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A PARTY WRANGLE

THE GRATUITIES

HOUSE RESUMES DISCUSSION

SIR JOSEPH WARD SUGGESTS , INCREASE

MOTION TO REFER BACK

The debate on the gratuities question wis resumed in the House of Representatives yesterday afternoon on the adjourned motion that the statement of the Government's scheme (embodying tho rate .of Is. 6d. per day) should be laid on the table and printed.

Sir James Allen sai<l he wished to refer to several questions that had been raised relating to,gratuities, and to place before the House some comparisons between, the New Zealand rates of gratuity and the Canadian 'rates. • The men who had-served on the Philomel would receive the same- griituity as members of the Expeditionary _ Force. The, men who had spyit periods in hospital in New Zealand 'after disembarkation wero covered, in hia opinion, by the provision that a, minimum gratuity for eighteen months should be paid, whatever tho date of disembarkation. But if this provision did not do full justice to ail the men, lie would be prepared to make a suggestion that lie hoped would get over the diwcully. Ho had been in consultation with hi 3 officers on the point. . v

Canada and New Zealand. The Minister of Defence proceeded to make a comparison between New Zealand and Canadian rates. He quoted first some •figures that he had already given in a slightly, different form, showing the Canadian gratuity' to a single man, as against the New Zealand gratuity plus New Zealand's extra pay, privilege leave, and railway concessions: , , ' ■ Canadian N.Z. N.Z. Period. Gratuity. Gratuity. Total, &, s. d. : £ 0. d: & e. d. 11 months 43 15 0 '25 2 6 45 2 6 23 months ,58 G 8 52 10 0 80 10 0 85 months 7218 4<79 17 6 M 5. Jjj 47 months 87 10. 0 107 6 G 150 -2 9 4 vrs. 278 '• ■»'«-- <„ « . days 87 10 0' ISO ,8 6 179 13 1 The Canadian • Government, continued the Minister, paid a separation allowance to the wife but not ,to the child of a ? oklier, whereas New Zealand paid separa-j tion allowance to both'wife and child.' In making' a comparison, between the Canadian and New Zealand payments to" the married private without children, the Minister credited Canada with an advan* tage in tho amount of separation allowance and New Zealand with extra pay, privillege leave, railway concessions, and separation 'allowance during the ; period of privilege leave. His comparison was as follows:— PRIVATE WITHOUT CHILDREN, Canada, New Zealand. Period. £ s. d.. £ s. d. 11 months' 76 16 8 <9 6 1 23 months 98 2.6 - 84 5 8 35 months 111. 4 2 119 5 8 :47, months ■ J3O 210 154, 6 9 4 yrs. 278 days 132 8 3 t 183' 17 1 Tho comparison beoame 1 much more favourable to New Zealand ,if> there were oliildren to be taken into account. The Canadian soldier received no separation allowance for children, whereas the New Zealand soldier received an additional sum for each child on the. following scale:— . " £ 5. d. 11 months '25 2 6 ' 23 months 52 10 0 7 35 months .... 79 17 6 47 months 107 6. 6 4 years 278 days ... 130: 8 6 Tho-difference in the total emolument' of a married private with children in Canada and in New Zealand was' shown in tho following figures, the comparison being in favour of New Zealand all cases except the first sum in the first column:— . ' v , One ; Two ' _ Threo child, children.' children. .j? s.d. -iis. d. £s. d. 11 months' 6 1 .O" 36 18 5 54 211 23 months 40 15 2 95 . 7 2 149 19 2 3.1 months iB7 7 0 169- 0 0' 25tf 19 7 .47 months 133 12 6 2-|3 011 352 19 5 ■ 'Less. The Minister added that "in addition to the moneys already mentioned, i financial assistance had been granted to New Zealand soldjers in casos of hardship as from January 16, 1917. The average annual payment per applicant !iad Been £30. Canada had no 6cheme of financial assistance. New Zealand's financial assistance was. a gift to , the soldiers, and did not roquiro to be repaid. : The estimated total of the war service gratuity in Canada was, roughly, j!20,000,000. The New Zoaland total was .slightly more, than j6{5,000,000. Tho Canadian gratuity, on a population basis, ought to amount to to equal tho New Zealand liability, Tho- Minister mentioned that home service gratuity wis included in the Canadian total but not in the New Zealand total. If this amount, were deducted the comparison would be increasingly in New Zealand's favour., Tho Minister, 'in conclusion, stated what New .Zealand had done for tho soldiers under the repatriation and pension schemes. ' Tho Prune Minister stated that no thought 20,000 copies of the Minister's statement should printed and circulated for the information of the people of New Zeuland.

THE LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION

ASKS FOR INCREASE.

Sir Joseph Ward (Leader' of the Opposition).said that the. statement mado by the Defence Minister had proved that it would have been unwise-to have proceeded with' the discussion on the day of the introduction of the proposals. Even tho Minister himself had asked {or time to give consideration to one important matter. He referred to tho point raised the previous day-tho difference in gratuity to tho men in hospital in England and the men recovering in, a, hospital in New Zealand. It was surelv improper to, make any such differentiatibn betweon two soldiers on account of 'the hospital in which they wero laid up. Ho disapproved af the circulation of the statement of the' Minister because it was misleading. It was surely unfair to add allowances, privilege leave, and finch things to the New Zealand payment, for the purposw of comparing gratuities. The . National Government had Been generous to the soldior in pay and allowances, but in assessment of gratuity to bo paid he dill not think the Government should take count of these generosities for the purpose of reducing tho amount of tho gratuity. He objocted particularly to tho calculation of the privilege leave railway pass at .£6, for it was on the State railways, and it cost tho country no-

thing. Sir James Allen: The Defence Department has paid the money. ; Sir Josoph Ward: That is a paymont from one Department to another, a book entry. Mr. Nosworthy: It is money paid for out of loan. »

'Sir Joseph Ward: "That is so." He went on to say that ho would not count privilege leave either, for the purposo of comparing gratuities. Ho had no wish to hamper tho Government in regard to this mateer. As a private member ho knew that tho House could make no change in tho gratuities scale, and the responsibility must remain on tlio Government. The only thin? privnts members could do was to make suggestions to tho Government. Details of Requests, His first suggestion would bo that married men should get more than single men. The allowances had not been sufficient to koep their wives and families, and tho proposals in the gratuities scalo were not adequate for married men. It appeared that men of the Philomel wera included in tho schemc, but what about tho men of tho mercantile marino in tho emploj- of this. Government in the

war zone? Nor was there any provision for tho mine-sweepers: Ho thought theso men wero deserving of recognition, for they had run gravo risks, just as the men of tho Amy had done. Nothing was in tho scalo about nurses. Sir James Allen: All the.. nurses aro included. They aro members of tho N.Z.E.R Sir Joseph Ward: All the nurses? Sir James Allen: All nurses of tho New Zealand Army Nursing Scrvico aro included. V.A.D.'s aro not included. Sir Joseph Ward said that it was a question whether V.A.D.'s should not be included. Sir James Allen: They have had their , pay. Would you like to havo tho y.M.C.A included? ■ • Sir Joseph Ward: "No. I would not." He wont on to say that" ho thought tho Y.M.C.A. had been treated fairly. He returned to the question of tho men returning to New Zealand for treatment. . Mi'. Pon/lo: They were brought back the sake of economy. Sir James Allen: We have fixed eighteen months' minimum to meet their case.Sir Joseph' Ward put the case of the men enlo'sting, being returned, and then, re-enlisting. It seemed that only the second period was to count. ' Sir James Allen said that both periods would, count for gratuity, and to both periods the minimum of eiehteen months would apply. _ . Sir Joseph Ward said that this was quite satisfactory. He made an appeal for payment of gratuity from date of enlistment, pointing out that many men hud given up good salaries to go into nnmp. It would cost some money, but it was, in his opinion, fair, and the Government should pay. He objected to the introduction into this gratuities question of such matters as loans to the soldiera. We should treat the Boldiers with liberality. Two Shillings a Day? He was in favour of the payment of a gratuity of 2s. a day. It was'less than lie had fixed in his own mind some time ago as a proper rate to pay. There had been no opportunity for disoussion of. this question in the National Government. Sir James, Allen: It was brought up before you left.. Sir Joseph Ward: I don't think so. Sir Jaines Allen: And settled. I made a statement in the House on. it. Sir Joseph Ward said that that statement had been made to him first in the House, and he understood that the statement had been made on the. authority of the Prime Minister. He would movo that the matter be referred back to tho Government for reconsideration. The Motion Seconded. The Hon. W. D. S. Hacßonald (Bayof the motion. He said ho had no wish to harass the'. Government, but he had always held the opinion that no. recompense this conntry could give wouild bo at alll adequate for the services given by the soldiers. He believed every member of Parliament was niixibus to deal fairly with the soldiers, and he hoped that yet a scheme would be evolved which would be universally' approved. Ho urged the Government to allow the scheme to go baok for further consideration. Ho wished it- to be clear that he did not 6tand with any section, nf people, wen soldiers, who made demands of the Government at the point of tho bayonet. But it was of the utmost importance that wo sjicuCd come to a fair and just-conclu-sion, even a generous conclusion. Mr. Hanan on Wealth.

The Hon. J. A. Hanan (Invercargill) said that he was not influenced wholly in this matter by. comparisons. When the question was raised as to whether New Zealand should 6end more men, the argument,jwag raised that wo should not, because' other countries had not sent so many. That argument was rejected. Ho declared that the wealth .of New Zealand hiid not been reduced,' biib increased, by the war. There were evidences of,wealth on every hand, and wealth concentrated largely in tho hands of. the few. New Zealand was jn a pood position to do well by the soldiers of New Zealand. So lonp as there wero men in tho country with wealth above .£3o',ofto, or with property' worth up to a million, we could not be said to be doins our duty to the soldiers. That wealth would have been confiscated if the country hod been conquered, if -there had not been bravo men to fiulit for it. The first obligation of the Government wan, to provide for those men, land more should_ be done for them under this gratuities scheme. A Fair Basis. Mr. W. Downie Stewart fflunedin ■West) said that it was almost impossible to arrive at any principle by which a conclusion could bo reached as to what was a fair gratuity. The only ways, it seemed to him, were to make comparisons with other countries, or to'coupider the opinions of the returned soldiers themselves. Tfe did not accept the opinion of tho Leader of thtf Opposition that in, an assessment of what should .be paid no account should bo taken of paj-ments to the soldier under other heads. There was danirer of,further delav of settlement. There had besn no party conflict up till_ the present on this question, but. it mieht easily' be raised by outside discussion inftuencin? members. He would urge the acceptance of the Tate of Is. G<l. a dav. The Returned Soldiers' Association ha'd adopted the idea that th» grntuitv was a gift, and that they shoiild iot "loolc a gift hor-e in the mouth." But so far as they had exnressed an opinion they had suggested a less amount limn that now offered. He thought the soldiers generally favoured the flat rate as now proposed. Of much more importance than gratuities was the need for pntting our pension scalo on a scientific basis, having regard more to economic disability than to mere physical disability. Labour Attitude. Mr. H. Holland (Grey) said that tho questiou should havo'been introduced to the House in tho form of a Bill. He had always said that no payment could over be adequate for the sacrifice of the soldier,'and that there could bo no equality of eaoriiice whilo one man gave his life and another would) not) give his money. ' Mr. Isitt: Did you urgo anybody to go? Mr. B'olland: I would have asked you to go if there had been ajiy chance nf your going.An hon. member: He sent his sons to fight for you.' Another hon. member: One of his sons died for. you. Mr. Holland: "I hope honourable membera mil discitss this matter apart from side issues." (Hear, hear, and laughter) He declared: "I would not he cowardly enough or mean enough to shelter Biyself behind my sons going." So he continued for some time. At length ho said that thfc Labour poople would support tho demand of Jtho soldiors for 4s. a day, 2s. in cash, and 2s. in war bonds. Mr. Leo: Why not all in cash ? Mr. Holland said that in fclie meantime tho soldiers asked for half paymont in bonds. He would not object to tho payment of the whole in cash if tfliis would not delay payment. The Labour' Party objected to payment from embarkation only, and to l.he stopping of payment on disombarkation. Payment should bo continued to discharge. . Sir James Allen: Tou say that? Payment to discharge? ' Mr. Holland: Yes. Sir James Allen: Then the eoldiere will not thank you. ' Mr. Holland prooeoded to discuss at some longtli tho wealth of tho country and its ability, to pay. Appeal for the Sailormen. Mr. C. H. Poole (Auckland AVest) made an appeal on behalf of the men of the merchant service. Ho confessed that lie was ."out of his depto" in discussing questions of whether or not tho Government should pay more in gratuities or not. But tho men going down to tho sea in ships had done the Empire a yroat service. Nowhero was'it on record (hat a single British crew refused to nut to sea for fear of the German. They were not well paid for their work. He was in favour of sending tho document back for further consideration, in order that tho Government might givo somo attention to the case of the merchant seamen,

Major Coatcs: What is the difference between tho wages of a soldier and the wages of a fireman?

Mr, Poole admitted that there was a difference in pay, but he would not admit that there was much point in this. Tho sailors had been rendering very valuable alternative servico to tho Empire, and they should now havo recognition by way of gratuity.

Going One Better. Major Hino (Minister of Internal Affairs) said that ho quifco agreed that tlio merchant service' deferred all that could bo said to their credit and lion pur, but ho did not agree that the Government ought to provide gratuities for thorn under this schcmc. Thero were shipping companies employing these men, and the shipping companies ought to pay, and pay well, flu was ready to agreo that 110 money pa) men t was adequate to compensate the soldier for his service, and ho wag also ready to agree that the leader of the Opposition was concerned chiefly for the welfare of the soldiers when he moved his motion,. But 110 had a suspicion that if the Government had brought down a scheme for 2s. a day the Opposition would have asked for 2s. Cd. a day— I would have "gone ono better." He was willing lo consider the case of the merchant ferviee men when the opportunity ofi'ered, and if a scheme were proposed he would give it such support as he could. The aim of the Minister of Defence in this scheme I had been to see that ,10 soldier was forgotten, lie would direct the-atten-tion of the House to the scheme the National Government had proposed last year. Under that schcmo an unmarried private would have received .£5 ss. a year, and a married private 47 10s. But •■an officer of, say, the rank of major would have received XU a year if married, and XtO if single, ''Personally he favoured tlio flat rate. ?he officers" had perhaps carried more responsibility, but they had generally been well paid 'for Sir Joseph Ward: They were the worst paid officers that went to the war. Mr. Massey:, Yes, up to a point. Sir Joseph Ward'said ::hat the officers ought to have recogaitioa for their insufficient pay, Mr. Masspy: Did the honourable gentleman say that when ho was on his feet before ? Sir Joseph Ward: Who is making this speech? (Laughter.) . _ Mr,. Speaker: There are too many interjections. The Soldiers and ihe Five, Major Hine 6aid that the "immaculate five" in the House had no right to speak for Labour. Ninety pur cent, of the P®JP'° oi ' this country were workers. ' But," he said, "when ive went to the war, these people were .saying that nobody should go. They -vere applauding the man going to gaol to dodge his military duties." It was absurd,' he continued, for the Labour C3;tremists to suppose that because they were advocatiug 4s. a day they would bo ablo to drag tho soldiers of this country at their chariot wheels. That would never happen. ' Mr. Holland: You wait till tho soldiers vote and you will find out. Major Ilino said that 110 personally, as a soldier, ivas satisfied with the gratuity, and ho believtd that tho soldiers generally would bo favourable to it. Appeal to Reason. Sir John Pindlay (Hawke's Bay) suggested to the Prime Minister that he should consider tho question now submitted iira spirit of sweet reasonableness. ' Mr. Massey: • Hear, hear, i wish the Opposition' would, . Sir John Fiiullay , said that the Minister of! Defenco ha:l himself given tho strongest of reasons for further consideration by his admission that he was not yet prepared to maio a declaration to the House, 011 ono point, Ho suggested to the Prime Minister that this 'concession now ask(d might 'be done without show of reakiiess. If tlio Prime Minister would' iako tho scheme hack for more consideration, then the Opposition might easily cmio to the agroe.ment that, they would accept it on its next appearance without .-further question. Another reason why ho would press the Prime Minister to take the scheme back was the mailt of tho proposal made. Was. thero a more pathetic spectaate in the country than the married man with a family struggling with Sho high cost of living? Mr. Massoy mutst, and no doubt did, realise this. This payment was called a gratuity, 'but it was in truth a, payment by way of assistance. If the idea was to give him some reoognition of good service, then the gift might be a medal ■or something of tlio kind. Ho was in favour of,giving t.lio married men something more. For his part, ho would hot find fault with tlio rate, accepting it as a rate for a single man, But ho would still appeal for more tho married men.

Tllfe PRIME MINISTER

NOT-A PARTY QUESTION. The Right Hon. W. I'. Massey (Prime Minister) sand that a ve.-y persuasive appeal had been made to liim to reconsider this matter. Sir Jolir. Findlay had aSked far moro for the irarried mon. This had not been the chief appeal of tho Leader of the Opposition.. Sir John Findilay: I spoke for myself. Mr, Isitt: And-the Lwler of the Opposition did not speak for us. Wo don't want this to be a .party question. , •

Mr. Masscy: "Hear, hew. 1 don't want it to bo a piiity auestiai, and lam sure the member, for Christchurch North dobg not want it to be a parly question." He said that he had been asked to make n certain concession, and lie admitted that thero wero occasions when concessions could property be madn. He' had tried to do right in his position as head of the Government. On one occasion ho had disagreed with tlio heads of the Empire on a certain nu.tter, nnd ho had offered his resignation, but in the end he had his way. In this matter tlio duty of the House was to try to do tlio Tight thing not only> for tlio 6oldiers kit for the people of the oounlry. Hg appealed to honourable members to consider what had been the effect of the tot on the finances of the country. The wax had cost a hundred millions, involving an an. nual interest cliargo of 5J millions. War ponsions would cost two millions a year— it total of 7£ millions per annum. And this was not all. Whilii he believed that tlioy were doing their duty to the soldiers generally, ho was not sum that they were • doing all they could for tho men'who were partially disabled and for rhc dependants of thoss wlio had fallen. This was oao of tho tiings ho intended to look into.' ' Whatever position lis might'occupy in the House this was one of the matters which would engage ,Ins attention. ■ But the men who would reeeivo the gratuity would bo for tho most part strong, active, virile men, and he thought the disabled snen were entitled to mora consideration than the strong men. . In Other Days. He had been .tempted to recall what had occurred' at tho time of the Boer War. If ho rememl.ered aright there was a Liberal Government in oltice then! Two members of it,wero.sitting opposite to him now. What were the gravuities paid then ft Mr. Wilford: Utterly inadequate. Mr. Massoy: Yes, bar; who said so?. An lion, member: But that was not a world war. 'Mr. Masey: "It was a serious war which wont on tor three years." Ho told of the gratuities of that for a lieutenant-colonel -and .EICO for every year of service. But the difference for' ; tho offioevs was very marked. Tho private soldier received only -Co. An hon. member: But that was nineteen yeai'3 ago.

Mr. Massey: "And the honourable gentleman is nineteen years wiser. Tho country is also wiser, if it had not been wiser,, I should not have been in my present position." Ho went on to say that there was really no reason for delay. An lion, member said that tho Defence Minister had osked fGr two days. Sir James Allen: I din't need two days. 1' am ready now. Another Objection to Delay. Mr. Masaey said tl'at another reason against delay was that men were applying already for tho ;;ratuity. Ho had just had ft memorandum to say thai 500 soldiers lutd applied [or gratuities, and not one of them had expressed anything but satisfaction with tho gratuities.

Mr. Wilfrid: Have they been paid ? Mr. Massey: "No; I am not sure that wn have not authority to pay, but wo don't intend to do it." He said that lie had had several letters from soldiers expressing satisfaction with the gratuities. . , . \

Mr. Poole: What about the sailors? An hon. member: They're at sea.

Mr. Massey: The hull, member will be at sea before tlio nigl-.t is < ver.

Mr. S. G. Smith: You will find that you are overboard after the elections. (Laughter.) Mv. Massey said ho recognised the nation's obligation to tho men of the mercantile marine, but, they wore, not covered by a military gratuity, 'i'ho seamen had been receiving a special war bonus, with an additional bonus when passing through the war zone. The Returned Soldiers' Association had been consulted about tho gratuity, and expressed themselves as satisfied with a smaller gratuity than was now proposed. .Sir .Tolin Findlay: Don't you think there should be differentiation in favour of married men? Sir James Allen: They don't want that. Sir John Findlay: I am asking the Prime Minister. Mr. Massey: I think you had better put that question on the Order Paper. (Laughter.) Tho Prime Minister emphasised that the gratuity was not payment, and was not intended to be regarded as a measure of the soldiers' service to the country. . Ho intended to make inquiries regarding the mercantile marine, with the object of doing justice to the seamen. The officers would not receive recognition without tho sailors also, receiving'something.

The Party Taint. Mr. Massey added that he was not going to express any opinion as to what had taken place. But ho could tell the House what the public would say. and think. The Loader 01 the Opposition, when the scheme . was first presented, asked that discussion should bo. adjourned. That wag agreed to. What reason did tho Leader of the Opposition giv'e for that adjournment? Ho said that he wanted to consult his party. Now he had come down with a proposal that the proposals should be referred back to the Government. Ninety-nine people out oh one hundred would say that this had been doilo with;ft party motive, and it was very regrettable that this should be 60. Sir Joseph Ward: lour proposals in tlio Budget are party from end to end. If you want to talk parly wo will talk it. Mr. Massey: What about'your, manifesto ? Sir Joseph Ward: That is a very fine document. . . Mr. Massey: "There is no such thing as a paxty proposal in tho Budget. I do hope that before the end of this session a groat many of the proposals contained 111 tho Budget will 06 provided for in legislation. If that is not done, it will not be my fault or the fault of those working with me." Mr. Massey added that the impression created was that if the .Government 'had proposed 2s. Gd. the Opposition,would have gone one better. He was prepared to do the right thing according to bis own judgment, and if the public did not approve he would be prepared to accept tlmir judgment on polling day. He had been at tine head of affairs for seven and a half years, the most strenuous years in the Justory of the country, and he" "was ready Ito take responsibility for what lie had done. He had dono what he', thought was right regardless of party advantage. He. would fix the date of the general election in the same spirit, Sir Joseph Ward, in personal explanation, said ho had asked for an adjournment when the paper first appeared, because be and other members wanted time to examine the scheme. The .people were entitled to judge for themselves wlmt had ocourred. The Liberal Party had not done anything that was wrong or unconstitutional. The days of the National Government had gone past. He intended now and in tie futuro to exercise his rights as a member and as leader of a party, and he did not think the Primo Minister's suggestions of mo.tivo liad been justified. ; ' Three Shillings a Day. Mr. H. Poland (Ohinemnri) said the pension rate.was full of anomalies. It was regrettable that the soldiers had been consulted at all about gratuities. The Government had been slavish in its promises to the soldiers, but it iliad not redeemed its promises. It had required to be forced into each concession to tho soldiers. Mr. Poland proceeded to charge tho Government with having been niggardly in tho payment of separation allowances during tho war. Ho considered the soldiers wero entitled to 3s. a- day, ~the amount which- most of them had been required to allot to dependants in this country. The Dominion had over fifteen millions of accumulated fiutplus in hand, and could well afford to double tlio proposed gratuity. Country Can Pay. The Hon. A. M, Myers (Auckland East) said that Major Hino had gone to tho war to fight for an ideal, expecting 110 reward. In this he was typical of many soldiers, and it was to be expected tlmt ,ho would bo- prepared to tako any 1 p-atuity offered. When the proposals first appeared most members I were prepared to accept them, But on mature consideration, and after, communication and consultation with soldiers and others, especially on conditions)' of the bonus, he was now inclined to suggest that tho question go back for further consideration. Tho only xeal test .of what gratuity should bo paid was tho ability of the country to pay. He quoted banking and other figures to show that the soldiers could, without risk, be paid moro. • Tho country was rich and could afford to pay; Sir James Allen: You say tliat as oxMinister of Finance? , Mr. .Myers: Yes. Sir Jamesi Allen: Come and take over, then. Mr. Myers: "At the proper time I will bo'glad to do so." He said that tho country was rich and well able to carry tho load. ... ■ Sir James Allen: Without extra taxation? ■' Mr. Myers did not reply to this question. He said merely that tho taxation of New Zealand was put on the shoulders, of those best able to bear it.-_ He was not making these observations in a party spirit, Ho had not been present at the caucus that morning. Mr. Massey; Was there' a- caucus today? ... - , Mr. Myers: '"No, a meeting. Ho said that the Prime Minister knew well the duties of- the Opposition,, having been in the position of leader of the party for so long. Sir James Allen: What are the duties of tho Opposition? To opposo evcr'y- • thing? • , . ' Mr. Myers said that the Opposition should demand for everything the fullest possible consideration. He appealed to the Government to givo tho soldiers a -war bonus similar to that given to most civilian workers here. Mr. A. Harris' (Waitemata) 6aul that lie would support the principal motion that the'paper be laid on the table. He admitted, the general proposition that married men should receive moro consideration than single men, but the allowances and financial assistance to mar-, ried men had done much to make ui to them for tlio diffcrencc in their caso. i Nothing could work greater harm than a party wrangle in -the llouso on this question, and ho disapproved of the amendment, a mere subtcrfugo for party nurnoses. to send this schemo back fn , ; | more consideration. Mr. Harris considered tlmt the gratuity was adequate. Ho suggested that the Government had not given proper consideration to tho claims of ■ I widowed mothers. The gratuity, whatever the rate, would not bo adequate recompense for what the Boldiors lmd donei ' But reasonable people had to reahao that thero was ci limit to tho finanpial capacity of tho Dominion. Tho Government had gone as far as it was fairly entitled to go. Mr. J. T. M. Hornsby (Wairarapa) said tho soldiers within his circle of acquaintance wero satisfied with the Government's proposals, and were angry and disgusted at what had ton done in Wellington in their name. The position was that some , iv-turned soldiers had had their cupidity aroused bv tho offers put forward by j some members of Parliament. Tho matter ought, to have been settled by tho ! National Government. j

A member: Were you satisfied with th" National Government? Mr. Ilornsby: No. I left tho National Government, as I frft tho Liberal leader, Sir Joseph Ward, localise I was dissatisfied with the disinclination of that genfle.men to moot tho demands of tho «cidicrs.

Sir Joseph Ward: You never said that. M n Hornsby proceeded to condemn tho Labour members. They, had done .their best from the platform to induce men not to go to tho front,_ Labour members: Who said that?

Mr. Hornsby: You did. You all said tlmt.

Members: It's a lie. That's a lio. The Speaker: Order. Order. -Mr, ,1. M'Combs (Lylteiton): As applied to mo tlmt is undoubtedly a lie. The Speaker 'Jirocl;>;l Mr. M'Combs to withdraw the word and express regret. Mr. M'Conibs complied, lie added that the statement had undoubtedly been inaccurate.

M.r. Horns)),v said ho "liked to hear thorn yowl." It showed they were 'hurt. Mr. p. Frasor (Wellington Central): We don't nibble at the Government cheese, anyhow. Mr. W. T. Jennings (Taumarnnui) advocated increased payments to the married men. Money to Burn. The Hon. Ci W. Ru&cll (Avon) regretted that the gratuity question was beinc settled by the Minister instead of by Parliament", which had no voico in the matter. It was a pity that so important a question had not been settled by the National Government, representing both sides. Sir James Allen: It was settled. The Government considered the matter in tlio Cabinet-room last year and decided it.

Mr. Russell: The scheme as brought down was not the scheme of tho National Government.

Sir James Allen: The scheme of last year was. . ' Mr. "Russell said he would, make ihis own speech, and would not discuss Cabinet matters. He considered that the gratuity should be larger and that it should be paid out of the accumulated surpluses and not from "borrowed money. The country t would be shirking its responsibility to tho soldiers if it did not do' more than -was propos- | ed. Enormous increases in national wealth had taken place during the war, and the Dominion could afford to do full justice to tho soldiers. The exports had exceeded the imports for this'year by ■£15,000,000. and tho stores were full of produce. New Zealand had plenty .of money, and he would gladly vote to give the wholo .£15,000,000 of accumulated surpluses to. the soldiers. The Scheme Supported, Mr. C. J. Parr (Eden) said it was a pity the question liad not been settled by the National Government, The de'bate would, be' regarded bv the public as a party quarrel. He thought the soldiers would rather have Is. Gd. per day at once than face further delay and argument. Tho majority of the soldiers were satisfied. Mr. J. Craigie (Timaru). said the National Government ought to have fixed tho gratuity. If that had been done the rate would not have exceeded Is. Gd. It ■ might have been lower. He deplored the haggling and huckstering about the soldiers; The Government he thought had done pretty well by the spldiers. No money valus could be put on the services of the soldiers, but the men had not fought for_ money. Most of them were satisfied with tho rato proposed. Other Views. Mr. J. V. -Brown iNapierJ supported the amendment, and accused the Government of neglecting the interests- of Ohe soldiers in various aspects. The gratUity should bo paid to tlio'date of discharge. •Mr. G. J. AA.hrterson (Mataura)' said tho question ihould have been decided at a joint caucus. Tho Houso was being .treated now to an exhibition of party squabbling. Mr. Anderson suggested ■ that _tiho sudden dissolution of the National Government was explained by the fact that tho knotty gratuity question loomed ahead, - Sir Joseph Ward: That had nothing.to do with it. i Air, L. If. Isitt (Christohurch North) described tho member for Wairarapa as a "lightning change artist." The member had accused other .members of voteseeking, but tho House taw he was an adept m the Very practice he was charging against others. Mr. Isitt did not consider tho gratuity scheme was adequate. Mr. Isitt referred to ■ the caso of hardship .of the man wounded, invalided to New Zealand, recovering here, and reenlisting. Admittedly such a man received a minimum of eighteen months' gratuity in respect of liis first period of service, and of his second period of service, but if convalescence occupied more than this period tho man was under a disadvantage. Sir James Allen: Iliavo told the House tlmt if tliere are cases liko that I will consider them.

Mr. Isitt said 110 was glad to hear that. Ho was with Mr. Poland in the opinion that more should bo done far disabled moil. Ha was not altogether in favour of tho flat rate of payment to all ranks. He disclaimed again any desire to gain party advautago from this matter. The Hon. D. Buddo (Kaiapoi) and Air. G. Witty (Rieearton) both declared that-the utmost possible ought to be done for the soldiers.' ,' .

Mr; T. A. H. TTield (Nelson) supported tho demand for gratuities for tho officers and men of tlio transports conveying our troops to tho war,- He would like to see mnro done for wounded soldiers. His information' was Hint tho soldiers generally were patisfied with tho scalo as proposed. Ca.pta.in T. E. Y, Seddon (Westland) said lie was glad tho Government had declared for a flat'rate,' but he considered .that when a flat rate was fixed tho officer ought to get retrospective allowances ajid pay, to brinf their emoluments for tlio * whole period of service equal jit least to the rates after tho increases were made. Ho had heard no sfrong arguments in the debate against the payment of a gratuity of 2s. a day. The Soldiers' Viewpoint Maior Coates (Postmastor-Goneral) said he had heard with regret tho news of the dissolution of tho National Government, becauso he had realised long before he came to New Zealand that, if these questions were not settled by the' National Government questions of party \would inevitablv arise, if not in tho House, then among tho people outside' the House. It wits doplorablo that it should bo so. He'pleaded for a-fair deal for tho .returned soldier. There must be no idea that .the country would bo dono with the returned soldier when the payment of gratuities was made.. There had'been things done in this war, metfc ods of fighting used, which would affect .tho soldier while he lived,' As to the amount of erratuily, it was really a small matter whether it was to bo Is. Gd. or 3s. a day. Of much more importance would be the opportunities offered to the soldiers, and the help given in other ways. Apart altogether from legislative compulsion it was the duty of every citizen, especially of every wealthy citizen, to help, each in his. own way, the man who had done so much for the countrv. Men did not go to fight for money. There was something much higher than this 'in the mind of soldiers. But it had been a privilege to bo of age, physically fit,'and able to go forward when tiho country wanted men. Everv man who had been there felt this. The war had had a certain effect on tho minds of men. A soldier had no soul to call his own in f'he Army; his only privilege was to grumble and find fault. In tho end he'took tho easy way . if it offered. So it was that it wr.s the simplest thing possible for a clever man to lead soldiers into wrong. Jlis own opinion was that 1 tho Government proposals were "near enough" for gratuities. . Ho was at one with (ilioso other members who asked for better treatment for the disabled men. Dr. Thacker (Christchurch East) declared for tho payment of gratuities at tlio -highest possible. rato. Amendment Defeated. Tho Hotiso divided on tho question at 2.10 a.m., tho amendment being defeated by 37 votes to 30., "Messrs. Ilornsby and j Craigie voted ajainst tho Literals. Mr. J. M'Combs (Lyttelton) then moved an amendment to tho effect that the Government bo recommended to pay 'gratuities from tho data of entering camp at the rate of is. per doy. (Left sitting.) (Left sitting.)

Permanent link to this item
Hononga pūmau ki tēnei tūemi

https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/DOM19190925.2.96

Bibliographic details
Ngā taipitopito pukapuka

Dominion, Volume 12, Issue 309, 25 September 1919, Page 8

Word count
Tapeke kupu
6,718

A PARTY WRANGLE Dominion, Volume 12, Issue 309, 25 September 1919, Page 8

A PARTY WRANGLE Dominion, Volume 12, Issue 309, 25 September 1919, Page 8

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