MINERS' DISPUTE

Dominion, Volume 12, Issue 265, 5 August 1919, Page 8

MINERS' DISPUTE

STILL NO CONCLUSION

DISPUTATIONS ON "FIGURES"

ATTACK ON BOARD OF TRADE

SUGGESTIONS FOR INDEPENDENT INQUIRY

.. The conference between tho representatives.of tho Coal Miners' Federation and the Coal .Mine Owners' Association was continued yesterday, and it will be resumed.. to-day. The adjournment until yesterday was agreed upon for the purpose* of allowing the federation representatives to produco figures in refutation of figures produced by the coal owners. When tho conference met the federation representatives said that they 1 could not get the figures because the report of the Board of Trade did not afford them tho information they required. There was talk on both sides ot independent inquiry as to the accuracy of figures produced.

The Five Points Again. _ Mr._Roberts: I suppose tho other eido is •waiting for a statement this morning from the miners' representatives. Personally I want to say that when tho conference adjourned on Saturday I wanted to* know whether, if wo produced figures to the conference, the conference could then go on to discuss the abolition of- the, coutraot system. Mr. Alison's reply was "No." Now we are in this position: If the conference is not prepared to discuss the question I would ask whether it is worth while to waste time fioing into figures. If you aro prepared to discuss' them, let us know. I think it is only; fair, seeing .that we have been considering this question since Saturday, that we should have an understanding. If we aro to go into a disoussion' such as we have had for the past Wo dajs, I don't think it will'help us much. I should liko to know if the other side will discuss the position. If your reply is favourable, then I think we can proceed with the conference to the best interests of all concerned.

Mr.. Alison: Mr. Roberts raises the question of the five points. When we adjourned on Saturday it had been made known when the coal owners submitted their statement that they had definitely decided that they could not consider the unreasonable, the extortionate, and impossible demands madg by the federation whioh were containedMn the five points enumerated. The words were perfectly olear. They were repeated again on Saturday before the adjournment. Mr. Roberts claimed that injustice would ,be imposed on the federation if they were not allowed to reply to the figures presented by the coal owners, and he claimed that we were in honour bound to grant tho federation representatives aai opportunity to submit this morning their figures ill contradiction of those submitted by the coal owners. We meet this morning, and then Mr. Roberta asks the coal owners to 6ay whether they are prepared to consider the five demands which the ooal owners have plainly told the federation they cannot consider. And then Mir. Roberts goes' oh to sav "It is no use our submitting figures unaer these circumstances." Why; is the federation •not submitting figures? It is because they cannot repudiate, they cannot sot aside, the figures presented by the coal owners. They are Indisputable; they are •absolutely correct; and it is because the federation is in that position that it , does , not submit its figures to-day. That is a matter in the handsof tho federation. ..We have given them tho oppor•tunity Vhioh Mr. Roberts arid other mem- ■ bera-of the. federation claimed that wo were in honour bound to give. We felt that they weie entitled' to have this opportunity. Tho opportunity is given, and,.this..morning the reply from the federation "is, "We don't propose to su'd"mit aity figures in reply unless the five demands are to be considered, and we know whether you will agree, to that, the coal owners having definitely and distinotlv informed you on the first ■ and ■ seoond days of the conference that they were not prepared to consider them.

The Basis for Figures. Mr. lloberts: Mi - . Alison has made a most extraordinary speech. I never said . we were not prepared to present figures, ■ or to refute your statements. Mr. Alison: Then I cannot believe my " ears. / Mr. Eoberts: I told you it seemed' to us useless to do it unless you wero prepared to» discuss them. Wo are prepared ; toi present figures. It took us but very Jittle time to discover the trick by which ■ r ? u P rcpared yo«r figures. That is one ,ot the good things that cams of your Advice to us to make use of the Board of Irade report figures. Wo happened to Jilt upon tho trick that you had followed. - nl 'A I V o ® rr ' Te d at the same figures. ■ JUrAKpberts went on to refer to the use he had made of tho tables in tho report, He said (hat the coal owners •-•jad arrived at their figures by takin< .... the ~ mine . showing hignest production cost,-and the mine showiug lowest production cost. It was. however, a wellknown fact that the colliery or pit with a ingh cost of production Wl a loir output, and that from tho mine where the procuction cost was low tno output would be'large if possible.. The table '] from- which the figures had reen taken was .-valueless; because tha table did not ~give,.the .name of the mine; every mino v-TO?. marked A, B, C, ,and m on. The federation > could not make use of the ..figures, for the purpose of arriving at cfie average cost of production because it was not possible for them to identify these, mines. It was, therefore iinpos. eiblo to compare the figures with their own statistics. In tho tables in which there was information that mou!<[ not bo of value to them, the iiftmes of tile mines ■were given, but 111 all tins tables giving information which they wanted, there was an alphabetical .code, merely to distinguish the mines.

.•-•He-w'ent on to speak of the proposal for; the abolition of tho contact system. Mr. Alison, ho said, had said that a miner could earn from 25s- to 355. a day in the mines. The average should bo then about 30s. For the purposes •of this comparison it did not matter what the output per minor actually was. Let it be assumed for convenience that the output was' 100 tons per miner. A pair of minors would produco 200 tons. According to Mr. Alison's figures tho output would drop 30 per cent, or 30 tons per man by tho abolition of tho tontract system. This would bring tho output down to 1-JjO tons for tho two mon. The cost of the 110 tons in wages would bo Al a day. But supposing a third man cams in ho would produco another TO tons of coal, so that instead of a total increase in production there would bo an increase of 10 tens, 210 tons as against 200 tons, and the labour cost would bo tho same, ,£3 in each case. Mr. Alison had stated that thuro were places in the mines for men to go into, and it was common knowledge that the shortage of coal at present was duo to lack of labour."'-.The federation wanted conditions in the mines to ijjduce labour to go fihero. Here was a scheme by which more coal oould' ho produced. Ho wanted the answer of the ooal owners to this suggestion. Ho had shown that tho production of coal would not produce any more from a wagc3 point of view.

Mr. Alison: You are faring to show it.

Mr. Roberts: "I am showing it, absolutely showing it." He declared that ho had disposed of all tho talk there bad been about the terrible decrease in production. and the terrible increase in cost.

He went on to talk of the reduction of hours proposals. Tho Board of Trado report showed that tho avorago working week of tlic miner was four shifts, or 32 hours por week. Under tho new proposals the working week would be 35 hours per week. And at present tl-ings v.-era abnormal in the mines. But for tho abnormal state of things there would be Biore stoppages 011 account of transport and such difficulties. Tor a number of years past the miners had not actually worked for so long per week as they wero asking: for in this pioposed agreement.

Not Enough Time, 1 Mr. Roberts said lie had gone very care, fullv into the report of tho Board of Trade, and nowhere in it could he find a .basis from which to start. Where the information might be valuable for this purpose it was hidden under the alpha-

botical code. Whero tho information was not valuable the name of tho mine was given. The minore' representatives did not say that this Lad boon done intentionally by tho Board of Trade. Tho coal owners had obtained their material before tho conforenco, and ho understood it had taken them about four weeks to get it. On tho other hand they were now asking tho federation, which was not in the possession of information whicb the owners had at their fingers' ends, to tackle the question in tho matter of 2'J. hours.

Cries of "No" from the coal mino owners. The chairman said that tho proposal had been made by hiiu, and he had not proponed any limit of time. . What he had suggested to tlio conference was that figures should bo produced from lioth sides, and that these figures should be referred to an expert appointed by tho Government with assessors from eacli side. He had suggested an adjournment for two or three weeks. Mr. Roberts said that Sir George Clifford's statement of what had occurred •previously was quite correct, but lie had been replying to the statement of Mr. Alison that morning, tho statement that '•ho federation was not supplying figures 'because it could not refute the figures supplied by tho mine owners. Mr. Alison: That is because, you are not supplying figures. Mr. Roberts and it had taken the experts of the owners three or four weeks to collect the data required for the figures, and Mr. Alison expected the federation to bring the figures in a night, with no data at nil except what was in the report ot the Board of Trade, and all of that in code. Until the federation had full figures of the pay-sheets from every mint}, the production .of each mine, it could not go into tho figures satisfactorily to the public of New Zealand. So long as part of tho business was kept hidden the federation could not be held to be to bliame. What they had found out after some work was how Mr. Alison had arrived at his marvellous figures. The figures that had been quoted by Mr. Alison would not bear anajiysis, and of this lie was more convinced than before, because he had gone into the thing carefully in the,mining returns for the past ten years. He was absolutely convinced that if the whole of the mine owners' 'books wero' placed before competent auditors the federation figures wouf.d prove to be absolutely correct. Their statement; could riot be refuted. But while tlig information in tho report of the Board of Trade was hidden under the code, they could not accept any statement based on it, because they had 1 no means of comparing the figures with their own data. On the other hand the federation challenged Mr. Alison on the statement that any miner could earn- from 2os. to 355. a day, and that the reduction of coal output by tie adoption of the contract system would be 30 per cent. That was a statement on which ' they could baso figures. One of the best auditors in New Zealand had told them that he could do nothing with the figures in the leport of ,fche Board of Trade unless he had •more particulars about the different mines covered by the figures in the tables. Until the federation knew what mines were meant by the designation A or B they oould do nothing. A proper examination of the figures could not be done by the conference. It would be the work of a yeair. for a. competent man. Mr. Alison's Retort. Mr. Alison: Wo heard & long harangue from Mr. Roberts — Mr. Egberts at once rose to a point of order. He asked that Mr. Alison should not be allowed to characterise his statement as a harangue. He took it that if such words were to be used it was evidence that the owners were looking for trouble.

The chairman said that he would pull up any man of either side who used any improper words. Mr. Alison: There is hardly an occasion on which I rise to make a point on any question, but Mr. Huberts rises in an impulsivo, quick manner almost as if he had an electric battery under him.' I would ask Mr. Roberts to allow mo to reply to him without interruption, as I don't interrupt him. Mr. Roberts has spoken in a way that is'inexplicable. In the first placo lie said that the mine owners required a month to consider the demands, r that they required weeks in which to determine what the extra, cost would be by reason of tho demands made by the federation, and he 6aid that it was quite'impossible'for the federation in the short time at disposal to bo ablo to submit correct figures because thoy had not first of all the information that would enable them to do so; and, secondly, because they had not time. That is what Mr. Boberts says, but at the same time as ho says that-he asperses the figures submitted by the coal owners,.although, as he says 'himself, he had not the time to go into them, and he had not the 'information to enablo him to do so. He says the figures are incorrect. What figures has he put before ua to-day? He says the coal owners made up their figures on table 25 of the Board of Trade report. Then if they did, why did not you make up youre from tho same figures? Mr. Arbuckle: Because we say they are incorrect from the point of view of tho real cost of production of coal, in so far as "A"' mine may have produced 5000 tons, and "B" mine might have produced 400 tons. We can't get the real cost of production from the table until we know the mines to which the figures refer. Mr. Alison: Tho representatives■ of the federation will not accept any facts wluch don't suit them. The Board of Trade report is one in which it would be impossible to find inaccuracies. Mr. Arbuckle: They might not be inaccuracies in figures, 'but it is impossible to accept them as a basis on which wo could produce figures. It is impossible for us to go over them and fetch in other figures .different from what you do. . . .

Sir George Clifford: This is rather more than «n interruption. Mr. Alison: It is ;ui interruption. It must hurt. We are placed, in this position this morning: that Mr. liobcrts, on behalf of the federation, has made certain statements which are not very clear, and they amount in the main to this: We dispute tho figures of the coat owners, we dispute the basis on which they were made, and we have not had sufficient timo to go into thein to enable us to bo able to refute them. I would suggest, the federation, having submitted these figures, that the conference adjourn until, say, 2.30, to enablo the mine owners to consider the statements made to them, and the reply they may make to the federation. I would move that we adjourn until 2.30.

The Origin of tho Figures. Mr. O'Brien said that first they ought to laok.e the situation as it was. A heap of figures had been given out to tho public, and it was necessary to find out whence thoso figures had come. Ho declared that tho coal owners had been guilty of simplo tricks in juggliftg with ligitres. But upon what basis <iid tho jjoard of Trade figures rest in the first 1 placo? Even tho Board of Trado had stated in the report that there wero defects in tho data supplied. Ho himself woruld be in a position to provo tlieso inaccuracies but for the alphabetical ©ode under which the information was concealed. At a similar conference with tho inino owners last year the oiler had been mado that tliero should bo an inquiry into the industry by a body of representatives of the miners, the mjne owners, and the'public, 'but the mino owners would not hear of the proposal. Instead of that the Board of Trado had been put cm to tho job, and they had proceeded by methods which from tho point of view of justice cou/d not stand for a minuto. • "Poor Miners," Ho wished also to refer to another statement by Mr. Alison. It was his statement that it was a very poor miner /who could not earn 255. a day in tho Huntly mine. If that were so, then Huntly was full of poor miners. If that wero so the statement of Mr. Alison was no compliment to the mine managers at the mine, who had the right to choose the men to work the mints. A voice: Not a bit of. it. Mr. O'Brien said it was an insult to tho men iu Huntly to say that I hey were poor men. lie said emphatically that: they were not, and this he knew from experiejic'o and observation. They were not lioor men physically, and they were not poor miners. Ho could not tolerate such an insult to them for a moment. Ho quoted from the report a passage in which some high praise was given to men in the occupation of mining, and a tribute was paid to tlioir bravery and idndliness of heart. (And when he read the statement it was greeted with a fairly general chorus of "Hear, hear,'

from the minis owners' sido of the table.) Mr. O'lirieu said that it was infamous that such menyshould bo slandered. lie wont on to deal with mattor pertaining to tho proposals' of the federation. Mr. Alison, lie said, had in his statement inferred that tho men were not doing as much as tlioy could, that they wero loafing. The Board of Trade on this point had said:

Any considerable improvement in annual output per man must be looked for as the result of better training of the worker, better organisation of labour within and without the mines, and a mo t re extensive application of capital in the shape of machinery, etc., rather than from an extension of the number of shifts

worked per year by the miner. Mr. O'Brien said that this statement was correct, but the figures of the Board of Trade were challenged because of the basis on which they were mado. The report showed that the miners were working on the average four days a week. The'federation proposed now a working week of five-days. A voice: Less holidays.

A "Guarantee." Mr. O'Brien said that under this ar- j rangement the output would not be reduced. After all their conferences with tho coal owners tho position of the country in regard to coal supply was worse than it had ever been, and the owners had had "their own road" for tho past three or four years. "We give a guarantee," he said, "that wo will supply plenty of coal. We hold that the cost will not bo increased. On this set of figures we prove that by working five days a week there will bo moro qoal produced. Some reference lias been made to these disputes committees. We want you to take into consideration that figures wero published to show the amount of coal lost to tho country as a result of strikes. lou will get rid of 'that trouble if the demands put forward to-day are correct. &. voice:.'No fear. Mr. O'Brien said that the saving of coal under this head would run "into some millions of tons. Referi-nce had been mado to disputes committees, and the fact that they did not succeed in stopping strikes. Here was the biggest disputes committee possible to assemble. The representatives ot the miners were there to discuss these dii&culties, and some attempts had "been made to smash the' conference before it began to do business. This was an example of what went on at other disputes committees when they were called together. Tho owners' representatives refused !o discuss grievances. Tho federation delegates on this occasion could not get down to a discussion of the facts, becaase the owners refused to discuss tlieni, and tho result was that they could not got further towards a settlement of the dispute. Not a woid had been heard from ."ny of the mine managers The minore had nothing to hide and nothing to l't-ar, but they wanted to finish the business and go back home. The, owners had had tho situation in their own haiiJs for four yoars, and they had shown t'iiur inability to give the public a plentiful supply of' coal. The miners' had come with a set of demands which, they felt sure, would have the Jesuit of increasing the supply of coal,, and cheaper coal than was now on the market. If the demands were granted tho miners would endeavour to do it. If the owners refused to grant the demands, then they must take the responsibility from ; the shoulders of the minere' representatives. "Deliberately Incorrect." Mr. Alison: Mr. O'Brien is secretary of the Huntly Miners' Union, and therefore ho is fully informed as to the position of the company. He lias mado a statement to-day that ho knows to be contrary to faot, a statement _ that should never have been made. It is a most regrettable thing that representatives 01 the federation should oonio before t.ie conference and the publio of New Zealand and make statements which are deliberately incorrect. Mr. O'Brien: Tell me one ot those statements. There was a demand from the representatives of tho miners that Mr. Alison should be called to ordor for his statement that Mr. O'Brien had mado statements kniwing them to be incorrect.' Tho chairman said that tho statement of Mr. Alison nught bo 'better put "a statement which 1 think is deM>erate.y incorrect." . Mr. Alison: No, statements which I know are deliberately incorrect. The chairman: I don't think that.you Will pruduce any'good result. Ho advised Mr. Alison not to go on with this argument. ill-, Alison: I accept the decision of the O'Rourke: Withdraw tho remark. Mr. Alison: No, I have nothing to withdraw. Mr. Arbucklo: It is up to you to withdraw tho remark. He, raised another point of order calling for the withdrawal l»l" the remark. The. chairman: I have ruled.

Mr. Alison: I have never maae any statement reflecting oil any miner lii New Zealand. I liavo reflected on no miner. ■Mr. Arbuckle: You have reflected on every miner in Now Zealand by stating that if the day watjo system is brought into vogue the men will not work. Mr. Alison: You are raising another point altogether. Mr. O'Brien: I quoted your statement that the man in the Huntly mine who does not earn 355. a day is a poor miner. Good Workmen. Mr. Alison: Is that a reflection on the minor? As far a 6 the miners of Huntly aro concerned they are a very fine body , of men. They are working well «nd turning out a fine output of coal. Mr. O'Brien: That is one way of apologising. Mr. Alison: It is not a question of apologising. I have nothing to apologise for. I have never said a word reflecting on the miners of New Zealand. They have been working in a highly satisfactory manner. The fault is that there are continual stoppages of work, and the men are not continuing at their work as they should. Tho report of the Board of Trade says that they worked on aji averago four days a week. There is no reason why they should not work full time.

Mr. Ai'Hic'rle : If you were one of them you would know. .' Mr. Alison: Mr. O'Brien knows that tho mines are open every day for every miner at Huntly, and that there is room for at least a hundred additional minors if they could 1)6 found. lam not going to bo misrepresented by Mr. O'Brien or any representative of the federation, and this attempt to misrepresent mo is being made to shoiv tho miners of Now Zealand that lliey have been traduced and spokc:i nf at this conference in this disparaging manner.

Mr..O'Brien: I want: to challengo tlio statement that there is room for more minors.

Mr. Alison: I say till at reference to the verbatim report will not show one word expressed by me which reflects on the Kuntly miners, or on any miner i:i New Zealand. If thcro is any reflection to be made it is not on the men, but on the heads of the organisation. ' Mr. Arbuckle: More dirt, Mr. Chairman. Another Refutation, Mr.- Alison: Mr. O'Brien referred to the disputes committees. He said: "Here is a disputes committee, and it is on title same as when Hie miners go before loeul disputes committees, and meet tho mine managers with grievances. The mine iiinmigcrs meet them, and say: 'We are not prepared to lision to your grievances.'' " Now, if tliero is any member of tho federation who should have held Ms tongue on such a question that man is Mr. O'Brien, secretary of the Huntly Miners' Union. I challenge him to deny this—that tliero has never been a gt'ievr.nce submitted to the local manager or to tho general manager on which the union iliave boon unable to gel. a satisfactory decision, and on which there has been ail appeal to tho directors. I challenge Mr. O'Brien to snv thai' the directors have over refused to receive u deputation, or that tho directors have ever failed to settle Uip matter in a way which lias Ijenn declared to lie satisfactory by Mr. O'Brien and members of tho 1111101, "Yet lie makes statements which reflect on the mine managers. It is unjustifiable and wrong. Tliero is very little use dim- talking .across the table in this way. The matter wo have to go into to-ilny is that of the figures presented to us by (ho fedoration. To enable us to do so it is necessary that we should liavo somo time, Then we will meet you and roply to your figures and to reply gonoraHy. I suggest and I would ask that this matter of the adjournment to now further considered, that the adjournment tako place, and that wo ncet

at 2.30 or 3 o'clock to go into this mattor of the figures. Mr. O'Brien suid ho wanted to tnako one point with regard to the statements of Mr. Alison. With regard to disputes committees tliero had never been occasion to sot up ono at Huntly. He had referred to tho Dominion generally. lie had not been speaking of local affairs at Huntly. "I don't mind," lie said, "Air. Alison's personal remarks as to myself. I look upon it as an honour.'' Board of Trade Impugned. Mr. Arbuckle: Mr. Alison has practically inferred that it is impossible ior tho Miners' Federation to confute these figures. What I want to say is that it is not impossible to confuto these figures, It is quito simple, and we are prepared to take tlio figures of the State mine given in the report arid prove conclusively that Mr. Alison's figures aro wrong, "jf Mr. Alison is prepared to submit names of tlio mines to which the Board of 'iiade figures apply, or to give us the output of every mine, with the cost of production, wo are prepared to "accept the Board of Trade figures as a basis on which lo go. Again, further, we say that the I'oard of Trade report as it is to-day is one of the most, brilliant efforts ever placed boforo tho community of New Zealand to hide tho real position of the coal mines of New Zealand to-day. ]f they had been engaged—l mako vhe statement definitely—to conceal the real position of tlio coal mine owners to-day, tliey could not have made a hotter attempt. Take a great number of their table.?, and ;/ou find that where they will use three lumss to-day as a basis,'in tho very next statement they will use sixteen mines. We don't know exactly, we have no chance of knowing anything, except from this one mino, the State mine, which ihey can't hide from us because we can get it from tho balance-sheets lo substantiate what I say. We find to-day that the State niine, which gives a higher rale of pay than any other mine in New Zealand, which gives the very best conditions in Now Zealand, far far superior to any other mine, where the rien have the privilege of securing themselves more safely—l specify timber and pillars, for no other mine is paying the same for pillar work. These are two items that mean somothing very great. What I want to say is this, that in the face of these conditions granted by tlio State to the workmen wo find in tho State mine , that tho cost of production lias been reduced 3-! per cont. notwithstanding the increase granted to the men. Mr. Brown: They are doing no development work.

A Royal Commission?

Mr. Arbuckle: "It has been stated by Mr. Alison that the Board of Trade went fully into the books of the coal mine owners, took their books, and took out of them the figures. That lamin a position to say is not correct. The board of Trade accepted figures from the coal owners, with a sworn statement') I admit. as to their correctness, in a great number of, cases." He went on to say that he knew that this statement was correct. because l'e knew of one instance in particular, the case of the State mine. "I sav this on behalf of the federation," ho said: "We shall not accept any reportas to tho correctness of the figures, or any other figures until wo have the same opportunity, the same right of a Royal Commission; as has just been granted to the miners'of the Old Country. When wo get the same concessions as they have got, until wa get the same. Commission as they have got, with'tho right of our representatives on tho Commission to know the true condition of things as their are. we cannot accept, and will not accept, this report, or any other report unless we are a party to that report. That is the position wo take up, and I thijik vou will admit it is a right position from our sido of the table." He said that in getting out the cost of production of some of tho mines charges bad been included which should not have been inciuded in some cases. At Huntly expensive works had to be undertaken to prevent the flooding of the mine, and at tho Liverpool mine thc-vo had been a great slip. It appeared to him that if tho State mine could make a handsome nrofit, treating the men better thaii the owners of the private mines, the mines in tho hands of the private owners ought tn be (making a handsomo profit too. Tliero was something wrong with tho figures, but they couid not yet find out what it was. Until sucl* time as they could get a Commission like that set up in the Old Country they were not prepared to accept either figures or statements from the other sido.

Cost of Management. Mr. Arbuckle quoted from the report of the Board of Trade:'

,Tho average mining cost per ton increased in every case except in tho case of tho Point Elizabeth Stato mine, where the cost fell 20 per

cent. — Mr. Arbuckle was about to stop, but several mine managers called upon him to read on. Ho read on:

due to the fact that there was no development work to undertake, and the miners were mainly on pillar work and with less travelling distances, as tho mino was Hearing exhaustion. Mr. Arbuckle went on to talk of management of mines, and mado some references to tho Paparoa mine, which, he said, was overstaffed on the managerial side. When such a small production in Miat; mino could support such a large management cost, be contended that there must be something wrong if all tho other mines were not making large profits. Until such time as a Commission was set up to show tho miners, through their representatives on tho Com mission, what the position was, the mincrs could not and would not accept figures from the Board of Trade and tho coal owners.

•In Defence of Management. Mr. Alison rose to traverse certain remarks of Mr. Arbuckle, in which Mr. Arbuckle had seemod to infer that thero was incapacity in management of some mines.

Air. Arbticklo denied having done so. Mr. Alison: Whom do you blame, then ? Mr: Arbuckle: I blame you, for one.

Mr. Alison: Then I want Mr. Arbucklo to show where any action of mino has been against the intorests of the miner, or the interests of the shareholders, or the interests of the people ot Nw Zealand. Tho coal owners of New Zealand, of whom I am president, made a resolution early in tho war that under war conditions every effort _ should i>e mado by every coal company in New Zealand to keep down the price of coal, ami we did so. Mr. Arbuekle: I don't agree with that. Mr. Alison: You never agree with anything that is right. You dispute everybody and every figure. Mr; Arbuekle omlKivoura to throw tho blame now not on the mine managers, but on the representatives of tho shareholders, tho directors, as being an incompetent set of men who' don't understand business, a set of men unfit to hold their positions. Jlr. Arbuekle protested that this was misrepresentation. Mr. Weston here broke into tho talk. "I think," ho said, "that this discussion shows quite clearly that the chairman's suggestion affords tho only way-by which we are likely to get out of tlie position wo are in liow—tluit is, that wo should havo an independent man to decide \vln»t are the tacts. Tho chairman appealed to Mr. Alison and Mr. Arbuekle to continue their debate with less appearance of heal. Mr. Alison: '"Wo can't have reflections east upon the mino management in a wholesttlo manner without refuting thorn.Tho mines of Now Zealand are managed in' a competent and efficient manner. The 'business in connection with the niines is conducted in a businesslike and capable "manner, and there is no cause for reflection of any kind either upon the directors of the companies or tho mino managers, or the general managers. Tr. is regrettable that there should be these continual references to incapacity." Mr. Alison said that the mino owners were just as much in the dark as tho members of the federation regarding tho key to the alphabetical code in tho report of the Beard of Trade. The mine owners did not know to what mines the figures referred. It was nut. the coal owners' report. All they had to do was to give to the board the fullest information. Tho Samo With a "Difference." "Mr. Arbuekle," lis went on, "iias east a very serious reflection on the Hoard of Trade. Ho says that tho report is tho most brilliant endeavour to conceal the position of the coal niines of New Zealand which could havo been made, and had the Board of Trade been paid to conceal tho information they could not havo dono it better,"

Mr. Roberts rose to a point of order, 110 said that Jlr, Arbucklo had fciiiil tHa.t if the board had been "omploycd" hiid not "paid" to do it. This was not nearly the sanw thing. Payment suggested briber} and criminal intention. ill'. Alison: 1 took it down as "paid." Anyhow, wo'll Bay thai "ewploj'ed" is rigiit. Air. Weston: "Employed" is pretty bad. Mr. '.Roberts: Thore is a difference.

Mr, Alison: There is a difference, but it is op Mr. Roberts's part, and not on Mr. Arbwkle's. The Board of Trade has been assailed by tho federation over since this conference opened, not on one occasion but on ovory occasion on which it lias beon referred to there has been a reflection on the Hoard of Trade. If the Hoard of Trade members are true to themselves they will answer the imputations and charges made against them. Mr. O'Rourke: We never challem;ed tho Board of Trade figures. We said wo didn't know. AVe don't know the basis on which the figures were compiled, and until wo know we don't accept them. Mr. Alison referred to Mr. Arbuckle's question about tho proljt made by the State mine, and tho reason why other companies could not do so well. Mr. Alison said that the State mine had ( not to pay any local taxation, any State taxation, any royalties, and cfher charges. It wns not surprising that the State mine made a better showing than some other mines, but yet it returned no dividend to the State.

The Working Tinie of Miners. Mr. Wight said that the statement had been made that at present the miners worked four day 6 a week, and that they proposed under the new arrangement to work five days a week. This might lead to misconception. The holidays would have to be deducted, and lliis would reduce the working week to 4| days a week. It was admitted by (he federation that the mines were closed at different times owing to transport difficulties. These difficulties would occur just cs much under the five day week arrangement as at present. Mr. O'Brien had said that if the concessions were given the mineis would guarantee a full output of coal. But it had been admitted by tho federation that they had no control over the rank and file. Without this control how could the federation guarantee tho output of coal?

The Only Solution. Mr. Weston again pressed the question of adjournment. "I do so," lie said, "because I think this discussion is not petting ns further forward. From the fact that you have found difficulty in checking our figures, and in bringing forward counter-figures, 1 do think the suggestion made bv the chairman fa the only suggestion which will help, and I hope both sides will see their way to agree to it. Discussion is no good unless you have got facts on which you are going to earn- on discussion. It will be impossible to get much further because from the first we cannot have any common ground of agreement on which to The conference adjourned first of all until tli© afternoon, but it (lid not futually meet. It. had been decided in the meantime that it would be better to I.ostpone the meeting until, the next ua.v, ar.d the adjournment is until this morning at 11 o'clock.