COST OF LIVING

Dominion, Volume 12, Issue 291, 4 September 1919, Page 6

COST OF LIVING

THE BOARD OP TRADE LACK OF POWERS TO DEAL WITH PROFITEERING, The Hon. IV. D. S. MACDOXALD, speaking on the introduction of his Buard ol ! Trado Bill, which •he declared was

not a bogus Bill, said that the Prime Minister had recently sent a circular letter to the members of the Board of Trade which had the effect of casting reflections on them and on himself as acting president. He was sure that this was not intentional. All 1 . Massey: Not at'all. Mr. Mac Donald eaid that the Board of Trade had worked' harder than any other men in tho Public Service, and

had done much for the people of' New Zealand. They had not been able to do all that had been expected of them, because they had not legislative authority. It had been found impossible, for instance, to jet, in accordance with the requirements of the law, evidence required to enable penalties to be imposed for profiteering. He referred to some of his own actions as president of the board. He wished to make it clear, lie said," thill tho Prime Minister had a perfect right to make his statement, but owing to absencp from. the country he was perhaps incompletely advised as to the facts. With regard to standardisation of 'boots and other matters, the board found it had no authority when it arrived at the crucial pftint at which compulsion would have to he put 011 individuals. For such defects in the law the Bill would make provision, and 110 hoped it would be adopted by (lie Minister. Ho (Mr. Mac Donald) could not, of course, put the Bill through, but_ without tho Bill it would be impossible* to deal effectively with such matters as exploitation and cost of living.

More Drastic Bill Needed. The Bight Hon. W. P. MASSEY said that when ho eent his memorandum lie had no desiro to reflect on members of the Board of Trade or on Mr. MacDonaid as acting ohairman. They had done much good work, for which they deserved credit. But when he roturned to New Zealand he Was deluged with letters making complaints about profiteering. • He was prepared to admit that there was a difficulty about getting flie production of books and papers of trading concerns, but, he said, That wouldn't stopple." An hon. member: How would you get tho evidencef Mr. Massey said he would take a man to Court for refusal to produce his books, and prosecute liim, Mr. Wdlford: A .£2O fine. Mr. Massey said that tho fine would bo a small matter, but the publicity would be a strong deterrent. He was still of opinion that the Act "was t or fait>lo. He had examined the Bill referred to by tho hon. member, a Bill which had been propared while the 'honourable gentleman was • acting-president of the board. \ Ho thought it wag a good Bill, though somo of the clause's did not seem to bo drastic enough. ; Mr. MncDonSld: I think that is quifo right. Mr. Massey' eaici that he had referred tfre Bill to Oho Solicitor-General with a view of having the ciausts mado lhoro drastic. He would introduce the Bill ?and ask the House to pass it into law. Ho read to' the House the memorandum to members of the board about wjiicli tho Hon. Mr. Mac Donald had coftvplained. Mr. Massey said that tho letter was intended merely as an instruction to tho board .that complaints of profiteering were general', and that full advantage should be taken of tho law to - repress profiteering. Ho was afraid that high prices would lwve to continue for somo time. He said that there was no indication of a drop in . prices ior at least two years. Mr, Isitt: A sudden droV would bring disaster to many. > Mr. Massey: I quite agree with that. But there is only one i duty fo\- tho Government to perftfm, and that is to see that men are not allowed' to make exorbitant profits during' the present time' of difficulty and unrest.

> The Biggest Question, , Mr. C. J. PAIUt (Eden) said most peo-. X>lo were agreed that the Board 01 Trade iiad been -» tailure. Much discontent might have been allayed if the board had piioiished the results of its investigations and let the people see just why prices had risen. It was undoubtedly a fact that th'ero had been some profiteering. The Board of. Trade had possessed inadequate powers, but, it was a great pity that this fact had not been discovered' very much earlior. Parliament should have been given a.chance to provide the requisite powers, Jlr. Parr mentioned that the report of tho Cost of Living Committee had been almost totally ignored by -the late Government. The biggest issue before tho Dominion to-day was -the cost of living problem, which was inflicting severe hardship on thousands of people. The country needed a Food Controller, with power to osk for imprisonment of profiteers.

Mr. J. M'COJIBS (Lyttclton) said that after five years of war, Ministers and ex-Ministers were professing anxiety to do what should have been done _ and could have been done years ago. ' Reformers and Liberals had both told the people in 1914 that they would deal with the cost of living, but they had done nothing that was effective. Sir Joseph Ward had drafted and introduced tne Bill creating the Board of Trade and had told the House that\the Heform Ministers had given him. an absolutely free hand. The* Bill had proved worthless, at this late hour the party leaders were talking of doing something effective.

\' Wool and Coal. ' Mr. W. A. YEITCIi (Wangamii) said thAt the Prime Minister had tried to save himself from public indignation by imputing blame to his late colleagues. Mr. Massey: I did nothing of the Mr. Veitch reminded the House that the Cost of Living Committee had suggested tho appointment of « Food Controller. The Prime Minister had not acted upon this recommendation. He had allowed matters to drift, and now ho had stated, very late in th'e day, that he wanted- somo examples of exploitation. Examples had been put before him in earlier sessioiis. Tho speaker himself had pointed to' the enormous price of manufactured wool, which was not juijti- . lied by the price 6f tho raw material. An official reply had referred to the high cost of'dye-s, 'but that surely did not affect the price of white wool. A month ago Mr. Veitch had written suggesting that the Wostport C'oal Company should bo prosecuted for selling coal at an excessive. price in Wanganui. The only reply he had received had been from Sir'.Tames Allien, stating thatstho matter had been referred to the Hon. A. M. Myers. In Juty. 19)4, screened coal had been sold in Wanganui at 325. pc-r ton. Tho present price was Gis. per ton. Mr. Mac Donald: There has been a thorough investigation of the whole coal business.

Mr. Veitcli: That is no reply to my. letter. Where is the reply? I am citing Ibis case to show there hart not been the eagerness to deal with exploitation that there should have been. The apparent anxiety of the Primo Minister to deal with exploitation is not borne out by my experience. Mr. M'assey: Your letter went to the ■wrong Minister. \ Mr. Veitcli: I wrote to tho Acting-Prime Minister. Mr. Massßy: You should have wrtiten t'o the Minister in charge'of the Board of Tirade. Mr. Voitcli': "I am not rnnnirq ho National Government." Mr. Veitcli added that some honest traders were being accused of exploitation, while dishonest traders escaped notice. Tnvesli?ntion and nnblicilv wp*e necessary. ■Pries were noli going to fall. New standards of value had been established, and wages must bo adjusted accordingly. The Fluctuating Exchanne Medium. Sift JOHN FINDLAY (Hawke's Bay) said that all were agreed that Iho cost of living was the incut urgent and the most difficult problom of the day. II; was, indeed, the outstanding and most important question, of l.ho hour. He declared that the social discontent so prevalent, whether it was well founded or nod, was tho cau'so of the loss of trust of tho people in the Legislature. Me believed, however, that tho Primo Minister and the Government would courageously attack and repress anti-social selfishness. The ooat of living had baffled eoonomista

all over the world. Ho had reviewed this Bill, and he elioved Hint it was one of the most, effective measures for cheeking the evils of profiteering that had ever found its way oil to the Statute' Books of any legislatures of the world. Tho principles of the Bill were in accord with tho teachings of tho "bes-t text writers of the .world, lie suggested to tho Priino Minister that it would bo idlo to try to cheek tho price of butler and milk and cheese when tho price i l' the sources of these products was not regulated at all. Proiiteering in land was really one of the grentcaS surses of tlje qpuntii y. Ho spoke of dig need for a stabilisation of the value of money. There was no means of regulating tho value of gold. Ffe said that there was a means by which the piece of paper called "a pound" could be regit, lated, and he referred to a scheme propounded by a professor' of Harvard, an eminent economist. The object of this was to ensure that the money wages paid to a worker would always he representa. live of the same quantity of'commodities in common use. 'ireearnestlyconiniended the scheme to tho consideration of members of the House, and ho impressed upon the Government tho mrcd for adoption of this proposal for the stabilisation of the value of wage?. He urged that the Boartl of Trade Should be composed of gentlemen independent of Parliament, not subject to tho direction of any '.Minister or Cabiuet.

Sir Joseph Ward's Attitude. Sir. G. J. ANDERSON (Mataura) said that one of the reasons why the recommendations of tho Cost of Living Committee of the House had not been given effect to was because the Leader of the Liberal Party had condemned .root and branch tho chief recommendations of the committee. One of thoso most strongly condemned by Sir Joseph Ward was that for tho appointment of a I'ood Controller, independent of the Government. Examples of exploitation had been made public without notice lying taken of thorn by the Board of Trade. In Gore district there were beds of lignite from which 'householders were supplied at 17s. per ton delivered. In the time of coal shortage this lignite was railed to Christcluirch. It was put on trucks at- 12s. Gd. per ton; the railage was IK 6d., and tho Board of Trade allowed it to be retailed in CliTistchurch at 535. pur ton, an increase for the cost of delivery of 100 per cent, on cost of mining,. the cartage to the railway, and the freight by rail. This was surely profiteering. The country had greater problems to face than ever before, ana Sideavour should be made to grapple with them.

Tlio Hon. W. D. S. MAODONALD. in reply, said that tho Board of Trade had saved consumers in this country millions of money'by controlling- prices. It had not been possible to 'reduce prices, but the board had prevented prices from rising. Tlio sneers of honourable members were not deserved by the Board of Trade. Denunciation would servo no purpose. If facte were brought to the Government or tlio Board of Trade something effective could be done to check tlio cost of living. •

THE NEW MINISTERS. Tlio Prime Minister announced to the, Tlouso that Major Coaites, Major Hine, and Mr. Ve. Nosworthy hid boon sworn in as Ministers. THE LATE GENERAL, BOTHA. The PRIME MINISTER' moved: "This House desires to j.;ive expression to tho deep regret of the Parliament and peoplo of New Zealand unused by liie death of General Lou/3 Botha, Prime of tho Union of South Africa, and to record its admiration of his manly and honourablo career as a gallant enomy of former years, and as a statesman of tho Empire since tho Transvaal peace." / Air. Massc-y sahMt was with sincere and genuine regret that ho hud learned of tho death of tho Into General Botha, who had been one of the grandest mon ho over met, and one of tho greatest men at tho Peace Conference. General Botha's record had been a very remarkable one. Ho had done iine work as a pioneer settler. He. had led Boer armies against Britain, and later, after accepting loyally the Treaty of Vereeniging, he had' become ono of the Empire's leaders. South Africa had lost a great leader, and tho Empiro had lost a groat statesman.

SIR JOSEPH WARD said ho had met General Botha on many, occasions and had admired him always. The lata, soldier and statesman had been a linn and strong enemy of Britain in the days of the South African war. He had entered that war unwillingly, but he had stayed in it to the end'. Later he accepted from Britain as a trust the freo institutions conferred 1 upon his people, and stood loyally by the Empire during difficult years. He had left- a noble memory. - ! ■ Sir John Findlay ' I'H.iwke's Bay) also paid a tribute to the memory of General Botha. LOAN BILUNTRODUCED

AN URGENT MEASURE. The Discharged Soldiers' Settlement Loan .Bill, was introduced by GovernorGeneral's Message. . 1 Tho MINISTER OF FINANCE (Sir James A.llen) asked thai it- should be treated as a matter of urgency. The Bill k'rs necessary becauso the authority 'taken last year for the .expenditure of money on the settlement of returned soldiers on the land had jirovcd totally inadequate. The authority had been exhausted on March 31 last At the end of August commitments had been entered into to the extent of .£2,592,000, and in addition there were unapproved applications to the amount of ,£700,000, held up on account of lack of funds. The requirements f jin connection with tho settlement of soldiers during the last two months had been at the rate of X 1,000,000 a month, and authority was now being asked to raise, a sum of ,£12.500,000 to cover tho commitments already entered into, and provide for future requirements. It was not supposed that a full million a month would be required during tho ■ next twelve months. Tho probablo expenditure had been estimated at .£BOO,OOO a month. Tho Government, in order i to provide necessary finance since the end of March last, had,, used tho reserve .fund securities to the amount of ,£BOO,OOO, and had obtained another sum of .£150,000 from tho Treasury under tho "heading of unauthorised expenditure. These amounts had to be repaid out of tho loan. The Bill providcd'also for loans under the Land for Settlement Act for the settlement of soldiers. Power was asked to l'aise .£2,000,000 in tho year ended' March 31, 1020. another .£2.000,000 in the year ended March 31, 1921, and oCI.OCO,OOb in each year thereafter. Ho did not sav that all this money would be required, but the Government could not place itself again in the position of not having the funds needed for soldier settlement. The Bill, added Sir James Allen, contained provision for compulsorv contributions. Tho Minister nf Finance had power to fix the rate of interest and the conditions. There would be nower to raise the money at a low rate of interest with freedom from income tax. He did not say that course would bo taken. Tie hoped it might be avoided. But he hud not 'had time tn inquirn into tho position, and in view of what had been said last

year by the then Minister of Finance he' hoped'members would allow the power to remain in the Bill. Necessary Expenditure. ' SIR JOSEPH WARD (Awarua) said he would support, tho Bill, because any moneys required for the settlement, of discharged soldiers musi; be provided by tho House. For the amount Wie Government would have to taie responsibility. Last year iti had never been expected that such 11 largo sntn wouid bo required, but the men had been returned quickly, and money for their settlement >vns being called for earlier. Ho referred to tlio .amount of JSOO.tIOO in gilt-edged securities held iu Tomloii, 11 ml to tho advantage which this h;jd been in gettiiu: over a di'licult position now. lie took some credit for i lie establishment of lllis reserve, and h" ihiiiH-rt that jt was a pi'eat support in London lo tlio eredit of I'his country. ITe would suggest that the nmp'.iH: before long should be raised lo two millions. Th<"-e still remained in tlio limit! 1 -' of H'e Mi»is|t>r of Finance sixteen inilb'ons nf unexhausted loan authorities available. lb was a good thing i.'liat these .'iiitlmvities existed, and a good thin:' that tho Minister should "sk For the full .unounli. whether tl; would all bo needed at once or not. Jt was of tho utmost inipoil-nnco .that ths».Government should have full supply

for meeting manifold'requirements arising out of liho war.

Compulsory Purchase,

Silt JOHN PINDLAY (Hawke's Bay) drew attention to a curious anomaly in the. law relating no tho acquisition of land for soldier settlement.- The compulsory powers of the Governmenc for acquiring land for settlement in tho Act of llldt wore in effect dangerous to the Government, and in consequence of. this tiio Act had been amendeil in 1908 to determine the amount of compensation b,> reference to the valuation for taxation purposes. But to acquire land conipulsoiily for soldier settlement the old procedure as defined by the Act of 1908 had to be followed. He urged that provision should bo made to take land for soldier settlement on at least 'as favourable terms as those on which land could be taken for civilian settlement. The Eight Hon. W. I<\ J[ASSEY (Prime Minister) said that the member for Hawke's Bay was right up to a point. At different times different methods had been tried for tho acquisition of land conrpulsorily. It was true, as Sir John Vmdlay "had'said, that there was ,room for con.6pi racy among Land owners to extort extreme prices under the Public works Act. The amendment allowed a land owner to fix his own valuation, :i high valuation, and to, pay ytaxes on it, and Hie Government could 'not get land except by paying the extreme values, set upon it by owners. In tho legislation for the acquisition of laud for soldier settlement tho Government thought it wise to follow Mio sunnier mw'-i uml'"' tho 190S Act, which was preferable, with its admitted faults, to that other process of buying at tho owner's own vai.uation for taxation purposes. He believed, that tho operations of the Lands Department in the settlement of soldiers had been remarkably successful. There would 'be losses, but they would be small, ho believed. The amount of money involved was <>normous, but tho money was not "oing out of the country, and there would Ee security for tho money borrowed.

Mr. Russell Finds Fault., The Hon. G. W, RUSSELL (Avon) said that the House, before passfng the Bill, ought to be given the fullest-information about the purposes for which tlio taoney would be .required. The freehold tenure was being offered'to the soldiers. Ho thought it might bo advisable to offer land to soldiers also 011 leasehold tenure. The 'Government had paid enormous prices for some land. Ho referred to the ICopanq Settlement at Mnnawnty,. saying that he understood it had beqn bought at .£IO,OOO above the valuation for taxing purposes—this oh an area of 472 acres. He intended to move for a return as to prices paid for blocks of land acquired for soldier settlement. When this return was produced it would bo shown that there had been placed on the shoulders of the soldier settlers' burdens of interest which thoy would never bo able to get rid of in/ their lives, llio Land Purchase Board had been stampeded by tho ruling high prices of butter-fat. This was a- wrong basis. Tho Government should have bought on the values as dctermined by tlio State Valuation Department. "Whilo the National Government was in existence," ho said, "our tongues were tied, our 'hands were tied, our feet were tied. Tlio attitude lam taking tonight is the same us I liavo always taken as a member of the Government, so my conscience is clear." He went on to say that tho operations of the "Government as a big land buyer had forced up the value of land. Tho Government, might luivo with advanjjngo placed soldiers 011 unimproved Crown lands by opening them up with railways and roads. By doing this production would bo increased, and tlio country would be lieuefited. Tlio country did not benefit if one man were put off a farm and another put 011 it. Ho admitted that very often this might bo to tho advantage of the soldier, but the country, did not benefit. He did not grudge the soldier his advantage, but flip soldier going on highly improved land had 110 chance of any unearned increment. Referring again to valuation of land, he said tliat owing to dolaya in -tho making of these valuations theiro must 1)0 a hundred millions of laud values not ta_\ed at all. In many counties 110 valuations had been made for five, 6ix, or oven ten years. great inoreases in" value wero going on all ovci - tho country it was wrong that •raluations should bo so long delayed. If neccssary tho valuation staff 6hould bo increased tenfold. To deal with repatriation effectively thero should bo a grand committee of the House, representative of all sections of the House, and not merely a small committee of Ministers.

Mr. G. V. PEARCE (Patea) said ho approved very strongly of tho scheme proposed by the soldiers for the* settlement of unoccupied lands. He 'hoped that s6mo of the millions to bo provided by this Bill, would be used to settle parts of the Urewera oountry, and opening it up with roads and railways. No doubt the present price of land, was inflated, and some of tho inflation was due to the Government purchase operations. The settlement of new areas would have the double advantage of not forcing up tho price of land, and of increasing the 'production of the country. Ho believed very strongly in the settlement of soldiers on land, and it would be a splendid thing for them and for the men themselves if they could bo settled successfully. Minister Gives Facts,' The . Hon. D. H. GUTHRIE (Minister of Land 9) said that he proposed to supply tho information asked by tho mem-

ber for Avon. As to that gentleman's suggestion that the prices of land pui'chased were too high, every purchase had come before Cabinet, of which the honourable gentleman had been- a member, and tho honourable gentleman had had there full opportunity for expressing opinions as to the prices to be paid. Some of the land for which tho highest prices had been paid was proving the best' for settlement. On tne Kopono Settlement only one mnn was a penny in arreor. It must lint be supposed that the Government bought land without any care. Very careful valuations weromade, and they wero conservative rather than otherwise. Often land was obtained for soldiers at very much less than the price at which it was-offered to the soldiers in private negotiations. He men-1 tioned one case in which two soldiers had offered to buy land for ,£37 10s. per .acre, and the Government had bought for ' them the somo land at .£27 10s. He also

wished to point out to the member .for Avon that the leasehold tenure was used extensively in the settlement, of soldiers. It was not possible to buy land at Government valuation in any part of New Zealand becauso tho owners would not «11 it. Prices of produce were such as to induce buyers to offer high prices for lond.

All lion, member: Have you taken any land comptUsorily? Mr. Guthrie said that he had sent circulars ,to every big landholder, in the. country informing him that land was needed for soldiers', settlement. The result of this had been that some owners hod otTered their laud. If enough land should not be offered, the Government would have to take it compulsorUp to date 1111 soldiers had fieen placed on land or established in houses, and about 1000 more applications were under consideration, about to bo granted. Only two eoldiers had beou settled prior W March, 1910. On farm lauds the total number of soldiers settled was 2057. Ho dotniled also tho assistance given to the soldiers under other headings. The averago cost of settling a soldier on land was from j®oo to .£2700. Taking the average for farm selections and houses, it was about jEDOO per man. The work of settling the soldiers was an enormous task, aiul ho knew no officer of the Lands Department who was not keenly anxious to do his best for tho soldiers.

Tlio Hon. D. BUDDO (Ifaiapoi) said that 110 thought tlio Government had not yet been rash in the settlement: of land, but hod 'been progressing «n safe lines.

Mr. Buddo argued that Iho Governments purchase or small properties for soldiers had raised hind values and no increased the burdens of many farmers, who lmd to buy hind. The land purchase organisation still required to bo strengthened. He did not suggest that the Minister of Lands should wait for rcdueod vaf.ues, since 110 material declino in values was likely to take place in tho near future, Tho country was waiting for a definite account of tho expenditure of war moneys.

Mr. H. Gi BLL (Christchurch South) uiigcd that much care was required in (lie purchase of land for returned soldiers, lest tho time shouM pomo when. Parliament would bo required to voto

money in order to reduce the rants. Land had been bought within ft low miles of C'hristchiirch at £120 per acre. Somo Criticism. Mr. V. KEIiD (Bay of Islands) said land had been purchased that should not have been taken. Tho Government had placed inexperienced men on highly cultivated, costly land. The North Auckland district contained thousands of acres of good Grown land still awaiting settlement. The Government should have.dealt with theii!. .lands first, thus increasing production and [living the, soldiers a bettor chance than they could have on 1 highly-improved land. The Government could have secured labour for proper roiidni,? and improvement .of the bush laud. The policy of holding all Crown lands ior returned soldiers would have to be reconsidered. It, would be lo the advantage of the returned soldiers to have some experienced married fanners among them, and he considered also that some consideration should be given to soldier? of the Empire from outside Xew Zealand. •Mr. G. WITTY' (Uiccarton); gam credit for good work to the Minister of Lands, but complained of delay in the purchase of lands. The purchase officers should bo men who knew land values and were jierinainbd with loial conditions. The Government lu\d paid .£l3 an acre for land that could have been Mien under the Public Works Act at JJI2. ?

About "Dear Land." Mr. E. NEWMAN (Enngitikei) said that the progress made under the soldiers' settlement schemo had been better than the Ilouse had ever expected. Very good work had been done in unprecedented difficulties by the Minister and his Department, and the present position must bo considered satisfactory, it was being said that land was dear today. His own opinion was that although the price of land was higher to-day, the land was"' not so dear as fifteen, years ago. Prices of produce were more than proportionately high to-day bv comparison with tlio price of. land, and! the position of the settler was much more assured to-day than fifteen years ago. llis opinion was that the sections allotted to soldiers were too generally. He especially urged the Minister to settle biiish lands where they woro available. He was strongly of opinion that all settlers should be given the right to acquire the freehold of tlnnr sections. Creating a Big Demand.

Mr. E. M'CALLUM .(Wairau) said that by providing largo sums of money for tho purchase of land, Parliament was creating a demand for land, tlio effeot of which must bo to fo*se up prices. Re thought land sliould have been secured earlier,- in order that the unearned increment might not be added to the sellintc price. Ho expressed dissatisfaction with the methods of compulsory purchase of land. ,v Mr. G. J. ANDERSON (Mataura) said that in the past two months he had been interviewed by numbers of soldiers regarding tho long del'avs in setting business through the Department; Ho thought that these delays might be reduced. lie spoke also of the case of tho soldiers who had been holders of L.I.P. sections More going 011 service, and who, by absence from the country, los.t their opportunity to purchase the. freehold. Ho urged that these men should have tho right, of purchase restored to thcm._ It was his experience that fruiall holdings of five a ores or in the couufcry were not taken up. Near to cities lie thought such allotments wouHd bo taken up, antl he would like to Bee the Minister try tliem. Ho was not-pessi-mistic about land values. One concession lie thought the Government might maTse to the soldier was. to allow the transfer of the lanil to tho soldier to be made fre,o of taxation. Nor should the soldier bo nsked to my rent in advance. He strongly opposed the raising of the loan free of incomo tax. V Da'ngers of High Values. The Hon. W. D. S. MACDONALD (Bay of Plenty) said it was natural that people who had experience of farming in New Zealand should- be a little sceptical regarding the maintenance of the present high prices. Tho Government ought 'to bo cautious. lie realised die difficulties that had confronted the Minister of Lands, and the importance of settling the soldiers, but there was no disguising the fact that some ' returned soldiers had been induced to take up land on terms that would probably not be accepted by experienced farmers. Very high prices could be paid safely for good dairying land, but pastoral lands were in a different position. Mr. Mac Donald 6nid that enormous areas of good virgin land were availablo in the Bav'of Plenty, wliero scarcely a soldier had yet been settled. The L'rewera block aloae had an area of COO,OOO acres, of which the Government had purchased about half. He hopetythe Minister of Lands would spend somo of the new loan money 011 the settlement of soldiers in tho Bay of Plenty, although there wife a clamour for laud in the district. Many very large estates were held in the Bay of Plenty.

Mr. E. P. LEE (Oamaru) said ho' thought the ""Bill, in its present iform, would comnel the Minister to raise the loan free of income tax. He. contended that the loan should be raised at a fixed rate of interest, say, 5 per cent., with liability to income tax. The tax payable bv iaree bondholders would more than ooiuneusato the Government for extra interest.

The Hon. A. T. KG AT A (Eastern Maori'i said that the Government had been driving hard bargains in the acc/uisition of land from Maori ownars. No people had done less profiteering than the Native owners of unoccupied lands on the East Coast, because the Govern-, ment had not allowed tho price of the land to advance. He complained that tho Government would not do enough to i>ress on .with roads and railways to open up the Urewera and other Biy of Plenty lands. Ho denied that there was lack of labour. Maoris, returned men of the Pioneer Battalion, could very easily bo encased for'these works. The debate was continued by Messrs." G. Hunter (Waipawa), J. M'Combs (Lyttelton), J. A. Young (Waikato) and J. P. Luke (Wellington North). (Left • sitting.)