MEAT EXPORT TRADE

Dominion, Volume 12, Issue 275, 16 August 1919, Page 8

MEAT EXPORT TRADE

Important statements about the shipping situation with special reference to the m«it export industry of tho country, were made by tho Eight Hon. W. F. llassey and Sir Joseph Ward by . a deputation representative of tho producers of tho Wellington district,which waited on memb.ers of the Government yesterday.

Mr. Edward Nowinan, M.P., introduced the deputation, which, he said, was representative, of tho farmers! unions, the A. and P. associations,.the freezing companies, and other producers. Tho deputation was tlio outcome of a number of meetings throughout tlio country, held because of the anxiety existing as to the ■prospects of tho freezing industry in view of tho large amount of meat in the stores awaiting shipment, and of the scarcity of shipping, and in view also of the anxiety existing about tho arrangements for the disposal of our meat in Britain in the" future. Tho deputation had come before Ministers for tlio latest information available' on the sut ject.

THE PRODUCERS' ANXIETY. , Mr. George Marshall, president of the .Wellington Provincial Farmers' Union, congratulated Mr. Massey and Sir Joseph "Ward on their able representation "of New Zealand at the Peace Conference. The cause of the present alarm of the 'producers ivas that thero were at present seven million carcasses of meat in the stores, and tho nest season would . '"bo beginning in four months. In the , Otailiapo Works, in which he happened 'to bo interested, they had not been able to get a single shipment of meat away Brace tlie works had closed down, anil the stores were full. The works should open again in December. Tho producers WBreqnito satisfied that everything that could have been done from this end bad been done, and for this they gave Mr. Guthrie and Mr. MaeDonald every 1 credit. But the producers were, yet noc altogether satisfied. They were not satisfied that ships were unloaded in Britain as quickly as they might be, or that the authorities at Homo wore really anxious to get the New Zealand moat home quickly. There was a suspicion that, the Imperial authorities preferred, to pay storage here rather than hayp the jneat in storo at Home. ' The price of'meat was so high at Home that tho public was not in a position to bny dt. sufficiently quickly ■to it moro quicldy. One of the main points of the'deputation was that tho Imperial authorities, were selling our meat at such a price, that it would cover tho cost of, tho American meat for which very high prices had been jiaid—ls. 2d. or Is. 3d. ft pound, as against ,sd. a pound for New.'Zealand meat. In order ,to make lip. tho loss on the' American meat, tho authorities were selling New Zealand meat at,'such a price that the people could not afford to buy it in any quantity. This was very unjust to the New Zealand producers. If it were sold at a price that would simply clear expenses incurred, the British public would be induccd to buy it. Ho thought that this point had not been pressed with the Home authorities as it might have been. The producers did not complain of mjusliao oil the part of the Imperial authorities, but this particular practice ■was certainly unjust to them. If our meat' were sold at a fair price, regardloss of tho price of tho. American meat, it would bo possiblo to-sell it in quantitv. At the time that the producers agreed' to the sale of meat to the British' Government, the producers considered that the price agreed upon was a fair and -just price, lho .British Government had later bought American moat, and had paid an extreme ■price for it. It was distinctly unfair to Now Zealand that New Zealand meat should now he sold at a prico to cover loss which would otherwise bo made on. American meat. . Beoauso tho meat .was ■ not-being sold, tho.lmperial authorities did'not wish to get our meat away from here, aid the result was that the freezing industry was going to po hampered. What the deputation, asked was that a small committee- °f loading • producers should "bo sent from New Zealand before tho present position became more acute, and that the Government should accredit this committee, in order that' it mienthe better be able to do the work. Ihe need was most urgent, -because it nothing were done the danger was that in the middle: of next season the works would have to f clos_e dowji. ... HUGE STOCKS. . Mr W J. Poison said that the members of tha-deputation yrere there chiefly as men in search of information. They Jiad certain knowledge W td "!R ation, and that knowledge filled them with, a great deal of alarm, lley knew tliaf the shipping .supply had been slip•ning back each year, the accumulation ot •meat, carried . forward from season to season, becoming larger and larger, the shipping that had been, promised had al- ' ways failed to materialise fully. He believed that shipping was not the sole remedy for the trouble, although _it would bo of very great assistance. Ho vfQB informed, &nd tho information was supported to some extent by newspaper correspondents, that there wore approximately 10,000,000 carcasses of frozen meat at Home at tho present time, and that the Imperial authorities had 200,000 tons of .meat, or approximately another lio 000,000 carcasses, to lift from the 'United States. Add to that another 10,000,000 carcasses in store on this side of the world, and it would bo >-een that the Imperial Government had 30,000,01)0 carcasses to disposo of, without considering the new season's killings in iNew Zealand, also included in the purchase scheme. It was slated that the people of the United -Kingdom, during the last four years, had got out of the habit or eating meat on tho old scale. Ihe Imperial authorities had reduced the price and increased tho allowance, but tho public had not absorbed tho .additional ration. Then newspaper correspondents were saying that Home-grown supplies of meat were sufficient for the civilian population of Britain. . . sir. Massey: Who told you that? jlr. Poison: "It is stated by newspaper .correspondents. . Wo. aro. here to ask 'what you know on the subject.' Mr, Poison stated that, if tho whole of the meat bought under the Imperial qontract • was to go to Britain before any meat was lifted for the New Zealand producers there would bo ft period of stagnation at tho close of tho requisition next,year. The freezing companies, with their storos full and tho prospects of the market uncertain, would not bo able to buy meat, They would requiro tho farmers to pay for freezing and storago, and to take the risk of shipment. That would be tho opi»rtunity of the American Meat Trust. This trust was,establishing branch con- .,, cems, with capital to tho amount of .t5Q,000",000, to operate in Britain and Europe. Mr. Massey: They will bo able to offer inducements..

,Mi. Poison: Exactly. His own suggestion was that tho Imperial Government should bo asked to place Now Zealand meat on tho market at Home without either profit or loss. New Zealand meat should stand quito apart from American meat. It should bo sold at a prico that would encourage consumption. The Government Should impress upon tho Imperial authorities tho desirability, of getting lid of-the meat they wero supposed to hold' in the United States. It tho Imperial authorities would Allow a certain proportion of unrequisitioned meat to-be shipped with the requisitioned meat aftpr,tho close of ; tho purchaso arrangement in June next tho situation would be eased to somo extent. It was essential in the meantime that shipping should Ibe increased as far as possible. Tho critical ttone would come wlion the. Imperial, jpipbaso ended, next year.

- SHIPPING I SIGHT IHE OUTLOOK IMPROVING STATEMENTS BY RETIMED MUSTERS ■ j . TIE WAR DIFFICULTIES

PRIME MINISTER IN REPLY SHIPPING THE WORST TROUBLE. The Prime Minister thanked tho speakers for their congratulations. Ho quite agreed wi'.h the proposal that the producers should send llomo a committeo to look after their interests there. It would bo an excollent thing for the producers to do. It would givo them a lot of information and a clear insight into tho meat trade as it was conducted at Home, which they would never acquire in this country. Ho understood that they, were not of course asking tho Government to pay expenses, but only to givo jx> the committee an official position. So far as ha was concerned, ho was quite willing that tho committee should have this, and, although he had not consulted them, ho felt sure that his colleagues would agree with him in this. Shipping had been one of tho most serious troubles with which the Government of New Zealand had had to deal ever since the beginning of the war, and the trouble had intensified as the war went. on. The situation had improved since 'the end of the war, and ho believed 'that it would continue to improve. The difficulty of the New Zealand producers had been met by nn arrangement made in 1915 by which the Imperial Government took over all frozen meat from tm« country, and later the dairy produce and wool. Up till the present time the New Zealand producers had received something like a hundred' and ten millions sterling for these products, and it had been the receipt of these millions tlmt had made it possible for this country to remain in a prosperous condition. . Without theso purchase arrangements Now Zealand could not have been so prosperous, because it could not have got ships in which our produce could have been carried. It was just as well to bo perfectly clear and candid on this point, and he spoke of what he know when ho said that but for theso arrangements wo could not havo_ got tho ships, and tlio produce would have been left on our hands. As business men they knew wliatUhe effect of that would have been on this . Dominion. Tho proof of this was to bo. found in tho immense sums that the Imperial Government had paid for storago of produco during the war period. Some among the deputation were .connected with freezing companies, and they would know something oi their receipts in respect of storage. .Tlio amount "of three thirty-seconds per pound por month did not Mjiiiul very much, but over years it amounted to enormous sums. Actually tho Imperial Government had paid nip till July 31 last for storago .£3,239,466. TJio point lie wished to make was that the Imperial Government would not have paid this storage if tliey had been able |to find ships for the produce. He knew quite well that tho freezing companies hod "used 'the money tliey had received under this ihead for maldiig additious to their storago space. Without this money it would not have teen possible for them to' have erected the additional storage which -tihoy had built during tho past three years. ' Ho did not wish to find fault with tho companies, and ho did not wish to say that the rate, uhnrged for storage- was an unreasonable one..

_ EVERYBODY HAD BENEFITED. This large sum received from the Imperial Government for produce had filtered down through every- section of tho community. . The purchase arrangement would cease on June 30- next, and by that time ho hoped that we should bo able to manage Qur own affairs • without any assistance or interference by tho Imperial Government except 6iich as might be to ensure fair play'for the New Zealand products oil tho British iuarket. , He was certain that the ex-i perience that tho New Zealand producers mad gained during the war period would' bo .to them for many years to come. A great deal of the present embarrassmout was due to the loss by enemy uc: tion of so many ships formerly in the New Zealand trade. In all nineteen ships of a total carrying capacity of 1,838,800 carcasses of meat had been lost, and it was easy to imagine what tho cifcct of this was • ou the commerce of Australasia. A very much larger number of ships were taken out of this trado for the 'purpose of carrying American troops and supplies. It .'was -really matter for surprise, in view of the number. of ships lost .and the number taken for other work, that wo had fared so' well up till the present. He was glad that the outlook was now improving, and to-day it was better than ' many people imagined. OUTLOOK BETTER. He had before him official figures showing .tho amount of meat in store. The number of carcasses' that would be in stpre at the end of August was G,550,000, tha shipments for August being about 600,000. The loading for 'jleptemhet, would bo 750,000 carcasses, leaving at,the end of September 5,800,000 carcasses. . It was well-known, however, 1 that a certain amount of killing went on | in works all tho year through and it was estimated that from September to December there' rould be 210,000 carcasses put into the stores, making tho total to bo accounted for 6,010,000 carcasses. To reduce this amount of six millions to four, millions at the end of tho year.would necessitate-a shipment of 2,010,000 carcesses in October, November and December, or approximately 700,000 canvasses a month. This would require eight steamers a month, and so far as it was possiblo to say these ships would .be forthcoming. This mado tlie outlook not quite so bad as many imagined. He aid not contend that the position was not serious. It was necessary that the .Government here should keep up tho pressure, and endeavour to induce the people at the other ond to give to New Zealand every ship available in order that' this coming season might be got through without inconvenience or loss. lio hoped that by June 30 next wo might have got buck to such a position that it would be possible to begin the next following season without difficulty. He' did not expect that all tho Imperial meat, would havo been taken away by that time, but ho hoped, that it would be reduced to such dimensions that thero would bo no difficulties between tho Imperial Government and the pcoplo in this country . as to tho question of priority of shipmoiit. ■ Both speakers hml said that they did not, think tho Imperial Government had been sufficiently impressed with tho iden that it was their duty to get rid of Mir meat without putting it into the pool along with tho American meat. When ho had been in London in 11)18, ho had been so much impressed with the position referred to by Mr. Mnrslmll and Mr. Poison that ho had drafted a long letter to tho Imperial Ministers concerned. STRONG REPRESENTATIONS MADE. Mr. Massey read this document to the deputation, supplying a -censored edition to tho ftess, the reason being that somv, of tho matter wm confidential. Tho memorandum wii/,' as follows.— In order that the position in which Now Zealand has been placed by tho withdrawal of its shipping may bo mode quite clear, I deom it to bo my duty to place the following information before you:— Commencing with March, 1915, tlie British .Govornmont purchased through tlie Now Zealand Government tho whole of the Dominion'*; output ot' meat and wool for tho period of tho war, and in tho case of wool for one full year after tho termination of hostilities. Tho dairy produce has also been, purchased for several years, arrangements with regard

to price and other conditions being made at tlio commencement, of each season. For the last twelvo months, there lias been serious difficulty with regard to shipping, and it- is not necessary to remind you that this trouble has been intensified siuco last March by the fact that so much shipping has been required for war purposes in tlio North Atlantic. Tlio result is that tlio stores for frozen produco in New Zealand are full lo tlio roof, mid, in consequence, very serious loss and jg being experienced by the people in New Zealand. In addition to this, the Now Zealand season commences in tho North I Island on September i, so that you can easily imagine the very serious financial and industrial .difficulties that will arise unless relief is afforded by more shipping being provided. I want you to lindeirstand that the people of Now Zealand are prepared to put up with any sacrifice if their doing bo will assist in bringing the war to a successful conclusion, but facts have come to light which show that New Zealand's difficulty has been taken advantage of by the American Meat Trusts, who have been disposing of their inferior meat an an enormous profit to themselves with tho result that the price to the British consumer has been seriously increased. Tho Ministry of Food admit also , that the ■ largo profit being tuado in New Zealand meat is being used partly to make up tlio loss on tho American meat. This will cause a very bitter feeling amongst tlio New Zealand producers, with the majority of \y_hom tho Meat Trusts are anathema, Tiie New Zealand producers have not complained oi the prices paid to them, but they will complain bitterly when they know that the profit on their meat is really benefiting those whom they consider as b.eing tho worst typo of exploiters. i I can assure you that what has happened in this connection is really placing another weapon in the hands of our pacifists and other peoplo of that ill; which they will not be slow to take advantage of. ... The cost of Amcrioan meat landed in England is lid. to Is. 3d. Now, supposing equal quantities of meat. were paid for at lid. and Is. 3d., then the average landed cost would be Is. Id. per lb. ido not say that is. the average. 1 believe tho average to bo considerably higher, because, as far as I can ascertain, a very much larger quantity was purchased at tho higher than at tho •lower price. Now, the average lauded cost of New Zealand meat is SJd. to 9d.. Both statements have been made to mo—it may be something between Sid. and Oil., but I am mentioning both for' the purposo of argument. And this will apply to Australia us well as New Zealand, 'because tliQ prices are similatnot exactly alike in both countries, but very nearly. This is mostly American beef. Iho difference in favour of New Zealand, therefore—that is, comparing the landed cost of 'New Zealand meat with tno landed cost of this meat from the United Slaies-is M. to ijd. per lb. Now to make this point. lam informed that a very considerable proportion of this meat was found to bo of sdeh inferior quality that it was condemned on being landed here as unfit for human consumption. I am told that tliero were tickots on'tho mcat-and this came to me from people connected with tlio meat trade—showing that some of it had been in store in tho United States for over two years. Very well. _ Now supposing my figures are approximately correct, tlio difference in favour of New Zealand meat or Australian meat, as the oiiso may bo, would be ill. to «d. per lb. Take 155,000 tons at W. per lb., end the increased cost is .£5,780,6G8. That is the difference in tho cost of 155,000 tons as .between tho United States and New Zealand or Australia. Or it tho difference is did. the increased cost would bo .£6,510,000. It seems to me those figures are sufficiently startling.

Here is a copy of a telegram. I received from Wellington not many dajs ago from the Acting-Prime Minister in New Zealand. Ho says: . "For your information following is summary of position regarding l-' l '®" duce awaiting shipment at Juno 30 —tho end of last month: "Frozen meat, 5,230,000 freight carcasses. "Butter, 123,007 boxes. "Cheoso, 331,05" crates.. "Wool, 121,573 bales. "Hides, 1600 tons. ■ „ "Frozen rabbits,' 76,000 crates. Now that is the position to-day, and by way of showing how serious it-js to lis, just let me quoto the annual estimated output. The annual estimated output for Now Zealand is: Frozen meat, 0,000,000 freight carcasses. Cheese, 756,000 owvtoa. Butter, 880,000 boxes. Wool, 558,000 bales. So that in tho ease of several of these articles wo have almost a year's production in storo to-day in New Zealand. That is ouir position. Since tl]e commencement of tho war lha Imperial Government—using the common term—has purchased tho whole of our meat for tho period of war and for threo months afterwards. It ;s now purchasing our butter and cheese for tho present season, and we have been given to understand that in all probability the butter and cheese will bo purchased for the period of tho war. On that point I am not.able to express a definite opinion. The wool is being purchased for the period of the war and for one season afterwards. Now that is our position, j Those products lmve been purchased by the Imperial Government on the understanding that they will bo taken away from New Zealand. The Imperial Government now controls the shipping, and just let mo admit this, that the war comes first every time. If it is necessary for the purposes of.the war that our ships should be taken to carry troop.* from the United States, there is nothing more to be said. But the men experienced in tho meat trade havo told mo that it was not necessary to purchase this huge quantity of meat from tho United States, that there was sufficient in sight in the United Kingdom itself, and that the ships could have been provided for the purpose of carrying the j balance of the meat necessary from Aus-1 tralia and New Zealand. I make that' j statement not on my own authority, but as a statement made to me by people in the trade who say they know. . ; . Now, it will.easily be seen what a very, serious position wo are getting into in j New Zealand. This is the winter season, i but tho winter will presently cojne to an ; end. We look upon the middle of An- | gust as the beginning of spring. With j spring there will come the usual supply i of meat and dairy produce, and of all ! the other tilings which spring brings j along. What is going to happen to j New Zealand then, with its stores full, ; and dependent as we aro upon our out- j put of produce for tho money required ( to carry on our share of the war'and the ; business of the country—to keep the | whole couiitry going, ns a matter of fact? j I want you to understand, and I want the member's of the conferenco to understand, that we aro face to face with the most serious difficulty New Zealand had ever experienced up to the present moment. I want to emphasise the very serious position we are in. I have endeavoured to get satisfaction from-the different Lie- ' partments of tho State, but up to tho .present I have got no satisfaction—absu- 1 lutely none. 1 cannot, perhaps, blame ' (lie Ministry of Shipping for tho answers j which I receive. I know the Ministry | of Shipping did everything they [.otsi- | bly could to supply ships to get ' our produce uwny last year, : and 1 hope something of the sunie ! sort will be done during tliis season. ! But tho outlook is very much worse ! this time, from a shipping point of view, j than it was at the corresponding |>criod I of last year. Thero is the position, and I- lia.ve to explain it when I go back ' to my own country. . . . But again I say, in tho opinion of many people New Zealand is not being treated fairly in connection with this matter, and I think—and I say it advisedly—moro should lie done to gel, our produce away. The whole of our output lias been pur- ! chased by the Imperial Government, and i: Is impossible to do anything with , it in any other direction. ... I think you will agree with me that \ tho position as set forth in tho fore- ■ going both from tho point of view of : tho producers in tho Dominions and tho , consumers in Britain is sufficiently seri- ; ous to require thorough examination by j British .Ministers. Belicvo mo, Yours sincorely, (Sgd.) AY. Massey. Kt. Hon. A. Bonar Law, M.P., London. P.S.—Tho following Tteuter's telegram . from Washington, dated August 8, was j

published in "Tlio Times" of (ho following day:— "In its report recommending Government acquisition and control of the principal stockyards and cold storage plant in the country, the United States Trade Commission finds that the power of the five chief packing companies 1:. been unfairly and illegally used to manipulate tlio livestock markets, to ,restrict inter-State and international supplies of food, to control the price of dressr-■' meats and other foods, to defraud both producers and food 001131111101-3, to crush effoctivo competition, to secure special privileges from railroads, {lockyard companies, awl municipalities nnd to profiteer. It fays that three of th*' mast powerful banking groups in IVcountry are participating in this food monopoly, and names a long list of stockyards throughout the United States, over GO par cent, of tlio shares of which lie long to this monopolistic group. "Tlio commission's report proceeds: Out of the mass of information in our hands 0110 fact stands out with all possible emphasis—the small dominant groups of American meat are now international in their activities while remaining American in identity. Tlio blame which now attaches to them for ' their practices abroad as well as at homo inevitably will attach to our country, if tho practices continue. "The commission saya that in addition to tho immense properties in the United States tho companies separately or jointly own or control more than half tho export meat production, of tlio Argentine, Brazil, Uruguay, besides investments in other meat-producing conn» tries, including Australia and branches in Great Britain, Franco, Italy, Canada, Denmark, and Paraguay. It adds-.— Under the present 'shipping conditions, big American packers control more than half tho meat 011 which the Allies are dopon<lent."—Reutor. RECENT EFFORTS.

In roply to a question Mr. Massey said that ho hoped it might be possible for the Imperial Government to'tako some action against tho Meat Trust under this new Bill for the suppression of profiteering. Ho added that in this country we had no idea of the meaning of profiteering, and he was surprised that something of the kind had not been dono in England long ago. Mr. Massey went on to refer to a communication sent by him to Sir Joseph Maclay, Controller of Shipping, during his last visit to England. In this letter 110 referred to the acuto congestion of moat and dairy produce in Now Zealand, pointing to the fact that tho quantifies of refrigerated cango awaiting shipment in Australia and New Zealand were 50,000 tons in Australia, and 145,0(10 tons in New Zealand. On the strength of figures quoted ho urged that No,w Zealand should (have consideration. Ho quoted also tho following telegram which he had forwarded through tho GovernorGeneral since his return to New Zealand :~ Sinco, his roturri to Now Zealand tho attention of my Prime "Minister has been called to the) fact that thoro is at present an accumulation of ap? proximately eight million sixty.pound . freight carcasses of meat in tho , freezing stores throughout the Dominion awaiting shipment, ilr. Massey wishes 'to emphasiso most strongly tho seriousness of the posilion, both for the Now Zealand producers and for tho Imperial Government, as the latter is paying very , largo sums for storage. It may not be realised hy tho Board of Trade that at presont the rate for storage is probably amounting to 110 less a sum than one million pounds sterling per annum. My Prime Minister, therefore, requests that an energetic effort should bo . made to reduce tho stocks boforo the season commences, about November 1 next, nnd in ihis opinion, if substantial relief is not forthcoming, 110 sees nothing but chaos in front of all concerned. SHIPPING IN SIGHT. He read also an official list of the number of ships available, as showing that tha outlook was rather better than had bden anticipated somo time ago. August would bo a good month for shipping. Ships arrived and to arrivo during tho month wore Mahin, Port Pine, Armagh, Shropshire, liuapehit, Orurij Otira, Matatua, AVaimate, and Opawa. And tho following ships wero yet to oomo: Essex, Mamari, Port Hacking, Durham, Port Lyttelton, AVaiwera, and Athenic.. For September ships to arrivo would bo Jvaramea, Port Melbourne, Port A'ictor, Kuinara, Hororata, Kaikoura, Ajana, Corinthic, Tainui, Zealandio, Port Alma, and Port Sydney.

DIFFICULTIES AT HOME. Mr. Marshall had said that ships might bo unloaded more quickly at Home. 'That was unfortunately true, but it was difficult to realise at this distanco tho enormous difficulties that had had to lie mot in England recently. At one time there luul been 900 ships in British ports waiting to be unloaded, and !!00 waiting for repairs. This sort of tiling had been going on continuously. Ho had hud a talk with Sir falter Buchanan in London about tho shipping position, and ho 'had given Sir "Walter Buchanan somo letters and shown him round a little to let him understand I ho po'sition. After two days of inquiry Six Walter Buchanan had said that ho had not had the slightest idea of the difficulties -with Which the Now Zealand representatives had been confronted, and that ho was satisfied that everything possible had been done. This was one reason" why he wanted representatives of the .producers to go Home and learn' about the situation for themselves. The difficulties oven now were enormous, but they were small by comparison with what they had been (hiring the war period. AMERICAN MEAT. His opinion was that, very little American meat was being used in England now. During the very worst period oi the war, ■ when it appeared that thero might be a shortago of meat, in Britain, tho total amount of American meat purchased 'Lid been 157,000 tons. He did not believe that there were now 200,(1110 tons of Amorican meat in London. Possibly the figures given included bacon, of which a great quantity was imported from America. Tho buggestion made that enough meat was being _ grown in Britain to meet the requirements of the population was quito wrong, lie knew that Britain was a long way from being able to do this, less able to do it to-day than at any time in tho past 25 years. Ono of the. reasons was that in the years of war, when it appeared that the wheat supplies might be cut off from Britain, much cf the pasture land had been broken up for crop. Nor was it true that tho people of Britain had lost their taste for meat. On the contrary, he belitved that one result of tho war would bo to increase the appetite of tho British people for meat, and that in future they would buy more than they had ever bought before. NO COMPLAINT OF UNFAIRNESS. From some of tho statements ho had made it might appear that he thought New Zealand had 'been treated unfairly by British statesmen. He did not wisil to leavo that impression, because that was very far from being his opinion. The people who had been responsible for' buying in tin.) United Slates had done this becauso it seemed to them to bo necessary at tho time, but British statesmen luul always been only too anxious to do everything they could to do justice to our country, and to see that wo were' given every possible chance to get rid of our produce at fair prices. He assured tho deputation that Sir Joseph Ward and himself had done their lovel best to meet thu situation, and tho Ministers who remained behind in New Zealand had also done their level best from this end. Mr. Poison: Wo believe that. A questioner: Are the stores full of New Zealand meat in England ? Mr. _Alassey said that there was a great quantity of Now Zealand nicnl in store, but the capacity of the stores had been increased. And in future it should be remembered that Now Zealand would not dopend only on London for u market. Thero were other ports prepared to rcceivo meat from iu—Manchester, Liverpool, Newcastle, and Bristol—all of which had large insulated stores wailing ready for our meat when we could semi li: io them. He did not believe that in these stores there was at present a single carcass. He thought wo ought to look for a market lor our meat.in Britain in future, as in the past. The production of meat in South Amoriea had increased enormously in recent years, and this meat would come into competition with New Zoalaud meat. Ho did not think it

would spoil our trade to any extent. It would go la supply North America. THE TRUST. 111 reply to a question, Mr. Massey said that the Imperial authorities understood fully the menace of the Meat Trust, and realised the trouble was one that would have to bo grappled. Mr. Marshall: Would it, bo possible for the British Government to sell our meat independently of the American meat? Mr. Massey .said '.hat he did not think there would be need in Britain for much meat from North America for a long time, because at tho present prices of meat in America it would not be possible to sell in the British market at a profit. There was nothing to be feared from competition from America. Mr. Marshall said that his question had reference rather to American meat at present held in store in Britain. Mr. Massey said 110 did not know in what Avay the British Government was going to get rid of tho American meat in store. It might be necessary to make a serious loss 011 it, and 110 believed that this would bo the right procedure in tho circumstances—to make tho loss and cut it. Mr. Marshall: Are you and your Ministers proparcd to advocate that ? Mr. Massey said that he had not consulted his colleagues, but for himself 110 could certainly answer "Yes," nnd he believed that he would have tho support of other Ministers. Mr. Poison enid that he had information that the stores in Britain wero filled with frozen moat. Mr. Massey said that this probably referred to Government stores. He did not think that all tho stores wero full. He did not for a moment think that stores in centres other than |xmdon were full. SIR JOSEPTWARD THE SHORTAGE OP SHIPS. Joseph Ward said that while ho and Mr. Massey were in England everybody was being rationed on account of the shortage of meat, this shortage being due io tho requirements of tho Army. Until the last seven or eight monthf the Imperial Government had not known how to get enough meat to enable the people to have their ordinary supplies. There was 110 foundation for the report that the stores in the United Kingdom wero full. Ho was sure that everything possible to protect tho interests of New Zealand had been dono by tho Ministers in the Dominion and by the representatives of the country abroad. Ho had to record his personal astonishment that tho Imperial authorities had not pormitled the publication of the reports of the Imperial Conference of last year. Tho reports and the documents that had been laid before the conference would contain everything that tho deputation ought to know. The delegates drew out tlio fact that a profit of 3d. a pound was being made on tho transfer of New Zealand meat from one British Department to another Department. Mr. Massey and himself made a very strong protest regarding this profit, which was being used to balanco the very high prices that the Imperial Government was paying for American meat. The reports of,tho conference would liavo been of great interest and importance to tho public, and he could not understand why they were not permitted to bo published.

Nobody should run away ivitli an impression that the difficulties regarding meat and shipping could be put riffht in n hurry, continued Sir Joseph Ward. When the present contract ivitli the Imperial. Government expired, the stores would be half full of meat. If the producers and exporters could get freedom then, with enough ships to carry on their own business under competitive conditions, they would bo fur better off than thoy could be under Government restrictions. _ They would bo able to' get better prices than they would got under the commandeer system. But thero would bo a troublo to bo faced. When the Imperial contract ended, U>e stores would contain some 4,(100,000 carcasses of meat belonging to the British Government, and 'it was not likely that the British Government would allow meat that had come fresh into tho stores to receive shipping spare ahead of tho meat that had accumulated. Yot if storago spaco and (shipping wero not available for the stock that would along in tho ordinary courso in tho following season, there would bo a fall in tho values of sheep throughout tho country, and this fall would interfaro with industry and finance in every direction. Tho matter was of importance to everybody in tho Dominion. He would not be in tho least surprised if in the meantime tho British Government had to make another and a higher offer for New Zealand meat in order to bridge over the period before normal conditions oould bo restored.

CRUX OF THE PROBLEM. Tho primary causo'of tho troublo was shortage of shipping. New Zealand, in l!)li luul 09 refrigerated steamers, with a rapacity of 8,800,000 carcasses. The nuuiljor of refrigerated ships available for the trade of tho Dominion in June, 1018, was 5!!, with a capacity of 1,500,000 carcasses. Hi other words the Dominion, was 'short alwut 17 steamers, representing a capacity of li,11(H),000 carcasses. "That is what is tho matter," said Sir Joseph Ward. "Wo need not make any mistake about it. Wo are not going to bo right until we liavo enough steamers as we had in tho pre-war time. Personally, I do not. believe that tho value of meat is going to fall. Ido not believo that tho price can fall outside this country, although wo may get blocked by lack bf shipping and hifi'e our troubles here. The world's sup. plies of meat are short. 1 believo that tho Americans ore going to have a big fall in their meat prices, because they havo been getting extraordinary price.! from the British Government, throughout tho war. .Meat has been so dea.r in tho United States that unquestionaUy tho people are not now purchasing meat, on \tho old scale. The holders cannot get rid of their meat except by a great reduction in prices."

I The Empire needed more refrigerated steamers, but tho extraordinarily high I cost of construction at the present time was an obstacle in the way. Sir Joseph' Ward mentioned tho case of a steamer laid down shortly before the war. The vessel was to havo cost ,£IIO,OOO, with a capacity of 150,000 carcasses. Construction was suspended during the war. The ship had sineo been completed and ba» cost £450,000, an excess of ,£310,000 over the pre-war price. A. certain ship that had been built for the Pacific tr= • could not be replaced under ,£1,500,000, and so replacement was to bo deterred. No company could undertake to pay such prices for refrigerated steamers, which would .have to be run at a loss within a few years. Ho believed it would, be a very good thing for a committee of New Zealand producers to visit tho United Kingdom and investigate for themselves everything connected with the meat trade. The fundamental troublo at present was that thero had been a great war, which has lasted a very long tiiuu. Tho farmers admittedly had not received full market value for their meat during the war. But unless the meat had been bought for the British Government, and unless the British Government had commandeered all the available ships, it was very doubtful if the armies could have been fed and tho war won. ' Britain lost' 4000 steamers during the 'war, and now tho United States had taken .all the German ships interned in American ports. Ho thought that was a very regrettable thing. If anybody was entitled to receive a portion of those steamers it was tho British Government, which had 'enabled fclie liberties of America to bo preserved, although the Americans themselves did come in and do fine work towards the end of tho struggle. The American* were using in competition with British shipping the whole of the German steamers driven into American i ports by tho British Navy. j

FREE MARKETS. Sir Joseph Ward added that bethought Xew Zealand should coiitinuo to make lvjii-i'si'iiiiiuiins la the Imporii'.l Government and try to set the works free in lime tor nest season. lie believed ill freedom as between tho producer and tho nutrkeU. It circumstances required it, lie believed tho British Ciuvernmont Mould be bound to make a fair oiler for New Zealand's meat for the period until flu: skins could In: cleared and normal conditions restored. The refrigerated ships rc(|iiiied by lilio Dominion were not nt present nflont. Ships would have to be built, anil until they were, built the present troubles would not end. 110 did not believe that tho United King-

dom would ever produce .enough meat to interfere with New Zealand's exports. But Britain was not going to be tho sole market for the Dominion's mutton and lamb. The producers would be entitled to gel the best prices tliev could, with preference to tho Mother Country, and there would ba competition from many meat importing countries to keep up values. The financial position made it certain that New Zealand would have to depend to a greater extent than ever 011 its exports to keep its finances strong. Mr. E. Newman asked how long the British Government's control of shipping was likelv to Inst. Sir Joseph Word said shipping control was being dono away with already. His own opinion was that as soon as the repatriation of troops had been completed tho Government would release all tho ships used for transport purposes. They included refrigerated ships, and would improve the position all round. Some_of the refrigerated steamers had carried American troops. Nobody could say "No" to that. He had made strong representations to- the Imperial authorities that now the war was over New Zealand should have the use of some Argen- . tino 6teamers. Mr. Massey: They have dono that. Sir Joseph Ward:' I am very glad that we have got some of them. I think the position will get better. I think that is certain. Mr. Mnrshall: Are you prepared to advocate that our meat shall be sold independent of . the American meat? _ , Sir Joseph Ward: To advocate it is one thing, and to get it is another. I do not bolieve that when the war contracts are completed there is going to be any contract between the British Government nnd the American packers. I fully agreo that our meat should lie kept separate. Whether we could get it dono I cannot say. The committee could get information on matters of that kind. Mr. Marshall: It has to bo douo without loss of time. Mr. Massey; It ought to bo dono right away. Replying to another question, Sir Joseph AVard said 110 did not thjnk any of New Zealand's insulated shfps wero being employed to cany frozen meat from America to Britain, Tho real trouble was that necessary ships had gone. The Germans had destroyed them and they could not bo replaced at present prices. "OPTIMISTIC" FIGURES. Mr. Poison said lie thought the ostimate that only 4,000,000 carcasses would bo left in store at the end of December was optimistic. Mr. Massey: They are not my figures. They aro official figures. . r Mr. Poison: They aro optimistic. Tho official figures have always been optimistic, Mr, Massey: The position is improving. Mr. Poison said there would he 11,000,000 carcasses to bo lifted 'between the end of Decembor and the end of June next. That was manifestly impossible. Mr. Massey said 110 thought the meat taken into store during the first six months of next year would amount to about 5,000,000 carcasses, making 9,000,000 in all. He realised tho difficulty of the position. A very largo quantity of Imperial meat would remain in store at thu.end of the contract, and some, aiv rangement would have to bo mado for the new season's meat to have an outlet while the old meat was being lifted. He did not think there would bo any difficulty in making such an arrangement. He agreed with Sir Joseph Ward in regretting that tho Imperial Government had not allowed the publication of the reports of the Imperial Conference. Tho Hon. AV. ]D. S. Mac Donald sard that full inquiry had been made by his officers into the allegation that Australia was being better treated than New Zenland. Australia had "0 advantage worth mentioning, except 011 account of the preference given to beef over mutton and lamb. The Imperial Government wanted beef first all tho lime. The Australians had been paid f.0.b., whereas New Zealand producers got advances on meat in store. Tho suggestion to send a committee of fanners to Britain was a good one. He thought tho committee should go also to the United States. It could gather information that would be of great value to the farmers. Mr. Newman thanked the Ministers on behalf of tho deputation. , V