THE BOUSE

Dominion, Volume 13, Issue 11, 8 October 1919, Page 8

THE BOUSE

The House of Representatives eat at 2-30 P.m. , T _, , , „ The Charles Joseph Jury Estate Empowering Bill (a privato Bill) was put through tho rcmiiimnj stages and passed. Seven days' leavo of absence was granted to Sir James Carroll. SUPPLY INTERCEPTED. When the question was put. that the House no into committee on the Estimates. , .. , Mr. G. WITTY (liiccarton) raised a point of order. Ho said that it had beon supposed that the. first item alono was being put to tho committee, but tho Estimates were in different shape, ana the whole class had been passed. It there had been an alteration then it was tho duty of ihu Chairman of Committees to have informed the House. He declared that a mean advantage had been taken of the House. Mr. A. S. MALCOLM (Chairman of Committees) said that he had nothing to do with tho compilation of tho Estimates or tho arrangement of them. He always took the Estimates as they were put into his liaiuh, and he hart not seen them until they were put into his hands on Friday. Ho had been advised bv a Departmental officer that the Uslimates were a little differently arranged, but ho (Mr. Malcolm) was not responsible for the preparation or the order of tlie. Estimates. ~ , , Mr. T. M. WILt'ORD (liiitl) said Hint if. was evident that, die House hud voted for move than it i.iiendeu to vote lor. The Chairman of Committees knew of the alteration made, but there was no obligation upon him to fell the House. The chairman m this had um[Uesiionablv been within the letter of his rights, but it had been the custom of tne House in tho past for the Chairman of Committees to inform the House, ol such changes, for tlio special benefit of nciv members. ;■ Mr. Malcolm: I named the page and (he amount when 1 put I In* question. .Mr. Jl ASSET said that there had been no intention on the part of tho Govern-

tnent to apply the guilloline, and ho was sure the Chairman of Committer had had no such intention. Air. Witty. Let us go Unci;. Mr. Alassey: "I don't know that we can go hack." He said that lie would be prepared to take the opinion of Mr. .Sneaker on the question. If Mr. Speaker said dial the House could i;o back, allowing the first item to stand as passed, he would raise no difficulties. AIR. SPEAKER ruled that the question was ono for llio committee- rather Hum for the House to deal with. COST OF LIVING. Sir. J. AI'COMBS (Lytteltcn) said that tlie cast of living was still rising. Another increase had taken place during the present month, and it proved either the futility of tho existing laws or the ■futility uf the Government. The value of the sovereign on the pre-war basis was now 12s. 73d. The cost of commodities, as indicated by the index numbers, had risen 4.3 per cent, in one month. This fact showed the weakness of Professor Fisher's scheme for fixing price levels by allowing tho amount, of •/old in the sovereign to fluctuate. After allotting for a brassage fee of 1 per cent, the speculator would have been able to make a profit of 3.3 per cent, in the month on the fluctuating currency. The moral was that the Government, i it was to protect tho people, must deal with profiteering directly. It must attack causes, not effects. Mr. M'Combs proceeded to tell the House something about the political attitude of the Labour Party in 1914. , , Sir. Massey: We want to get along with tho business of the country, and we don't care a pin about your politics. Sir. T. SI. AVILFORD (Hutt) quoted Australian statistics to show that there was moro unemployment ni Queensland than in any other Australian State, and also a larger number of strikes, the cost of living, as shown by index numbers had risen more in Queensland than in any other State. Tho Queensland increase from 18H to 1919 was G3.23 per ° Mr H. HOLLAND (Grey) complained that during the war Hansard reporters had been emnloyed by the Government to take verbatim reports of his speeches. Thev had been accompanied by detectives.' He objected to this use of an official reporting staff against the Governments opponents. He had asked the Minister of Defence for copies of the reports and had been refused. Sir. Holland sugs.'es-.ed that the wages of several classes nt public servants' outfit to be raised. J.lie prison svstem required reorganisation and reconstruction. Ho proceeded to tell the House that military defaults and other prisoners had l>e»n ill-treated. Mr P ERASER (Wellington Central) agreed that there was room for prison reform. He thouirht the prison fowl should be improved. Prison reform should take the form of a full recognition of the need of curative treatment in tho handling of criminals. „ Sir C f, ST-ATHAM' (Dunedin Centra!)'complimented the late Minister- of' Justice on the improvements effected m the Polico Department. THE ESTIMATES LEGISI^TIvTmiARTAIENTS. Tho House wont into eommitteo at 415 P The point raised by Mr. Witty earlier in the afternoon was adjusted by Mi. Malcolm to his satisfaction. Dr Newman annealed to the Government to do something for the temporary clerks in tho Legislative Departments. The=e men worked during session only, and they should be found regular employment during the recess. Sir William Fraser snid that he would bring the matter before Cabinet, Sir R \ Writfit made an appeal for increases for officers of tho House and other emnloyecs. Sir William Fraser said that salaries would 'be dealt with when the Supplementary Estimates were under consideration He' would eive no promises as to what mitfit or might not be done in respect of Individual cases. Sir Lnko asked that the yearly bonus to servants of the House, permanent and temnorary, should bo increased, in view of the increased cost of living. Sir William Fraser gave an assurance that the men would.bo fairly and justly (rented. . , , , , Sir. It. Sl'Callum fWaivau) asked for an announcement of the Government s intentions regarding the High Commissioner's office. Widows' Pensions. Sir. H. Poland fOUnemuri) .yged the Government to improve the widow s pension. He considered it absurd to pay a. larger pousion to the widow ot an epidemic victim than to another Mvidow. Tho pcusions ought to bo brought up to tho same level all round. Tho Dominion was imposing a great deal of hardship on many wiilows, . . The Hon. W. H. Homes said, the Government intended to improve the ( Wclling t on South) urged that no widow with young children should be forced.to seek work in onivr . maintain her family. Mr R A. Wright (Wellington Suburbs) said that tho position "wis very far from satisfactory. Tho pension, inadequate in itself, was out down'if a widow had an incomo of moro than J.JO a viT'' J. P. Luko (Wellington North) said there was really no peiiiiiin" at all. Tho pension was paid only in respect of children. The widow who had no children received no pesmon lie considered the Govornment would hi justified in paying* an adequate pension to every widow who lacfed the means ot living. . „ .. „ Pensions Policy. Tho Hon. W. H. Berries said the wholo question of pensions liati been considered by the Government, which felt that old-age pensions, widows' pensions, and mi itary pensions were matter* which \ oughA not to .be dealt with by a moribund Pailm. ment A new Parliament fresh from the electorates would bo sitting next year, and it would be able to take the pensions question in hand The provision that, had been made already by way of wai bcnn*. in addition to pensions, would bo continued over next session, so thero would be plenty of time Mr the new Parliament to reach a decision regarding pensions. Tho Government would not reduce this war bonus.' "This is a war Parliament, and it has. dealt with iiu matters," said Mr. Hemes. "Its special duty has been to the soldiers, lhe nox Parliament will have the duty of dealing with pensions generally and other domestic matters." An Amendment. The Hon G. W. Russell (Avon) moved to reduco the vote by £1 as an indication to the Government that the pension paid to ordinary widows, ought to be brought up to tho level of tho epidemic widows pension. Tho present position, ho said, was not creditable to tho country. Widows and orphans wero living under conditions of extreme hardship. He had been Minister of Public Health at tho time ot tho epidemic, and ho had scoured the full and hearty consent of Cabinet to his proposal to pay pensions at a relatively liberal rate to tho dependants of epidemic victims. He could tell tho Houso f ho bad determined at that tinio to use tho public sympathy aroused by tho epidemic as a levor to raise pensions generally. The Minister had said that tho question ought not to 'be dealt with by a moribund Parliamenl. The reply to that was that the widows and children were not moribund. They required food and clothing this year as well ns next year. Tho widows' pensions cost .£120,000 last year, and the Treasurer had been ablo to show a surplus of .£5,000,000. Taxation had not been reduced this year. The Dominion had plenty of money, and ho urged (lie Government to realise tho necessities of the widows and orphans, and not allow their hardships to continue until a now Parliament could provide the remedy. Mr. Massey Replies, Tho Frimo Slinister said he was soitv that Sir. Kussell, who had _ been ii Siinister only a few weeks previously, had moved a motion with the object of placing the Government in a difficulty. 1 The honourable member was well aware | that last, year's surplus had been not .65,000.000 'but. .M.IiOO.OOJ. and that since then the expenditure of the country had incruiscd by over .£1,000.000 a year. Where did that place the (ioverimu-iit? Hon. W. Nosworthy: He docs not "sir. Alassey. "I don't think he do;*." Tiio Government had felt that It

was merely doing its duty in making as generous an allowance as the country could afford to tho dependants of tho victims of tho influenza.epidemic. Tho cost had been large, but tho Government had accepted the recommendations made at that time by Sir. Russell himsolf. Then during tho wnr the Government increased the whole of the pensions by about fifty per cent. He had told the Houso already that a proposal was being brought down for increased pensions for men suffering from miners' disease. Tho Government meant to do the right thing and was doing so in somewhat difficult circumstances. Tho Government, added Str. Alassey, intended to deal with tho pensions question sympathetically. It was only a question of when. Did Sir. Russell know what his proposal, if adopted, would cost? The official estimate was iJ:S(i,fIOO a. year. People had got into the l;abit of talking in millions, but that money would have to bo found. Air. R. Somplo (Wellington South): Put the load on the backs of thoso well ablo to bear it. Sir. Alassey: That is always done. I agrco with that. In other words, every person should contribute to the expenditure of the country.in proportion to hi 3 ability to do so. Thero are some people who 'cannot afford to contribute anything. There aro some people who aro not paying as much as they should today, andijtliere are some people who a repaying too much. 1 recognise that _ a revision of our wholo aystoin of taxation is necessary. Rut we cannot undertake that during tho present session. Already there aro members who have informed me thoy intend to leave for their homes soon. Wo cannot keop this House sitting for much more than three weeks longer. It would bo unfair and unreasonable to do that. Is the honourable member who moved this amendment prepared to sit here till Christmas and ask the Governor-General to extend the period of Parliament, so that the elections can be postponed to next year? Sir. Russell: I aiu prepared to sit as lons as is necassary to do the country's business. . Sir. Massey: "If members think that, let thorn sav so. We have quite enough business to keep us going until tho end of the va-vr. But that would mean postponing tho elections until February or Starch." Str. Slassey proceeded to enumerate the' matters that must receivo attention. He mentioned tho Estimates, the Supplementary Estimates, the Public, Works Statement and Estimates, tho Appropriation Hill, two Education Bills, two Stining Bills, the Board of Trade Bill, and tho Womon's Parliamentary Bights ■ Bill. Tho Housing Bill, which contained some of the most important proposals of tho session, would probably go before Cabinet tho next day, but it wou'd. require further amendment before it was ready for the House. The Government and tho House, in the time availablo this session, could not deal with a proposal that would involve the readjustment of the country's taxation and a general sur- I vev of pensions. ' Mr. Russell: Yon can get all the money you want if you increase the' death du- j ties. , , , ~ ~ „ Sfr. Mnssej': "Exactly, by legislation. He believed it would bo accessary for Parliament to meet early next yoar, no matter what Government was in office. Sir Russell: What better than to in- i crease the death duties and use tho money for the widows and children? Sir Joseph Ward: You have got to wait until tho people die before you get death duties. Str. Stassev: Alembers of tho Government aro just as sympathetic as private members or the.people of the country, and arc just as anxious to do what is right. But there is the position. Wo must cither ask tho Governor-General to extend the l.'fe of Parliament or wo .must allow somo of this legislation to stand over until the new Parliament meets early in tho New Year. ■ sfr J. M'Combs said that tho House would put through the legislation necessary for tho improvement of the pensions scale in a very short timo. A Bait for Votes. Sir. J. A. Young said that ho would not. •vote for the amendment realised that it was a bait for votes, and that to support it would not help this Government or any other Government to give the children what tliey ought to get. It ill became tho member for Avon to move this amendment, in view of the fact that ho had inst stepped out: of the Government, of which ho had been a member for four years. Ho objected to tho springing of this question on the Houso in this. form. An Unreasonable Request.; The Hon. W. H. Hemes said that the amendment proposed something tl at could not be done by Parliament in tho present session. The member for toon had proposed that tho widows pensions lie raiser! to the scale provided for epidemic widows, but tho conditions tor tho iKvynient of these pensions were quite dilrcreut.ironi thoso for tho payment of widows' ordinary pensions. The amendment if carried would compel the Government to recast its whole pensions legislation, and would also compel tho Government to introduce now _ taxing legislation to provide an annual increase ofrevonuo of .£2SG,OOO. The House would not ask the Government to do such a thing. What he was prepared to do was to osk Cabinet to make some provision for widows so far as the money would go. Tho danger was that so soon as the old-age pensioners discovered that concessions wore bomg given to widows they would make demands, and there were many moro anomalies in tho okl-a*o pensions legislation than in tho other pensions law. One reason why tho Government did not wish to deal with pensions comprehensively at present was that tho war bonuses wero still being paid, and would be paid until peaco was ratified by tho belligerent nations, lhe war bonuses had created many anomalies. No Government could afford to have its-Estimates smashed to tho extent of a quarter of a million. Ho would promise to submit to Cabinet th« question of-b-rTnging down legislation dealing only with widows' pensions. But it the Government wero to do anything of tho kind the Hou6o niust iindortako to deal tairlj By the Government, and pass this and other legislation. ~ Tho Hon. 6. W. Russell said that tho promise of the Slinister was very vague. Ho would suggest that tho Estimates be deferred until Cabinet should consider the matter. Air. Herries: Oh, no. Air. Russell' urged that the Government should give some more definite undertaking to the House that tho question .would be. considered and legislation introduced this session. Tho Government Genuine. Sir. Alassey. said that lie required no prompting from tho member for Avon. Tho Reform Government had in 1912, on coming into office, mado tho Widows' Pensions Act more liberal. This was proof of tho genuineness of tho Reform Government in regard to this legislation. This amendment had now been sprung on the Government. Ho could only repeat his promise that tho matter would bo dealt with at tho .very first importunity. If thero should be an opportunity this session it would bo done, but there seemed to be tittle chanco of doing this with tho important legislation waiting. Str. Eraser: You could have done it to-night in tho timo we have been talking about it. Mr. Stassoy. "\ou could not havodono it to-night." Ho said that a Bill would involve revision of the. wholo pensions scale. Not a Case for Rush Decision, Sir Josoph Ward said that ho had been head of tho Government which introduced tho widows' pensions into NewZealand. The Rofonu Government had improved the Act in the light of experience. Ho was in favour of increase of the widows' pension, but ho would not support a proposal involving an expenditure of cßi!B«,ofifl iidditionail unless tho subject wero introduced by u Bill, and ample lime wore given for consideration of it, and ways and means provided lor the payment. This amendment, if carried, would invtf.vc n complete reviow of the pensions scheme. He would not for vote-catelling purposes support this proposal, which ho, considered unreasonable Ho accepted fully tho assurance given bv the 'Minister. Tho subject was emincnt'lv a proper one for consideration bv the ifoveriinieiit. Bo also pointed out t!i(! state of the session, saying that before many weeks members would bo most anxious to get away from here. Air. P.' said ho would 1:ko the Lender of the Opposition to come with him into some of the homes of the widows of this city. . , ~ Sir Joseph Ward: Oh, we go into then: the same as you.

Mr. Fraser: You seem to forgot about it- J >. Sir Joseph Ward: Oh, no, we don t. Mr. Praser: Wo in this part of the. House don't intend to let you forgo, about il. „ , l Sir Joseph Ward: We know all about it. Wo know about Wellington Central, too—enough to keep you out. Mr. Fraser went on to lell more about the plight of poor women and their claims for .relict. Mr. Jl'iissey: You wanted your screw raised. • ~ Mr. Nosworthy: Yes, and wanted it retrospective, too. Oh, Wb know nil about him. , Mr. Frnser still argued that the Government ought to bring down the legislation. Pleas for Generosity. jit. G. J. Anderson said that the Government ought to agree to bring down the desired legislation. Anomalies could be held over for another session, mil increases in tho pension need not be delayed. Ho refused to believe that tho session would be ended in a fewweeks. A big programme of legislation was coming on, and the House would have to sit until the work was done. Mr. Anderson was informed that tho Government had given an assurance that the matter would be considered by tho Government, mid he thereupon expressed a measure of satisfaction, saying that he would not press the demand further. Dr. Newman said that the present position was indefensible. A widow of a man who died of influenza received pension at ono rate and another widow at another rate. The condition of many widows at present was deplorable. They could not live at present high prices on the meagre allowances given. Ho urged that the Estimates could bear the added burden of a sufficient sum to increase the allowance. Doing the Impossible. Jlr. M'Combs said the Prime Minister had not made a definite promise. It was duo to the House that.ho should do so. Mr. Massey: I cannot do the impossible. Mr. M'Combs : 1 think you can. (Laughter.) Mr. Massey: The matter will be considered in Cabinet. Mr. Poland and ho could not accept the Government's plea, of lack of time. The House had time to deal with tho Auckland University Bill and the Polico Offences Bill; yet Ministers said there was no time to do justice to helpless women and children. He paid a tribute to tho Commissioner of Pensions, who was tho most sympathetic officer he. had ever dealt with. .

'Sir James Allen, dealing with the financial aspect of the matter, si id that the present cost of pensions was at the rate of .£2,520,000 per annum. He could assure tho House that ho had no surpUus buried away in' the Estimates. This year's increase of expenditure so far li.wl been JC3,777,000. The Supplementary Estimates: had still to be dealt with, and ho had heard they might add ,£1,000,000 to the expenditure. That would make a total of ,£1,777,000. Taxation had not been increased. Where was last year's surplus in the face of thoso figures? The Amendment Withdrawn, Mr. Russell, speaking shortly before midnight, said that the Government had XIi.OPO.OOO of the accumulated surplus atil'l in hand. A vote of .£112,000 would douK'e the widows' pension. If the matter was not dealt with this year, it probably would stand over for at least, twelve months. He asked for a definite promise from the Government. The Prime Minister had said that it could not be dene this session. Mr. Mnssoy: I did not. Mr. Russell: I bos your pardon l . Mr. Massoy: I should think you would. Mr. Russell: It is no use your trying your bullying with me. Mr. Russell was immediately called to order, and required to withdraw the word "bullying." This he did. He said lie wished Mr. Massey would accept tho view that the question was not ono of party. . Mr. Massey: It's not party. I know exactly what it is. Mi-. Russell: Well, I don't know what the lion, gentleman means. Mr. Massey than said that Jlr. Russell had challenged his figures regarding. tho cost, and he wished to make a statement. Thcro were 3300 widows concerned. To grant them pensions at the rate of JKIS would cost .£214,500. Then there were 8000 children receiving i!l3 a year, totalling JSHM.OOD, making thb grand total ,£318,500. That wns -what the change would cost. Those were the official figures. It wns not a fair thing to forco upon tho Government in a dying session. He did not know whether-it wns electioneering or not. Tho question was whether this matter could bo dealt with this session or not. An hon. member: That is the whole point. Will you give the Houso an assurance it will be considered by Cabinet? , , , , Mr. Massey: I have already done so. I suggest the question should go to tho vote at once. , . Mr. Russell said he had listened to the promise made by the Prime Minister and accepted his assurance. He asked for permission to withdraw his amendment. Tho Prime Minister, said he did not want any misunderstanding. He had experienced that sort of thing before. He had undertaken to make a recommendation to Cabinet, but he would have to abide by the decision of Cabinet. It was still quite possible that the matter would not bo dealt with this session. After tho election if ho occupied tho same position -he would bring it up at the earliest possible moment. • The amendment was then withdrawn, and the item and- class passed. After dealing with several olauses of the Estimates tfie committee adjourned at 2.5 a.m. and the House rose.