THREE ISSUES

Dominion, Volume 12, Issue 276, 18 August 1919, Page 8

THREE ISSUES

L ABOUR ALLIAN.CE AND THE COAL DISPUTE

DEPUTATION TO MEMBERS OF . CABINET

NATIONALISATION URGED

A. deputation representing the National Allianoe of Labour (the Transport Workers' Federation) interviewed tho members of tho Ministry on Saturday with reference to the coal dispute. The members of the .deputation included some of tho miners' delegates who recently conferred with the coal mine owners in Wellington. The groups of workers represented by the alliance inoluded the seamen, the waterside workers, the railwayinen, the drivers, and the tramwaymen. The deputation was received by the Prime Minister, Sir Joseph Ward, Sir James Allen, Hon. T. M. Wilford, Hon. D. H. Guthrie/Hon. W. H. Herrles, Hon. G. W. Russell, Hon. W. D. f>. MacDonald, Hon. J. A.- Hanan, and Hon. Dr. Pomare.

Mr. H. Hampton said that the deputation, representing a very large body of workers, had no apology to make for taking a hand in the ooal dispute, The whole body of workers was vitally affected by the coal shortage. ' Many workers had been thrown out of employment already. The deputation was not approaching the Government in any hostile spirit. It was animated by a sincere desire to bring abont a settlement that' would be satisfactory to all concerned, including the general community. It asked that the industrial position ehould be improved to such an extent as to pre vent any similar trouble arising in the future. It was trying to approach the question not from a sectional or selfish point of viewbut from a national point' of view. '"We are here to put before you reasons why the miners could not accept the offer made by the mine owners." said Mr. Hampton. "In presenting these reasons we are presenting them for your consideration and for the joint consideration of Cabinet, and, that being so. we are anxious .to avoid any argument on details. That does not mean that if wo do not make any aspect clear we will not answer questions, but we think it very desirable that every effort ehould be made to avoid this deputation eutering'into an acrimonious discussion. So certain facts will be placed before you by the speakers. . j These t'actd are submitted for your tion. and' we take it they will be fully considered. We do not expect or anticipate that you will give any definite reply to-day to anything that we may say. Wo can't expect that. All that we ask is that what -we put before you will be fully considered_ by you in all its bearings, and that it will be treated as a matter of the utmost urgency." The Miners' Attitude. The mine owners, continued Mr. Hampton, ! had published their offer, but up to the present there had been no public announcement of the attitude of the miners towards that offer. It was only right that some public statement should be made in reply to tho employers. He was going to present some of the reasons which the mine delegates had advanced to the alliance in explanation of why the employers' offer had not beon accepted. 11l toe first place tiio agreement offered by tho employers was not a national agreement. It contained a proposal that existing agreements should remain in operation for tho period for whioh they had been signed. That proposal meant that nine mines would be excluded from the operation of the'proposed now agreement. Air. Hampton ■ named theso mines. ,

Mr. Massey: All soft- coal mines. Mr. Hampton: "Yes. That excludes about 800 men, or 40 per cent, of tho total iruinber of men employed." It wins admitted that ..the conditions in the niiius varied, but the workers did not think that those variations ought to stand- in. the way of a national cgreement. The tendency all over the world was for industrial'organisation to take ii national basis. The Whitley icport recommended the organisation of industry on national lines. The report of tho American Committeo on Industrial Relations made the samo recommendation. Experience had shown that there was a better prospect of industrial peaco when tho organisation of the woTkers was national than when it was local and sectional. National Organisation Demanded. The deputation wished to be perfectly candid, said Mr. Hampton. Mr. Massey had euggested that tho conditions in the mines varied. ■ '. ■ Mi-. Massey: The conditions are not the same in tho mines you mentioned as in the mines where 'hard coal is mined. Mi , . Hampton: "We admit there are variations in the different districts, but that is not sufficient justification for there to exist any suspicion that by any agreement the employers want to cnallenge the right of tho workers to national organisation. Wo want to be oandid on tliis point. 'Itee is u suspicion that the object of this olause exempting these men from the agreement is to dislocate the national organisation. AVe are here to suggest that all suspicion of that character should be at once removed. AVe stand for the right of the workers to have a national organisation whore thero is a national industry concorned, and to deal "with conditions and pay through the national head pi Hint national organisation. It is far too late in. tho day for that right to bo '■ challenged. We are not here to make any wild -threats,' but to i.challenge the right of any industry to have a national organisation i-3 to in- ! vite industrial trouble." Mr. Hampton I added that tho railwaymen for years I had had a national organisation, and ! though there had been times when i groups oT workers did not think their interests were being sufficiently guarded, the arrangement on the whole nad worked well. . Three Issues.

The' deputation, .said-' Mr. Hampton, wished to put three clear-out issues before the Government, as folio , *:— (1) Aro the miners entitled to a wage equivalent, to tho pre-war wage? (2) Does the employers' oft'er bring tho' miner's wage up to that standard? ' ' ■

(3) If it does not, why not? If discussion wero confined to these clear-cut issues he though he eouid seo a way out of the trouble. He could 'understand it being said during the. war that every section of* the '.omiminity ought to be prepared to endure its share of hardship and sacrifice, (specially in view of the sacrifices that vera being made by the men on the battlefield. But the-win , was over, and it was clear that the workers were entitled at the very least to the equivalent of the pre-war wages! They liiisht 'be entitled to more. Statesmen had talked.a good (leal about the birch of « now era. The statements of the mine owners showed /hat during tho war the miners' wages had been increased 35 per cent, on pieco rates and J5 per cent, on daily rates. It was exceedingly difficult to get any exact figures regarding the increase in tho cost of living. -.The Government Statistician ehowed an increase on tho three food groups and rent of nearly SO per cent. It eeemed a fail , estimate that the total increase in the cost of living was in tho neighbourhood of 55 per. cent. Tho Board of Trade had auggested tlmt the increase was about 52 per cent. Many people believed that it was much higher, llr. Massey: Can you state what wero tho average earnings of the miners before the war?

Mr. Hampton "Mr. Roberts will deal particularly with flial matter, and will put fin) figures before you." Th« miners had been appealed to during th? war to hew more coal, and it iippearcd that they had lc-pomied to that appeal. The Board of Trade's ligures showed that tho average hcwiii" of a miner during the livo years of the war was :!jIS, as against 3'Mi in (ho live years before the war. 'i'lio Board of Trado had iilsu pointed out that during tho war the mine ownera had worked tho easiest portions of the mines. This might account for part of the increased hewing rale. In either case tho miners onghtnot to bo penalised now by baring the increased output counted against. I hem when earnings were being discussed. The diflicut coal had still to be won.

Nationalisation the Remedy, The deputation had notcoine barren ot suggestion for the settlement of the diffleulty that had arisen. The workers had como to'the co.idlusion th;il (hero never would bo satisfactory conditions in the coal industry, from'(he point nf view of the miners or the general com in unity, ad long as the nonlrol of the industry was left in private hands. They wished to suggest that tin- lime had arrived when tho industry should lie controlled by the Siale. lie did not deny that State ownership had its limitations, lie had learned lo recognise these limitation* during twenty-live years' association with the railway service. Hut lie hud yet to meet the person who would jt-riuiisly contend that the railways ought to be played in private hands. ,it would be said that there hod been strikes in the ytate mines, and that State ownership .would not get over .industrial troubles. He suggested that troubles affecting tho State mines had had their ..origin in tho private mines. The State Mines. Mr. J. Roberts sketched the negotiations with the mine owners from the point of view of Uie miners. TCe said that the minora had consented to withdraw for the time being six of their demands wluch the employers refused, to discuss. They did this in the hope of reaching a settlement, beoause they were earnestly anxious to relieve the present difficult situation. But the owners had not made mi offer that the Relegates could conscientiously recommend tho miners to accept. Ho wished to emphasise that the improved working conditions for which miners were asking were practically all in operation already in the State mines. The State mines were paying a minimum wage averaging 14s. 7id. " per shift for the three mines. Why should not miners receive minimum living wage cVen when working in bad places where high production was impossible? Mr. Roberts fluffed figures regarding miners' wages for tho purpose of showing that the best wages were mid in the State mines and that the aoiiial average earnings 'of miners were not large. During tho last six months the average weekly wage in the State mine at Point Elizabeth had been j!5 10s. 7d. The average weekly waste in all privately-ownea mines throughout New. Zealand had been only M lie. 7d. Yet the coal from the State mines was sold to the people lGs. a ton cheaper than the coal from the private mines. It had been suggested that the miners would sit back on a minimum wage and reduce their production of coal. Yet the men in tho State mine. w,Hh a minimum wage, had to their credit their highest production in the world. The price of State coal had not been increased during the war. to anything like tho same extent as the price of coal from the private mines. New Zealand mine owners. stood alone in refusing a minimum wage. Australia, England, and America, had the minimum wage. There might'be exceptions in the cases of certain mines, but generally the miners got a minimum wage ■in those countries. Figures had been quoted to show the high daily earnings ofminers. Tho real test was the average weekly wage, which he had quoted, and he would point out that the earnings were lowest in... the largest mines. The average wage of the mine workers in the private mines throughout New Zealand had advanced only 27 per cent, on the 1914 rates.

Observing Agreements. The employers had proposed that the miners should agree to make no new demands during the currency of the agreement, ' said Mr. Roberts. Tho miners could not accept such a provision. They wore entitled under the laws of the country to ask for increases if the cost of living rose. Mr. Massoy: Dons not that cut both ways? The cost of living might fall and the wages would remain. Mr. Roberts: Unfortunately for the workers tho tendency during the last fouV years has been for the cost of liv-' ing to rise, and the tendency continues. The legislation of last session gives both sides, tho right to ask for the variation of an agreement or award. Then the mine owners, continued Mr. Roberts. had inserted ,in their proposed agreement a provision rhnt the miner l ? should tell the minors in Australia that they could come to New Zealand to mine coal. A clause of that kind would defeat its own ihirposo. Tho Australian miners .would know that the clause had been put. into the agreement by the mine owners, and they would not come. The reply of the miners was that they would tell the truth about the mining conditions in. New Zealand. The present position was that, tho Australian miner had better wages and belter conditions than the New Zealand miner. Another point lie would impress upon the Government, in the con?ideration of wnges, was that, at present the miners could secure high production Because the mine 3 were' undermanned, the demand for coal was keen, and all tho coal a miner could how was lifted. But when normal conditions were restored and mines were fully manned there would be tho old delays and blockages, and tho individual output would decline. The Only Remedy. The only way to increase the supply of coal in Now Zealand was to increase the number of men in Hie mines, % making tho conditions sufficiently attractive. There was no need to go to Australia for competent miners. Them were many men in New Zealand who had left tho industry or were lowing it on,account of tlie conditions. The miners had asked for a provision that miners should not be required to do trucking. Mr. Massey: Is it usual for miners in .other countries tn do their own trucking?

Mr. Roberts: "No." The British minors did not truck, and had not done so for years. Trucking reduced production By taking the miner away from tho face, by exposing him to draughts in the main drive, and by keeping ; his mate idle in many cases, since, one man could not work on a high face .without another ;nan to watch the coal. Mv. Eoberts added that in Now Zealand experience had shown that States mines wero more efficient than. privf-J-.n mines. They could f*ivo better conditions and sell cheaper coal. The question required, to be settled quickly. "Nationalisation the Solution." Sir. Massey: I want you to state concisely and definitely what you are asking the Government for. You want us to take over the dispute? Mr. Hampton: I omitted to state that. Mr. Eoberts: Recently there was a dispute on tho Auckland tramways! Tho Cilv Council took over the dispute and settled it and took over the tramways afterwards. ' Alp. Massey: A very good thing for tihe company. Mr. Roberts: It may be but it is a better thing for tho public. Is not the coal supply of New .Zealand sufficiently important that something of. that nature should bo done at the present time ? That is our idea, and I believe it is the only safe solution of the coal trouble. 'IMic mine owners have failed to supply the people with coal. We ask. the Government to doal with the mnttc-r. Mr. Hampton said that nationalisation was the deputation's solution of the trouble. ,]f thai: solution wes not accepted by Cabinet, the deputation would' be prepared to consider an alternative solution. Ho asked tihat the matter should be treated rs oue of urgency, because the position was delicate and needed very quick handling. 1 PRIME MINISTER'S REPLY. A VITAL QUESTION. The Prime Minister said that, he had been glad to hear Hie views of tho speakers, who had put their case clearly. "I am very glad to hear that the conditions in tho State mines tire satisfactory," snid Mr. Massey, "and wo ehali bo very glad indeed to see tho conditions in the other coal mines brought up to 'Ihe level of tho Slate minis. The improvement of housing at the mines we hare, in view, but unfortunately we have a givnl many other Iliing* to ill tend to, iind probably il will be some time before we ca;i imiko the necwsary improvement to the housing lit the mines throughout the Dominion. Everybody present must recognise the exceedingly serious position we havo got into'. Here we have a country that, as far us 1 know, is able to mpply itself with co.il for a very long time—many liiindi'cds, , if not thousands of years—but in spito of tli ii t fact we have the railway services dislocated and tho whole population of tho country suffering serious inconvenience and loss of employment through lack of coal. Tho railway Service ie the biggest ipdustry in the

country, the bey industry on which all other industries depend, it is true that we have been depending in the past lo some extent on imported coal, but 1 hope the day will come when it. will not be necessary to go outside New Zealand for coal, ilow tlmt is to be brought about lam not able to say. It is the business of each and every one of us to seek a solution of tins trouble. We are iu the position at present ui a house divided ugainat itself. A country divided agaiuft it.s«!f cannot prosper." Jlr. i\!as.-:ey said lie was aware that: • there was industrial unrest throughout the world. It was one of tho results of iho great war. i-iut it should be the task of i>ll to end that unrest and get back to the position in which the great majority of the people would bo satisfied with the conditions under which they lived and worked. Hβ had been asked if miners woro entitled to a wage equivalent to tho pre-war wage. He would answer that question in this way, that every section of tho community was entitled to a fair share of the earnings of fche community. No Arbitration Court or other tribunal had bean able to answer that question satisfactorily. Wages or Conditions.

It seemed to him, said Mr. Massey, that the principal part of the coal dispute was not regarding conditions. He did not think .there should be any difference of opinion regarding conditions. He had not had an opportunity of reading official documents, but he gathered that the dispute related chiefly to wages. Sfr. I'. O'Boarke: Conditions are tho main thing. Mr. Massey: Then I am not able to see why conditions should not be improved where they require improvement. That is exactly where 1 stand 'as far as conditions are concerned. I understand that the owners, in reply .to the miners' demands, have offered to increase wages by 10 per cent, in the case of piecewprkers, and 15 per 9ent. in the case of wages men, I think 1 heard 6omeone say that the minors prior to the war were earning 225. 7d. per day.

Mr. Koberte: The average at the present time in the two State mines is 225. 7d. Mr. Massey: Ten per cent, added on to 22'. 7d. brings it up to 255. Mr. J. Arbuckle: The average at the Point Elizabeth mine is 245. 3d. At the other mine it is 20a. 7d. The Point Elizabeth mine is finished, and you have to "o back to the Liverpool mine, where the average is 20s. 7d. When the Liverpool mine is fully manned the tnpiwa-y will not take away enough coal to alloxy the men then employed the present average output. Once every mine in New Zear laud is fully manned, then the output of the mines will be much greater, out the earnings of the individual miner will be less. There has been an inoreaee in the rate of wages other than the percentage increase granted by the owners, beoause the miner haa been, able to get away every ounce of coal he hewed. Mn Massey: I am very glad to have that information. The point is that you are offered an increase of 10 per cent, on the present rates. The rates were put up very considerably during tho war period. Voices: Ten par cent, on the pre-war rates. Hon. W. D. S. Mac Donald: On tho present rates. Contentious Matters,

Mr. Hampton.: I ask you not to raisa contentious matters. We eay, without disrespect to you, that what we want is tho considered, opinion of Cabinet as a whole, and we have submitted our opinions with that object in view. Wo are willing to aaswer any questions, but to cuter into argument that can onTy lead to acrimony is not desirable'at all. Mr. Massey: Then what you want to do is to put forward one side only? Mr. Hampton: No. AVe came to put our side bet'oro you ae the Government. Wo take it that as a< National Government you will consider it. ... Wo can t take your opinion <as being the expression of the opinion of the •Government aa a whole. ■• Mr. Maesey said that was not a fair position. The deputation hod put its side of the case. His concern wns to get at the actual facts of the position from the point of view of the whole community. He intended to do that. Reference had . been made to tho cost of living. Tho Government had tried during the war, and was still trying, to keep down the cost of living, and what the miners asking was going to increase the oest of living to ■every individual in the oonimuiiity.

The Cost of Living, Mr. Hampton: "That raises another argument that we are not prepared to go into. An argument on the cost ol living is nob going to do any good. I submit respectfully that there are other opportunities where you can put forward what you want to put forward. Wβ ask for a straight-out official reply, not your reply. Wo have put a certain position to the members of Cabinet as a whole. Mr. Hampton added that Cabinot would be able to give a definite and considered reply when it 'had considered the representations. A discussion at tho present stage would simply court disaster and divert attention from the object in view. Mr. Hutchison: This increase could be granted from the owners' prC&ts. Mr. Hampton: There you are! Mr. Hutchison, yoii have no more right to raise this point than Mr. Massey,