PARLIAMENT

Dominion, Volume 13, Issue 8, 4 October 1919, Page 10

PARLIAMENT

THE FINANCIAL DEBATE

WAR EXPENDITURE

MR. MASSEY DISCUSSES LOANS

The Legislative Council met at 2.30 p.m. yesterday. The Companies Amendment Bill was lead a third time and passfd.

AUCKLAND UNIVERSITY. Tho Auckland University College Site Bill was put through its liial stages and passed.

A DIVORCE AMENDMENT BILL. The Hon. SIR FRANCIS BELL introduced tho Divorce and Matrimonial Causes Amendment Bill, which was read a first lime. Clauses 2 to 1 of the Bill make special provision to enable women of British nationality who have been married to persons of enemy origin to obtain divorces from their husbands if I heir husbands leave New Zealand and remain absent therefrom for moro than twelve months. By clause 4 it is provided that tho fact that the husband may have desired his wife to leave New Zealand with him shall be no defence to a petition. In every such case the petition of the woman is to be granted unless collusion is proved. Clnuse 8 alters the lav; of guardianship with respect to the children ot women of British nationality married to husbands of enemy origin. Tu every such case the mother is constituted the guardian (with the right of custody of the children) unless the Supreme ' Court makes an order to the contrary. Clauso 9 adopts the provisions of Hie Matrimonial Causes (Dominion Troops! Act, 1919. This Act. confers on competent courts of the United Kingdom jurisdiction.' to entertain matrimonial proceedings in respect of marriages contracted during the war by members of His Majesty's i'orces domiciled outside the United Kingdom. The Act has no operation m any selfgoverning .dominion until it. is specifically applied by the legislature of thnt dominion. It is provided that clause 9 will come into operation immediately on 'the passing of the "Act. The other clauses aTe postponed until n date to be named by the. Governor ; Genernl in a proclamation issued in that behalf.

PROTECTION FOR BANKERS. The Hon. J. MACGREGOR moved that the Bills of Exchange Amendment Bill bo rend a second time pro forma, nnd referred to the Statutes Revision Committee. » The Bill provides that where a banker, in good faith Mid without negligence, pays a cheque that has been fraudulently altered, lio shall not bo liable for having paid it. The Hon. CI. LOUTSSON opposed the Bill because it introduced a dangerous d'ement, he said. At present, since tho banker was liable ho and his clerks wero educated to be experts in detecting fraud. Tho danger of the Bill was that it might make bank clerks less careful. It would, moreover, tend to encourage dishonest people to make fraudulent alterations in cheques, because 'they would know that the vigilance of the banlc had been lessened. He thought that, in any case, tho .bank wis' generally bettor aMe to bear the loss on a fraudulently altered cheque than was a inct-vory-wealthy draw;er. He had not heard of many bankers losing money over such cheques. The Hon. G. ,T. GARLAND moved an amendment to kill the Bill. He thought the matter was one for thr- Government of the day, find he objected to private members of cither House bringing up Bills 011 questions that were of first, importance to the country. Tho Hon. 0. SAMUEL was prepared to 6upport the, motion, because it provided for examination of the Bill!' by the Statutes Revision Committee, after a reading taken merely pro forma. The leader of the Council honed the Bill would so before the committee. : . The amendment was lost by 15 vote? to 5 ; and tho Bill was read a secoud time pro forma. The Council roso at 4.80 'p.m. theliouse FINANCIAL DEBATE. The House of Representatives met at 2.1)0 p.m. Mr. R. Scott (Otago Central) gavo notice uf the Taiori Land Drainage Hill. Tho ae&ue on the Budget was resumed. Mr. C. J. TALBOT (Temuka) reviewed the financial position in some detail. It was accurate, he said, to state that' the Government had mat no part of the war expenditure out of revenue. War pensions, and tho interest on var loans nad been paid from revenue, and these mado a very substantial total. The Dominion must exercise economy now, but it could not afford to neglect necessary works of development. Hydro-electric power wasi a national necessity. He did not object to the use of the accumulated surpluses to buy land for soldiers. The principal would remain and the interest would be at tho disposal of the State. But ho would have liked to see the gratuities paid out of the surpluses and fnus made a free gift to the soldiers. He would like to see an attempt made to prevent the passing on of taxation by devising taxes that would rest on the right shoulders. He suggested that the income limit for payment of income tax should be reduceS in the case of unmarried persons, while larger exemptions were given in respect of families. The land lax operated most inequitably, owing to. the treatment of mortgages. A man .was taxed on his debts as well as oil his possessions, and' the anomaly persisted through .the graduations. The mortgage tax ought to be reimposed. Soldier Settlor'n.

Mr. G. E. SYKES (Mastevton) defended Che proposals for soldier settlement. He said, referring to the speeches made by Sir Joseph Ward, and Mr. Jl. E. Holland (Grey), that it was desirable to encourage rather than to discourage itildicr settlers, Ho did not agree with the fcuggestion of the Leader of the Opposition for the delay of soldier settlement. Che boys hud been given an undertaking that they would get land on their, return, and thiii undertaking must be kept; but he did not agree that the present system of land purchase must, if continued, break down. He would urge tho Government to acquire land compulsoiily at fair values for tho soldiers, and ho could assure the House that this was the view of land owners in tho Wuirarapa, who throughout the war had tmne their part to help this country's effort:. I Mr. Massey said there were other places besides Wnirarapa whore this bad been done. Mr. Sykes said he agreed that tins was. 'so, but he spoke of tnis district because he was familiar with the circumstances. Mr, Mas&uy referred to the case of Mr. George' Hunter, Mi'. Mr. Sykes said that Mr. Hunter had given to the Government fur the soldier settlement MOO acres of land, worth X' 30,000. He wished to publicly Ihunk those land owners of the W'airarapa who had allowed the Government 1 to acquire their lands at pre-war valu itioii, and he mentioned Messrs. .1. U. Bidwill, A. I'. Whatman, and Fred. Jlofu'e. Soldiers settled on< theso lands should have n bright future. But the system of voluntary sulo and purchase had broken down. He proceeded to refer to the housing problem. The Government must do something to give the people relief. Hit. suggestions were that the Government should acquire sawmills, establish joinery faotoried, and manufacture in (he taclury standardised parts, in order to reduce the present high cost of bunding. In Maslerton the Government had erected in recent, years 116 workers' homes, and for energy displayed in this part of his work he wished to thank Mr. Massey. ilo hoped that the Government would oiler facilities for the immigration of soldiers of. the British Ariliy. Electric Power. Mr. Sykes added he was glad to nottthat the hydro-electric schemes were to be pressed forward. He was interested on behalf of Wairarapa in the Jlangahao 6ehome, but what the people of Wairarapa .wanted to know was whether they

would get any of the power, or how much t.hov would get. They feared that it would all be absorbed by Wellington and the West. Coasl. Already in Masterton there were works established which could absorb 3000 horse-power. He appealed to tho Government to improve tho lot of the school teacher, who was poorly rewarded in comparison with people in other walks of life. A small dairy farmer, with a herd of 'JO cows and 10 or 50 acres of land, would make more money than the head teacher of a large primary school.

, Labour Ideals. Mr. J. T. M. HORNSBY (Wairarapa), in a general reference to speeches in the fcoa'tS, "snfd that he would advise the momber for Wellington South lo beware lest ho Become known as a man of one speech. Thiae times this session he had made the same speech, using the same extravagant language. He was sorry to see War. the Budget contained no reference to increases in death duties. Ho had never approved of the policy of tho Government as to the method of purcliase of land for settlement. But ho did not think that all the speculation in land had caused all tho rise in values. There had been much speculation before the war. Indeed, for the oast 20 years there had l>een a cry that land was too ufgh'. Isufc there were reasons for the increases. Land was more productive because of the development of the dairy industry, and he thought it would be much more productive yet. He joined with Mr. Sykes in expressing appreciation of the generosity ot Wairarapa landowners. He approved of the proposals for the nationalisation of the coal mines, but urged that proper housing must be provided for miners. The Government must press on with the. hydro-electric schemes. New Zea. X&nS. was particularly suited to development by means of water power. If labour was not available within the country, the Government, should seek it outside, preferably in Great Britain. Turning to the Labour Party, Mr. Horasbv said the revolutionary wing was demanding the .release of military-default-er-: and the abandonment of all penalties imposed on the men who would not fight. But the Labour Party itself had decided that any person' who opposed an official Labour candidate in a Parliamentary election should be disqualified for six years for selection as an official Labour candidate. Where was the freedom of conscience? The real objective of (he leaders of the revolutionary movement had been disclosed at the annual Lalxmr Conference in Wellington. These leaders intended expropriation, and they openly anticipated violence.

The Fruit Industry, Mr. R. P. HUDSON (Molueka) asked for increased consideration for parents, who wero handicapped at every point under present conditions. The _ State ought to encourage large families by maternity assistance, housing provision, and taxation exemption. The education system did not. give a fair chance to the children of poor people, since the parents must be able to provide a substantial sum"of money for maintenance during secondary school training. The State should give more help to the- bright cliMren. He was glad to find that comparatively liberal provision bad been mods- in the Budget for public works. Much depended upon the method of expenditure, ojul he urged the Government to give fair treatment to the backblock settlers. Mr. Hudson described the difficulties faced by the fruit-growers during the war, and urged that they ought to be provided now with shipping snaco for the British ami South American markets. - Big crops wero in prospect, and a good export price, with a guarantee of "s. per case f.o.b. Wellington, could be obtained if shipping were available. Mr. H. G. Ell (Christchureh South): .Can the local market have them at 7s. per case? , Mr. Hudson: "Certainly. I will sell every case'T have got, next vear's crop, at Cs. per case-ss. per case." The fruitgrowers did not. want to see inflated prices. They knew people could not bo expected to eat apples at 9d., Bd., or even Gd ! . per pound.

Never Go Back to Normal. MAJOR HINE (Minister of Internal Affairs) said that the Loader of the Opposition lrnd asked when this country was getting back to normal. What exactly was the meaning of this question? Did it mean that the right hon. gentleman thought we might one day go back to "pre-war conditions of wages, industry ( working conditions, and finance? In these things we should never get hack to normal, and this must be one of the lessons of the war. The policy of the Government was intended to meet the new conditions of a new period, and he had no doubt that the electors would at the ballot-box show that they required a progressive policy such ns that of thn Government to moet the new state of affairs. .Sir Joseph Ward (who had just entored the Chamber): I said that we would never get 'back to normal. Major Hine. repeated that also the Leader of the Opposition had asked when we might: get back to normal, indicating n belief in his mind that the now conditions were going to be detrimental to this country. He failed to see how the Leader of the Opposition could "K. TPcfc- to the borrowing proposals of the Government. Could tfta honourable wntleman say that the items for which money was being borrowed were not nocessnr.v for the nrogress of the country? Sir Joseph Ward had said that we should not borrow within the country, but should"go on the market in England. Sir Joseph Ward denied that he. had made this (it,lament. Re hadsaid that it would be detrimental to this country ,to borrow 'i!) millions in one year locally, and he had named the amount to be borrowed in England. Mnior ITine referred then to Sir Joseph Ward's manifesto of a few weks iince. in which thnfc gentleman had said that this country ought to pursue it« self-reliant nolicv of borrowing within JCe'v Zealand. H» was in favour of the lintionali-'atiou of thn good conl mines. Belter housing would have to be nrovitied for the miners, and nlso a, contributory superannuation or insur-' ance scheme for their old age. But he would also say thf l strikes and lockouts should"be made, illegal. No section of Tien bad thp rieht to paralv.=e the industries of this country. Ami e.e for the promoters of strikes, he would have them out of the country quickly or inside four walls.

Soldiers on Land. He went on to. deal with' the statements of Sir Joseph Ward regarding tho settlement of soldiers on land. The suggestion had Ijeen that, the soldier' was going to be loaded down with taxation on account of 'the high price of (and. But men were being given land of a maximum value of ,£2.5(10 improved value, while lie paid taxes only on un- ' improved value. They would bear none of the taxation burdens. Major Hine referred to some other remarks of Sir Joseph Ward about valuations in llawke'" Bay, but those increases to which Sir Joseph Ward bad referred had occurred during the time he had Wen a member of the Government. Why had lie not dealt with this.matter while ho was a member, of the Government instead of desertin'g the National Government? Sir Joseph l Ward the second time in the evening): That is absolutely untrue. Mr. Speaker r.t once called "Order!" and Sir Joseph Ward withdrew the. remark, but declared with some heat that lie had not deserted the National Government, Major Hine said that lie had no fears for the future of the soldiers going on the land. Most of them were capable of .looking nfter themselves. His own observation was thai the greatest increases in land values had' occurred in respect of dairying lands, and this was merely the consequence of high prices of produce. The values at which the Government bought land for soldiers erred on the sid" "f orinservalisiii rather than generosity. He did not think it wi=e to suggest that ■the amount for soldier settlement should be reduced. Apparently the Leader of I ho Opposition and his parly were corrupted wilhjtliO' go-slow policy. Nor was it fair to ciyi! at. the Government for permitting so much trading in laud during the war. It was easy to be wiso now, but who ivould have said four vears i ago thai il would have been rieht for I the Government to lake steps to prevent sales of land. If the' Government had foreseen at all. no doubt it would have taken steps to prevent, it. Mosl of the aggregation that had gone on in.the i war period had been due to the absence of the soldiers from the country. He commended also the schemes now being!

introduced by the Minister of Lands for the settlement of soldiers on waste lands by developing them, and preparinj; them for productive occupation. He was strongly in favour of 11 vigorous immigration policy, and he was sure (hut (here would lie no difficulty in absorbing labour. Naturally, the soldiers would be absorbed first, but there would bono difficulty about this. The ex-Minister of Justice, Mr. Wilford, had declared for increased deatli duties. He (Major Hine) believed also that death duties on the higher gradations could be increased and that income tax on large incomes also could be increased. But these ex-Minis-ters, after being in the National Government for a long time, had had an excellent opportunity of observing the means of tho country, and it was not fair for them now to demand of a freshIv reconstructed Ministry that all tliMO things should bo done at once. It warf not fair criticism on the part of the members who had just left the Government after being acquiescent in existing conditions for so many months or years to blame tho Government for not doing everything at once.

Pononal Explanation. Pir Joseph 'Ward (Awarun) said the Minister had either shown want of knowledge or hod been guilty of misrepresentation. What lie (Sir Joseph Ward) hnd urged was Hint the soldiers must be settled properly ami that land must be found for them, toil, that it was not in the public interest to force up land prices to an oppressively high level! by expending fourteen millions on purchase within a short period. He had approved of borrowing within New Zealand. But he considered it imprudent and unwise to borrow very large sums when the war was over, and so increase the already very largo amount of paper money in thi! country.

Wealth of Taranaki. Mr. S. G. SMITH (Taranaki) Raid the Budget contained no policy. Mr. Massey had said the policy of the Government regarding education, would I>9 found in the Budget, but as a matter of fact the document gave scarcely any indication of intention, The Education Department was continuing to send the orightest boys and girts into other walks of life and to leave 'the Dominion without the teachers it needed. He made a. strong appeal for the construction of backblook roads. He, quoted cases of Taranaki settlors who, after years of struggle, had been compelled to throw up holdings owing to lack of access. He repeated his appeal for the refund of the butter tax to the producers. Mr. Massey: It is Wore a Parliament-ary-Committee now.

JTr. Smith: "I hope that if that report is favourable the Government will do justice to the producers," Mr. Smith referred to Taranaki's ironsand. The value of ironsand had been proved conclusively. A process of smelting was available. The difficulty always had .been lack of capital. A furnace was available in New Plymouth, and l»n suggested the Government should set. aside a substantial sum of money for the testing of Taranaki ironsand and Parapara ore. The oil deposits also should have Stale attention,' and he emphasised the importance of the Mokau coalfield. "As a matter of fact," added Mr. Smith, "Taranaki is the most wonderful province in New Zealand. It is the most thickly populated outside tho centres, and it is the best wealth-pro-ducing area in the Dominion." In conclusion, he assured the Government that the country was tired of party wrangles and profiteers, and that the future was going to see young New Zealanders running their own country.

More Pay For Members. Mr. JOHN PAYNE (Grey Lynn) said that it would bo better to have the accumulated surpluses in London against the time when lean years might come, and to raise the money for the settlement of soldiers by internal borrowing than to take the' surpluses now and spend them, No 0110 knew what tno future held for us. Prices might recede to such an extent that our finance might bo seriously upset. Ho said that the time was ripe i'or the adoption of socialistic measures in banking and insurance for the alleviation of taxation of the people, lie advocated the increase of the honorarium of members to «£6OO at least. In addition, the election expenses of tho elected candidate should be paid, and to the runner-up ,£l3O should be allowed. So also there should be a superannuation scheme for members. • "Make it retrospective," *; member, suggested, but Mr. Payne (lid not agree with this. He said that without an 111creaso in payment the best young business men of the country would never come into the House. In order to stop party bickering in the House and outside of it, he suggested that a courageous Government should establish a. censorship. \of the Press. , l-!el[). for the Soldier. Mr. R. W. SMITH (Waimarino). prefaced his remarks with an expression of his appreciation of the good service rendered to this country "by Mr. Rlassey and Sir Joseph Word on their visit to England. Tho most important work of the country nt present was the repatriation of tho soldier, and it was a task tha; would trv the resources of the countrv. The "Lands Department had done very much good work in the settlewent of the soldier, but he feared that thp purehnse of a farm for a fioMier or for two soldiers was not going to benefit the country, Settlers producing perhaps the best the land could l>c mado to produce wore being displaced by mexperienced men, often without finance. 1 The effect must be to reduce production. He advocated reforms in the methods of iond purchase. He strongly advocated increased assistance to the soldier, more promptly given, but there should not be so much delay in getting work through tho Lands Office. Inflated Values, Mr. W. T. JENNINGS (Taumarunui) said that tho inflated values of land were a source of grave danger to New Zealand. He still had memories of the Victorian land boom, and conditions here were nearly, approaching those which lmd existed prior lo the bursting of that boom there. He was glad to hear that the Minister of Lands was prepared to do something to. prevent the continuance of land aggregation. Many of the soldierh had gone on the land at values which would make it very difficult for them lo "pull through." Mr. T. W. MODI-IS (Thames) rtfprred first to some remarks of Mr. 1). A. 'Wright to the elTect that' if, as was alleged, gold miners suffered and died of luieumoconiosio. the mines should be shut down. Mr. 'Rhodes (who represents a gold mining took sharp exception to Mr, Wright's remarks. Mr. Rhodes went on to di=cuss land settlement, work and wages, industry, and other topics. Mr. F. MANDEU 'Marsden) said that the "go-slow" policy was a boomerang that was goinit lo strike back a\ the men who advocated it. lie pointed out that Labuur leaders in Britain and America wore recognising the vital importance of increased production. To increase wages without increasing production was to court disaster. • i MRJIASSEY IN REPLY THE FACTS ABOUT LOANS. The PRIME MINISTER, replying shortly before 1 a.m., said that he intended lo deal briefly willi one or two of the points thai had been raised during the debate. A good deal had been eaid of Ihe loan proposals of the Government. The expenditure proposed was set t'orlh clearly in the Budget and amounted, to ,£10,223,000. That might seem a formidable sum, but if members would examine the liudget further they would I find that of this tolal expenditure a sum of .CI 2,.500,0(10 was to come from I lie accumulated surpluses. Then there was (he <£10,000,01)0 now being raised. These two items made a lotul of .'>oo.ooo, and all thai money was provided for. ! Then cash in band and imprests fiinou.nt. I ed to over ,{!7,0l)0,000. It would bo seen, i therefore, thai practically the whole of the thirty millions was provided for without the necessity for further borrowing. Personally he did uol 'believe that it would he necessary lo raise another loan before September, 1920. lie could, no! make a definite s.laleinen! regarding Ibe present loan, which had not yet eWd, but he certainly believed thai the Government would get the whole of I lie' JtlO.flm.iHl-that had been asked for. He was aware that loans had failed in Australia lately, and tbr.t the British Government had been compelled to raise its' ' last 4 per cent, loan at iSS per cent., o|

discount, of ,£ls. That fact 6poke for itself and showed how impossible it ivould Ihj for the Dominion to raise a loan of uny size in Jiritiim ut tlie present moment. Jle wished to add that when the war expenditure ceased, and it was tapering oil' now, there would bo mi more compulsory landing, and that the loans then raised would pay incume lax. There seemed to bo an impression abroad that the (Jovernment had spent very large sums of money on the purchase of land for soldiers. This was not tho case, Do had the figures in his hand, and they showed (lie advances for the purchase of tho fee simple of .Native and private lands. The total under this head, ing was „t2,3fi0,i50. That was a very considerable sum, but it was not so largo a sum as some people appeared to 'believe had been expended in land purchase. JIo could not accept the proposal that there should be delay in Ihe purchasing of land for soldier settlement. Soldiers could not be kept hanging about waiting for land. They must he settled quickly. It was a wrong impression that soldiers were mostly being settled on land purchased from private individuals. The area of unimproved Crown lands settled by or set apart for soldiers was acres; the area of partially improved land purchased from privaleowners was 288,000 acres, and the area purchased- by soldiers with Government assistance was 274 acres. He agreed with the generally ! expressed opinion that it would be bettor to put all the men on unimproved Crown lands if this were possible, but it was not possible. Some men did not wish to go on this class of land and others were not fit to go upon it. Mr, Massey concluded his speech after bevur only n few minutes on his feet, fiayiiiß- that ho did not thinly any good Surpose ivould be served ]>j der&ining the louse ait that hour of the riinrhing. The House went into Committee on the Estimates forthwith.

Salaries of Members, On the first item, Sir Joseph Ward said thot there was a general agreement that something should bo done to increase the salaries of members for next Parliament. h\ his opinion something should be done. Mr. Massey: 1 quite agree with the opinion of the. Leader of tho Opposition. The sum paid;to members of Paiiiament for their services is, under existing circumstances, quite inadequate. I think the matter should be taken-in hand, and I propose to make a statement as soon as possible. The first item was passed without any other remark, and the House rose at 1. a.m.