PARLIAMENT

Dominion, Volume 12, Issue 298, 12 September 1919, Page 8

PARLIAMENT

INDUSTRIES COMMITTEE'S

REPORT

RECONSTRUCTION PROBLEMS

SURVEY BY PRIME MINISTER

The Legislative Council met at 2.30 p.m. CHATTELS TRANSFER AMENDMENT. Tho Chattels Transfer Amendment Bill was committed. SIK FRANCIS BELL explained that the Bill was a very short one, containing only ono operative clause, and its object was to exclude from the affidavit of renewal of instruments tho statement (at present required) of the amount due by tho mortgagor. There never vras any sense, ho said, in requiring a company to set forth bv affidavit what its customer owed it at the time of renewal. Tho obligation to do so had for a number of years been a aricvanes with tho mercantile community. PARTY WALLS, The Public Authorities (Parly Wall) Empowering Bill was committed. The Bill is one to confer on public authorities power to enter into party wall agreements and to cxercite powers incidental thereto, OFFICIAL DOCUMENTS AND APPOINTMENTS. ' Both of the previously mentioned Bills, together with tho Official Documents and Appointments BilC wero reported without amendment, and wera read a third time. In 'moving tho adjournment, Sir Francis Bell said ho proposed that the Council should sit formally to-day' to pass a private Bill. He hoped to be able then to move an adjournment till Thursday. Tho Council rose at 3.A p.m. THEHOUSE The House of representatives met at 2.30 p.m. The Chattels Transfer Amendment Bill, tho Public Authorities (Party Wall) Empowering Bill, and tile Oflieic-1 Appointments and Documents Bill were received from the Legislative Council and read a first time. A FORMER MEMBER. The Et. Hon. W. F. MASSEY (Prime Minister) moved that tho Houso record its sense of the faithful services rendered to New Zealand by tho late Mr. Joseph Ivess, a former member of the House. Mr. Massey referred to Mr. Ivess's record, and mentioned that he had been a member of the Houso from 1882 to ISB7. and that ho had established forty-fivo newspapers in different parts of the Dominion and New Sou:h Wales. Tho motion was seconded by Sir Joseph Ward (Leader of the Opposition), and carried. On the motion of the Priiao Mmistor tho House adjourned at 5 p.ni. until 7.30 o.m„ out of respect for the memory of the late Mr. Ivess.

INDUSTRIES COMMITTEE

THE REPORT DISCUSSED

PROPOSALS GOOD AND BAD

Whon the House resumed at 7.30 -tho Prirao Minister intimated that members would bo allowed to discuss the rouort of tho Industries Committee. Mr. ,T. T. M. HOKNSBY (Wairarapa) ODcned tho debate, in the absence of tlio chairman of tho committee Mr. C. A. Wilkinson. Ho said that tha committee, comnrisiug as it did members from all parts-,of tho House, of widely differing opinions, had come to considered decisions on tho matters investigated. Much still remained to bo done. There were carts of Now Zealand which tho commit-. tee had not time to visit. His opinion was- that there was an enormous amount of wealth lying itUo in N<;w Zealand. Tho decisions of tho oommitteo were those of men who had "been-and seen. Thev had been unanimous in tho opmipn that something must .bo dono at /inco to increase production. J.ho lirst essential was tho establishment of a national hvdro-electric scheme, and he was sorrv that local scheme's wew being tried. In Tegard to'coal, the committee had made caroful investigations, and it had not been found possible to icly on oihcial information. There was "a tendency on tho part of officials to straddle across tlio path of progress. Thero had not been sufficient investigation of tho coal measures of this country. The supplies were vast. It had been proved to the satisfaction of tho committee that privato enterprise had been wasteful, and the comraitteo recommended nationalisation ot tho mines. The' committco recommondod also a State ferry service, a complete scheme of housing, and suggestions fot scientific research; Policy Declarations.

SIB JOSEPH WARD (Awaru.i) said that ho proposed to express some opinions on the recommendations of the committee. ' He heartily supported the' recommendations regarding hydro-electric-ity, staling that ho liadsubmitled proposals to Parliament in 1910. whioh, if followed, would have allowed two schemes in tho North Island and ono in the South. That scheme was out down to one vote- ot for the Lako Coleridge scheme. He had proposed that all tho schemes should be started simultaneously, as tho committeo now-recommended, and the reason was that it was unfair to give any part of tho country an advantage. He approved also of tho recommendations rcardinsr a Board of Industries and Commerce, lie had made this proposal himself sevoral years ago, but the very poople who were now urging this proposal find opposed his suggestions very strongly. He believed that tins proposals for tlw suppression of profiteering would nicot with general approv.il. He did not think that unlimited powers should uu given' to a Board of. We becauso ho did not agTCO that the House surrender its powers to. any body. Kef or-, ring to the tariff proposals of the committee, he said that it had always been the policy of this country to havo a dualpurposo tariff, a tariff fo produce revenuo and help now and growing industries. Our policy was hoi; protective, and wo should go carefully before adopting ntoppugo duties in this country. But ho agreed that somo measures should bo taken to prevent dumping' . from protected Australia.. Some things in tho report were good, but some of them were very dangerous. It would bo dangerous, for instance, to make frequent and quick changes in tho tariff. It would destroy the stability of trado and destroy tho ercelit of traders. It would bo better to allow anomalies to remain for a few years—and thero were anomalies in every, .tariff—than to upset trade. He was in favour of extension of preforenco to Britain. He had first proposed tho 50 per cent..'duty against German goods, but lie doubted very much whofclier under the Treaty wo could sustain such a duty. State Ownership of Coal Mines. Ho had come to the conclusion that tho only course of safely regarding coal was'for tho Stato to oivii the mines. He did not wish to adopt this out of any dosiro to Join up with .my big nationalisation scheme. But he agreed that in the interests of the gcnural safety of tho country it would have to be adopted. Mr. Pcai'co: There ar.> more strikes in tho Stato mines than in any other. Sir Joseph Ward: "That is not tho question. Ever sineo I have Jkcii in Parliament, with tho exception of the big shipping strike, the only sources or labour troubles, of i'riclio'i of Capital and L.'.bour, have been the coal miners and waterside workers." The old order would have to be changed, and the cause 1 .? of unrest removed. The cir.il mines ami the mining settlements would have to be improved, and tho State would havo to do it. Hut the State would not do it for 'private owners. Provide.;! v.'itli decent housing and go:; 1 conditions tho minors would have to provide a full day's work to a full day's pay. The housing ouestion was acute, and he thought that this session tho House

should be asked to provide four millions for houses for workers.

Bin Fiflures. Sir Joseph V.tti-il insisted that tho wliolo expenditure involveii in ins pioposuls lor national aevekipment would not exceed ,£7,1)0u,1)0U a year lor Unco years, and tins expenditure would be f-eil'-suppurting. Tins included JM.OUO.OOU lor woriars' 'nomes, jM,<KK),<XW lor railwars, Jtf.WW.OIK) lor hydro-electric, power, ana iC3,t100,0(,U for ouuealion. Tho Dominion had provided over J;20,0fl0,00u it year lor war purposes, and it could well afford to spend .£21,0011,01)0 in three years on great national works. Tho country liad got into uu acute position over housing and the remedy was a bold 6cheme of building. tteremiig to waterside labour, Sir Joseph Ward suggested that the harbour beards and the shipp.ng companies should como together to provide permanent employment for a fixed number of men, with proper housing and superannuation. Tho miners and waterside workers wero holding key positions in industry, and if there was to bo peace and security the'country must put itself in the right in dealing with them. Tho committee had made Mine financial proposals' with which he disagreed. Tho Government had prohibited holders of debentures issued within New Zealand during the war from sending any 01 .them out of 'the country. That had been dono because of the amount of papor issued in the Dominion. Tho paper was backed by the credit of Now Zealand and was perfectly secure. But if it went upon tho open markets it would fall in price in a manner that would bo a very serious thing. Tho fact was Hint New Zealand, during *ho war, had made financial provisions that had .been justified only by the war. These provisions could not Ije continued. Already it was possible to buy New Zealand debentures at a discount of i and eren 5 per cent. The people, could not be asked to provide money in . the way they had done during tho war. If uv bad fortune the wai' had continued another two years, ovory section of the country would have felt the situation. Referring to wheat production, Sir Joseph Ward said that tho wheat growers wero being guaranted Os. 6d. per bushel for wheat. Australian growers were guaranteed ss. Australia was a vast producer of wheat, and he believed/the time was coming when New Zealand peoplo must make up their minds to produco the tilings for which tho country was suited, and get the other things from, countries that could produce more cheaply. The wheat arrangement, rightly made in time of war. could not bo continued. The committee had recommended the use of trawlers. It was a fact that, trawlers generally had been a failure in New Zealand, and he thought tho Government should bo careful about discouraging tho experienced fishermen who were already at work. Tho first step with regard to shipping should be to get freieht rates on the best basis possible, the Government assisting tho producers. If that arrangement did not give satisfaction the question of State shipping could be taken into consideration. New Zealand ought to be in a position to arrange reciprocal trade with other countries, including the United States. Ho hoped tho day would come when tho Empire as a whole could arrango a reciprocal treaty with tho United States. Sir Joseph Ward added that the report was the most sensible production of its kind ha had read.

THE PRIME MINISTER

APPROVAL OP THE REPORT. Tho Rt. Hon, W. F. MASSEY (Prime Minister) said that ho too wished to congratulate the committee on their report. If it wore possible to give legislative effect to it this session it woukt bo a good thing for t'ho country. Ho was prepared to accept it almost in its entirety. Most important of all tho matters mentioned was the need for development of hydro-clectrio power. He was only sorry that thero were not moro schemes in operation to-day. Ho did not agree with tho Leader of tho Opposition that difficulties were placed in t'ho way of tho then Government in 1910, whon. Sir Joseph Ward made his proposals. At that time hydro-electric schemes wero not out of, the experimental stage, and tho question was whether there should bo wholesale ventures in hydro-electric power, to the possible hampering of roads and bridges, Times had changed, and tho Lako Coleridge experi- • ment had been a success. An urgent reason for t'ho- development of waferpowor resources wis tho coal difficulty. The present position was not creditable to tho country. Wo Tiad abundant supplies of coal of good quality, some of it very easy of reach. And yet wo were so short of coal that our train services were' restricted. It was suggested that nationalisation was tho'romedy. If nationalisation of (ho coal mines was going to solvo the problem, then let tho mines bo nationalised. Ho was not quite sure that it was the remedy. If it were adopted tho Government would havo to provido superannuation for tho coal miners employed by tho State, otherwise tho change of ownership would mean simply a c'lmmjo of. employers for tho men, which would bo productive of but little goodr Tho question would havo to be settled in tho not distant future, and he was only sorry that the length of tho session would not pormit tho appointment of a Parliamentary committee. The country was losing money by the shortage of ooal. It had been forced to declino a contract for tho delivery of .100,000 tons . of coal to the Admiralty. Shipping, said Mr. Massey, was becoming an Imperial question. New Zealand would bo asked presently to appoint a representative, who probably would be tho High Commissioner, on a shipping board of Imperial scopo. Tho jimpjro was not doing enough regarding shipping. New Zealand's, position was better than it had been. During tlio year ended Juno 30 produce to the valuo of ■£•11,000,000 had been exported. Great changes wore taking place in tlio Pacific, and Now Zealand must watch developments. Shipbuilding at present was out of tho question owing to enormous cost, but ho realised that New Zealand ought to havo faster passenger ships, reaching British ports through the Panama Canal in about thirty days. That was quite feasible. The Niagara could do it. Tho Avenger could'havo dono it.

j Referring to reconstruction problems, Mr. Massoy urged tho importance of naI tional development. He had learned to admiro American methods of doing public business and pushing the "interests of their country. The Americans iiad raised their population from 30,000,000 to 100,000,000 in sixty years, and New Zealand, in proportion, should be able to mako similar progress. He realised that tho housing problem was' not going to be solved by tho erection of tho 200 .houses recently authorised by the Government. Ho had already given all' local bodies, except harbour boards, power to erect houses,' and he proposed to ask the House this session, if opportunity offered, to extend the ' power to harbour boards. Before the war, as heael of tho Labour Department, ho had made a beginning with the ejection of workers' homes in tho country districts. Tho scheme had to bo dropped during l tho war? Island Trade. Another recommendation in which ho was interested was that. regarding trado with tho Islands. Much more might lie done in fostering traelo with tho islands of tho Pacific. Fiji, a little country distant three days' steam, was yet a very important country, and wo should ho doing moro trade with thoso islands. Tho key to tilts question was tho lack of proper ships for the'traded The siups wore slow and small, and better ships wero needed. Amorica took mast of tho trade of Fiji, and also a lot of tho trado of Samoa. Fortunately wo still held our sharo of the trado of Tonga. Of tho New Hebrides wo never heard.in this country. A , „ ~ _ Mr. M'Callum: Except from tho Presbyterians. ~,.,.,. Air. Massey said that one of tho disabilities of those islands was the dual fonn of government, and it was the dutr of Ihe.Govonimenls of Australia and New Zealand to try to bring about some better arrangement, Empire Preference, He thoroughly and heartiCy approved of t!u> recommendations for preference within the Dominion, lie would never suggest that wo should cease to trade with any other country, but we should certainly do a I: possible to foster trade between countries of tho Empire. Preference might lie given by means other than Customs duties, There were such charges as shipping dues. America had very stringent shipping regulations. One P'lrt of our preference scheme should bo | to encourage immigrants from other por-

tions of the British Empire. Wo ought to consider also biicK matters as finance, tho payment of income tax. Wo might again have to go on tho British market for loans, awl. ho, would suggest that money invested in such loans should not be required to bear the same rale of British incomo tax as was paid by profits on foreign investments. Wo must soon havo a policy of immigration. At present wo could not provido shipping space for immigrants, but this, difficulty would not exist when our ecfltfliers' had all returned. When wo began to encouingo immigrants wo must again follow tho policy of Imperial preference. We needed workers for our industries. Doinestio workers wore unobtainable at present, and yet thousands of women in Britain would be only too glad to como here if given tho opportunity. There was a strong demand also for farm workers.

Whoat Growing.. Sir Joseph Ward had declared that wheat could bo produced moro cheaply in Australia than in New Zealand. Ho did not believe that this wa? so. In. Canterbury and North Otago wo had some of the best wheatgrowing land in the whole world. A country like New Zealand, with much good wheat land, ought not to be required to import wheat. Ho know tho reason, which was simply that it had paid the farmers better to fatten lambs or produco butter and cheese. Tho Now Zealand wheat grower, moreover, had always in his mind tho fear of large quantities of wheat and flour being dumped from Au3dralia. It should not be forgotten that Australia was subject to droughts: A supply of wheat from that source could not ho depended upon, and the position would be dangerous if Now Zealand became entirely dependent on Australia for wheat and flour. He r,m convinced that sufficient encouragement should bo given to fanner* in Canterbury and Otago to induce them to grow all tho wheat required. Mr. Slassey agreed • with tho committee that the fishing industry should ,be encouraged. New Zealand ought not to import fish, tinned or otherwise. It, ought rather to export such goods. Tho ironsands and ores of the Dominion certainly ought not to be neglected. In conclusion, Mi. Massey said the Dominion had entered r> new'era. The political millennium was still a long way off, hut it was possible to make the old world Better and brighter than it had ever been before. The British people wore realising that the employer and the employee had got to come together if national and mutual interests were to he served, and Now Zealand must learn tho same lesson. The f'j&velopmont of confidence and cooperation w,onld bo the basis of progress for tho whole community.

Chairman of the Committee. C. A. WILKINSON (Egniont) said that m Ids opinion the experiment of tho Industries Comuiittco had shown, that members of Parliament could do useful work in tho recess. He said that the committee had made sweeping recommendations for the setting up of machinery to control urices. The mistake made previously had bc?n to give the Board of Trade too little power, and the committee had thought it visor to give too much power thnn to give too little. It was not correct to say that tho committoo had recommended -protective tariff. The committee had come to tho conclusion on investigation that some industries would have to go out'of existence unless some protection wore given to them. Ho was glad to hear tho Leader of tho Opposition say he approved of nationalisation of tho coal mines. The committee had gono a little farther than the Board of Trade—had, in fact, "gone tho wholo hog." Coal might cost more, but to. tho general public the concern was not so much 'ono of cost as of a plentiful and regular supply of coal. The committee had I'ecommonded subsidies on wlicat production because members believed that it was not safe to rely on gettin.ir supplies from Australia, running the risks of droughts and strikes, ne suoke of tho fishing industry, and of tho opinion of tho.committee• that this industry should bo developed by the use of trawlers. In Auckland, where tho Citv Council had a trawler and a shop, the price of schnapper was 81d. per lb.; a price which compared very favourably, with that charged in Wellington. Ho did not agree with Sir Joseph AVard that trawling would not provo the best method of getting fish. The committco had recommended that the trawlers be owned and operated by the Government, and the reason was that privato owners would not provide tho ships, and would not supply at reasonable prices. Ho referred to several other findings of tho committee, criticising adversely the present New Zealand tariff.

Mr. C. H. POOLE (Auckland West) emphasised the importance- of the work doiio by tho committee. Mr. rf. "HOLLAND (Grey), speaking at 11.30 p.m., protested against the late sitting, and complained that the Labour Party had not been represented on the Industries Committee.' ' Members: What about Mr. Veitch?

Mr. Holland: Mr. Veitch will tell you ■himself ho is not a, member of tho Labour Party. Ho is an Independent. Members: Ho is a Labour- man.

Mr. Holland: .Mr. Veitch is not a member of tho Labour Party. I don't think a class line should-have been drawn in tho appointment of this committee. Mr. Holland proceeded to argue that strikes wero a natural result of industrial conditions. - ■ At 12.20 a.m. tho Hon. W. D. S. MacDonald suggested 'tliafe tho debate should be adjourned Mr. Massey consented to allow Wednesday evening'next, for the-continuance of tho ilobato, which was then adjourned on the motion of Mr. G. Hunter (Waipawa). Tho House adjourned at 12.25 a.m. until 2.50 p.m. to-day.