THE HOUSE

Dominion, Volume 12, Issue 293, 6 September 1919, Page 8

THE HOUSE

The House of Representatives met at 2.80 n.m. • Mr. ,T. P. Luke (Wellington North) cave notice 'of the Wellington City Abattoirs Ohanre3 and Renewal Fund Bill. S: FIRST READINGS, The following Bills were introduced '.and read a first time:—New Protection ' Bill (Mr. M'Callum), Municipal Corporations Amendment Bill (Mr. Luke), Crimes Amendment Bill (Mr. Wilford). PROTECTION AND MONOPOLIES. 'Mr. R. M'CALLUM (Wairan), speaking on hia Bill, said tho principlo of the Bill, which had been before the House alreadv. was that in adjustments of the tariff the proper authorities, should al-ways-trace the effect of granting mono, nolies. The Dominion had seen the re- ' trait of monopoly in connection with tho licensine law. A great monopoly had. been oreatcd in the interests of a trade. ,Ths State licensed a limited number of men. And some of them abused their privilege. He contended that industries which could not stand on their own feet after a reasonablo torm of protection, haa better be allowed to fall. The Board of Trade should protect the consumer. Dr. A. K. NEWMAN (Wellington East) 6aid the Industries Committee had recognised tho principle of the "new protection." The young industries of the Dominion could not possibly survive without protection, but it was a fact that manufacturers, when given the assistance of hieh protection, always abused tho privileEe. The committee had emphasised the evils of monopoly,' and had suceested that the Board of Trade should have power to fix prices at fair levels. Tho committee wanted the protection of industry, but it urged that the monopolies thus created should be controlled in the interests of the public. When the tariff was amended, as it must bo, tho Dominion's industries should be protected, but tho State should take power to control prices and distribution and to protcct tho people from exploitation. Ho hoped the Government would tako steps to prevent foreign countries getting a grip on the New Zealand market. Tho wings of tho tmsts ought to be clipped as far as the Dominion was concerned. AMALGAMATION FOR WELLINGTON. RATING DIFFICULTIES. Mr. J. P. LUKE (Wellington North) said that the purpose of his Municipal Corporations Amendment Bill was to make easier tho amalgamation of smaller boroughs outside of Wellington with tho city. • TJio Bill proposed to givo power to local bodies to consolidate all the special rates being charged. Round about the city there were being charged some twenty special rates, which cost an enormous amount for collection and administration. Tho Bill was not to bo mandatory in character. If tho Bill wero mado law it would get rid of much of the dead working of municipal government. All tho rates, with the exception of tho water rate, would bo collcctcd by way of general rate. Dr. A. K. NEWMAN (Wellington Bast) said that ho believed tho very largo majority of tho people dwelling in the suburbs and in the city of Wellington wanted amalgamation, and this process would bo assisted by tho passage of the Bill. Ho appealed to the Prime Minister,,for the sake of the hundred thousand. people in Wellington and subur]>s Vho wanted the Bill, to allow Mr. Luke opportunities for gotting tho measure' through..

Tho Hon. Ct. W. RUSSELL (Avon) said that when tho Bill was circulated members would bo wise to examine it very carefully, as it proposed very important changcs in tho law, applicable to all other towns and cities' in the Dominion, lie had always hold tlio opinion that it was necessary to givo wider powers to the larger cities than were given to tho smaller municipalities. Sir. J. R. YOUNG (Waikato) said that the weak spot in tho Bill was that under it tlio Council would have power, without consulting the people, to lump all special rates together, and 60 to take burdens off ouo group of peoplo and put them on t'ho general population. Always special rated wero imposed to pay l'or special services, and they wero borne by tho area benefiting by tho services. It might not bo fair in all circumstances to change tho incidence of burdens of this kind. Mr. I>. FRASER (Wellington Central) said ho hoped tho Bill would be given an easy passago through the House. Ho thought all objections raised to the Bill could be met satisfactorily, and it would certainly be of great value to Wellington. Mr. J. P. Luke, in reply, said that the Bill was pel-missive in diameter, and thoso placets that did not want tho Bill need not make use of its provisions. In Wellington the work of dealing with many special rates was enormous, costing a great deal of money, and .it was highly desirable that this work should bo reduced in order to make amalgamation more easily possible. CRIMINAL APPEAL. Mr. T. M. WILFORD (Kntt), introducing tho Crimes Amendment Bill, auid tho measure had been passed by the House in 1918, but had later been lost in the other House. ■ It proposed to provide tho right of criminal appeal and on brine me new Zealand law into lino ivith the Australian, Canadian, and Indian law. In New Zealand at present thero was the right of appeal in small civil <:ases; but the man convicted pt' serious crime, involving a long term of iniufisomnent" or even dfaili, had no ■ri»ht of anneal. Experience had proved that Judges and juries could make mistakes. His Bill provided that any person sentenced should have a right of. anneal, without a time limit. Ho pronosed to rive Judges the right on appeal to increase sentences as well as reduce 'them. This provision would prevent convicted persons appealing unless they had cood irrounds for doing so. It would discourage tile wealthy accused from using his money in a series of appeals. He proposed to allow appeal atrainst. the verdict or i he sentence on rsv erourid that might be raised. M.t. Wilford added that as a private member lie could not put the Bill through t.he House acrain. Ho hoped the Government would take ud the measure. Sir. P. FRASER (Wellington Central) urtred the Government to adopt tho Bill, which he resarded as a matter of extreme importance. He mentioned the Alice Parkinson case. Mr. C. J PARR (Eden) also supportAd tho Bill. . It wns not reasonable to allow anneal in oases involving money and to deny appeal in cases involving liberty or even life. Juries and Judges were not infallible. A jury could l)fi influenced bv a clever advocate or by the notralar feeling of the moment. Sir. W. T. JENNINGS (Taumarunui) said men who had served on juries knew that there was need of the Bill. SIR JOHN FINDLAY (Hawke's Bay) said thire was no more salutary influence upon a. Judge's decisions than the knowledge that thoso decisions wero subject to appeal. Mr. A. S. Malcolm (Clutha): Appeals must stop somewhere. Sir John Findlay admitted that wns so, but there should still be a right of appeal within limits. He had known cases where, in his own honest opinion, a Judge's view of facts had resulted in a miscarriage of justice. He approved of the proposal that Judges, hearing appeals, should have the right to incrcaso ; sentences as well as to decrease them. This would deter guilty people from appealing. Sir. H. HOLLAND (Grey) supported tho Bill. He said that some day the whole of the criminal law would have to be widely reviewed. Under the jury system it was not possible, in times "of public excitement, for men to be sure of getting justice from a jury, especially us the prosecution was allowed to select the jury by the method of challenge Sir. Holland urged that the law ought to ho amended so as to abolish the brutalising punishment of flogging. A member: For a man who criminally assaulted a child? ' Sir. Holland: I have often felt that if it were my child who was attacked in that way I would be disposed to shoot the man. Slembers: Tho best 'thing you could do. Mr. Holland: "No. The criminal himself is not a case for punishment, but for treatment." He believed that no criminal was ever reformed by punishment. Sir. T. W. Wilford (Hutt), in reply, said the discussion should convince the Government that its duty was to adopt the Bill. It-would be a sad day for the country if the -jury system were abolished, but the right of the Crown to challenge jurors ought to be severely limited. THE ADDRESS-IN-REPLY, LABOUR MEMBERS TALK. The Address-in-Reply Debate was resumed at 5 p.m.. Sir Joseph Ward had intended .to speak, but he was still suffering from a cold, and ho informed the Loader of the House l that he would not speak, nor would members of his .party speak. An appeal was made -by the Labour members that the debate be adjourned until the evening sitting, but Mr. Slasscy would not agree. Mr. H. HOLLAND (Grey) declared with much vehemence (because the members of the other parties would not talk) that the conditions existing under the National Government still obtained. The tw;o parties were partners in political misdoing. He talked a little about the coal trouble, and the railway cut, saying that the coal miners had been slandered. In past yeai's tragedies had happened in mines by which many miners had died. These disasters, he said, were caused by "the 6ame cruel rapacity" which was the cause of the unrest on the coalfields to-day. The only solution of the coal problem was socialisation of tho coal mines, which might then be worked for use and not for profit. He . discussed at some length tho "Crampton case," and tho treatment of prisoners at AVanganui Barracks. Sir. Holland resuming at 7.30 p.m., spoke about conscientious objectors and their treatment. He mentioned eases of alleged Sl-treatment, mentioning those of ono or two men who had been "persuaded" somewhat vigorously at the front by soldiers trying to forco them to g{i "ud to the line." His authorities wero letters and statements from the men concerned. The descriptions of tho treatment were detailed, and it appeared that the men had como through grim experiences. The Coal Trouble. Sir. R. SEMPLE (Wellington South) said 'ho thought this Parliament should get its business done as quickly as possible, nnd then an election should bo held. 11c said that he proposed to deal at some length with tho coal question. Ha declared that the cause of tlio reaction in coal production was the working out of some mines, and tho reduction in tho number of men working in the mines. It was very unfair to say that the reduced output wns duo to the miners "going slow." It was unfair to condemn tho miners without knowledgo - of their work, their,working conditions, and their living conditions. The first causa of tho crisis in the coal industry ! was private ownership of mines, and tho hunt for dividends. Some mines had been "butchered" before being lijilf dc- • velopcd, or before half tho coal was extracted. Ho declared that the wages of coal miners were not the chief factors in ! tho cost of coal to the consumer. Tho ; cost of production on the ship in Greymouth was less than a pound a ton. But 1 the consumer in Wellington had to pay 1 ,-E3 10s. a ton, The coal miners did not 1 get tlio profit. It was not fair to suggest that because a miner earned .£1 a i day ho earned that altethe year round. Tho miner had to livo all tho year round, but ho did not work all tho year ronnd. If the Houso considered lhiners did not work hard enough, ho ivould cliallengo any member to put on tho 1 dungarees with him nnd hew coal for ono week.. There would be no ''go slow" 1 that week, Hon. A. M. Myers: I will send a medal to tho man who gets tho most coal. ; (Laughter.) Sir. Semple quoted statistics to s'now • that owing to normal interrup- •

1 tions nnd delays a miner averaged only • 210 working duys in tlio year. ; Australian Miners. | Tho miners, said Sir. Semple, had been j charged with keeping Australian miners , away from tlio Dominion. The actual , fact was that tlm Australian Miners' Union had caliled asking for informa- ; tion regarding tlio conditions of work in • tlio New Zealand mines. The New Zea- ; loud Federation replied that the conditions hero were not what they should be. .Sir James Allen: Will you read the i messages? Sir. Semple: I have not got the ines wages. That was tho effect of them, I understand. Sir James Allen: You understand? Did you seo them? Sir. Semple: Yes, I saw them. The Minors' Federation could make no other reply. It had to tell the truth, Hint. the conditions here were not what thev should toe. Sir. C. J. Parr (Eden): Was that all? Mr. Semple i "And advising miners not to come here under theso conditions." There would he no shortage of coal in New Zealand, added Sir. Semple, and no ■need to import coal, if the conditions at the mining townships were made satisfactory. The coal problem could not be solved by calling Labour members bad names. The miner was a hard-working man, and the Dominion had amplo coalfields. Sir. Semple made a vigorous attack 011 the Prime Minister for his ac. tions during the 1913 strike. The Labour Party, lie added, had not come to the House to perpetuate tho class war. Tlio class war was already here. There was enough for all in tlio Dominion if tho social organisation was sound and democratic. Sir, A. WALKER (Dunedin North) informed the Houso that he had not. expected to 6poak that evening, and that his present task was to fill in time until one of his Labour colleagues arrived. He proceeded to talk of profiteering and to urge the Government to hasten tho development of hydro-electric power. He resumed his seat us soon as Mr. AT Comb* readied tho Chamber. Labour No-Confidence Motion, Mr. J. M'COMBS (Lyttelton) said that the Liberals wero shirking their responsibilities for the acts of the National Government in not taking part in the debate. Ho doclarefl tuat tins Reformers represented tho land monopolists, and the Liberals represented the commercial | monopolists and the commercial sharks, end all the monopolists ought to be in one enmp. The Labour people wero tired of these mock fights between Liberals- and Tories. Before tho days of tie National Government, tho Liberals had been united with the Government in resisting the <femand of the Labour people for increased pensions for soldiers, and one of those who put up tho hardest fight against increased pensions on that occasion was Sir Joseph AVard. Generally, his argument was that the Liberals were united with the Reformers in everything essential. The Liberals at tho 1914 elections said that if returned to power they would reduce the cost of living. But when Mr. Massey went to England, and Air. MacDonaid took the Presidency of the Board of Trade, took the administration of the "precions Liberal Cost of Living Act/' the cost of living, as proved by tho Government Statistician, increased quite considerably. After the war had gone on some time Sir Joseph Ward imposed a war profits tax, which yielded, as it proved, over a million anil (i quarter in revenue. The next year he remitted tho tax, and in the same Finance Bill imposed a tax on amusements and a tax on tea! Now Sir Joseph Ward, in his election programme, was promising to remit the taxes 'he himself had impose"?. The Leader of tho Liberal Party had promised to creato a Slato bank. Sir Joseph Ward had not consulted his party about it, but lie had announced that before ho did anything about it ho would consult—the shareholders of Bank of New ZetiTand! He moved as a want-of-confidcnco motion flie following addition to tho reply to His Excellency's Speech:— . Wo feel it, however, to bo our duty to submit to Your Excellency that it is essential that Your Excellency's Government should possess tho confidence of this House and of the country, and to respectfully represent to four JExcellency that 6uth confidence is not Teposed in the Government as at present constituted. The Prime Minister pointed to the fact that no notifo had been given of tho motion. Sir. Speaker sr.itl that there was no Standing Order to compel n member to give notice of a no-conEdence amendment, although it was usual as a matter of courtesy to do so. More About "Sham Fights," Mr. P. FRASER (Wellington Central) seconded the motion. He accused tho Government of inconsistency in asking now that business should not be retarded, when the heads of tho Government had held up the legislative business of the House for the past two years. New Zealand statesmen had not influenced Imparial affairs. He' thought that tho silence of tho Liberal Party that night was prophetic. Hon. W. D. S. MacDonaid: Look'at the Addrcss-in-Reply debate in 1914. ' Mr. Eraser: "Tho Liberal Party lives in the past. Wo want it to wake up in tho present," Sir.' Fraser assailed the Liberal Party for having abandoned Liberal principles and allied itself with tho Reform Party in a policy of repression and exploitation, Ho discussed .the housing problem and demanded the immediate creation of a national housing department, and a grant of .£4,000,000 for housing reform. The children were as Iwdly housed in their schools as in their homes. He was convinced that oven in the present Houso tho amendment would I be carried but for tho crack of the party 1 whip and tho willingness of tho Liberals to go back on their principles. Tho old parties /had resumed their sham battle, but they would not vote seriously against one another. •Sir. 11. Holland (Grey) spoke to tho amendment. The debate was carried to its utmost length bv the Labour five, Messrs. Fraser, Holland, and Semple spoke to Sir. Sl'Cnmbs'6 amendment, end then Mr. A. Walker moved the adjournment of the debate. Jt had apparently been the idea that the.other members could second tho motion, but the.v had already exhausted their rights to speak. Tho adjournment proposal lapsed for want of a seconder, and the no-coniidence amendment had to go to a division. Tlio amendment was defeated by 28 votes to H. Tho Labour five drew no recruits to their banner. Slessrs. Wilford, MacDonaid Slvers. and Hornsby voted acainst, the amendment. The orininal motion was carried without a division. The House rose at 1.18 a.m.