COAL MINES CONFERENCE

Dominion, Volume 12, Issue 264, 4 August 1919, Page 2

COAL MINES CONFERENCE

AT A DEAD END

SUGGESTIONS OF STRIKES

OWNERS' FIRM ATTITUDE CONTRACT SYSTEM AND COST OF COAL The conference between the renrcsentah/u °r. t ' le Coal Jli " ers ' Federation and of the Coal Mine Owners' Association was continued on Saturday morning, and adjourned until this morning. As will appear from tho following account of tho proceedings little advance was mado'towards a conclusion of the business. Sir George Clifford presided.

Owners' Last Word. . Tho Hon. .E. W. Alison, .presidont of the Coal Mine Owners' Association, made the following statement:— "We have considered with the utmost caro the demands of the Miners' Federation and also the serious, even solemn warning given lis yesterday bv the Minister of Mines. Wo nro convinced that tho demands are impossible, to be grantod under the present conditions of the Dominion in regard to industrial, transport, and household coal consumption. Our estimates of the additional cost to tho consumer are unshaken and have further confirmation in thoso of tho experts .attached to the Ministry of ■Mines. No figures have been adduced to • rebut these calculations. The tounago system, is one which prevails throughout the world, and still prevails in England. It is. recognised that the piecework system -is oho- whicli is absolutory essential to the coal-mining in.iiustry. Its abolition must result in a great reduction of output, thus largely increasing tho cost of coal to the community, and substantially diminishing tho supplies which are so necessary at the present time. Instead of facts we have heard much declamation as to the hard lot of the individual miner, and tho wearing out of his physiquo under tho strain, but the miner is not exempt from tho lot of man. In every industry and even among tho idlest of us uiidalo ago brings its proportion of physical failures. Statistics do not show that that, proportion. is unduly high in tho mining industry. . Wo are prepared,-how-ever, to confer with the Government and. the federation as to any improvements in tho working and home life of tho miner, and as to provision for his i:ecreptitudo from a'jo or accident. Wo cannot, however,' agree to impose uijoj , tho community, tho excessive burden entailed - by tho present proposals gf tho federation.

Submit Figures for any Examination. "Wo shall, however, bo glad to submit our calculation's as to increased-cost ii» bo investigated by tho Hoard of Trade or any experts to be appointed by the Government in order to .satisfy {ho federation and the general public*as their authenticity. We must therefore adhere to our decision that wo cannot even discuss tho principal demands as enuiuera.led yesterday at this crisis of our national life. Wo trust that the federation will ho sufficiently patriotic to adviso tho unions to continue the present asreonient-at any rate itntil normal conditions return. The Hon. tho Minister of Mines, while rejecting-on behalf of tho Stato. mines the abolition of contract and tho reduction of hoars as impracticable in viow of the resulting increase in tho cost of cool, had suggested tho institution of a board of control tor tlio State mines, on which a representative Of tho employees of the mines should havo a voice.. This is an entirely new proposition wlncn we should wish to be more definitely defined. It will bo needssary for the directors of each company to consider, how such an innovation would accord with its articles of association and to consult its shareholders thereon. Wo feel, however; that tho suggestion should receivo the most careful attention and wo are willing to adjourn this coaferenco to afford timo for all parlies to come to a conclusion as to its advisability.'" •

The State Scheme. "That, gentlemen," continued Mr. Alison, "is tho decision which wo havo arrived at this morning. 1 should suggest that as wb have a representative of tho Mines Department here, hcy,mjght givo some further information to tho meeting with regard to the suggestion thrown out by the Minister,, of Mines yesterday. The Minister's . statement, nowevor, was not sufficiently explicit for either tho coal mine owners or the representatives of tho federation to havo a clear understanding of what is intended, and how the scheme is to bo appliod."

Mr. T. 0. Bishop (Acting-Under-Sec-retary of Mines): The proposal which was outlined by tho Minister of Mines in his speech yesterday is in detail as follows:—So far as tho Stato niinos are concerned it is impossible to yield to the demands mado by tho Federation of Labour for tho abolition of. tho contract system and tlio reduction, of hours to sovou hours per day immediately and six per _ day'in 1921. Tha reason why this is impossible is because it" is considered that tho State mino has no right to pass on to tho public tho, heavy'extra cost that would be involved. In lieu of granting these demands, the Mines Department and tho Government are willing to offor: (1) a voieo in tho management of tho mine to tho men; (2) improved living conditions; and (3) some form of superannuation and insurance against sickness or unemployment from unavoidable causes. As regards the representative of tho men to bo elected to tho Board of Control,' tho election will bo done in this way: All the men employed ill tho Slate mine will havo tho right to nominato a representative. Tho representative to ho nominated mast bo an employco of the mine, and must, remain _an employco throughout the whole timo that lie acts as .representative on tho board. _ If there should bo more than ono nomination, a ballot will bo taken by tho officials of- tho mine. The ballot will bo absolutely secret, arid the ballot-papers will be destroyed after tlio vote has been tnlcen. With regard to improved living conditions and tho payment of superannuation and insurance, details of these schemes havo not yet been drawn up. But I am authorised to soy that tho Government is prepared to make Bunanga, and any of the new State townships that may bo established, model townships as far as it is possible to do so.

Adjourn? Tho chairman said it wae a question for tho coiiforenco as to whether there should he an adjournment to consider tho effect of the proposals of the- Minister of ifiuos tor tho establishment of ft Bonrd of Control in tho Stuto mines. Necessarily this raised a very important question for all other mines, because if this Board of Control was established in tho Stuto mines it would bo a question for tho federation and for the companies as "to whother anything of the sort could bo dono in Wio other'mines. If there was to bo anything of tho sort it would mean probably an alteration in tho articles of association of some. o>\ the companies, and in any case it would hrtft, to bo considered by them. .Tho proposal before the meeting was that tho conference adjourn in order Ihat fuller details might be obtained concerning this now idea, and fuller consideration given to it. The Federation's Side. Mr. Jtoberts (federat'on) said it would be unfair to adjourn tho conference at this stage before the miners' representatives had bad tho opportunity of replying to somo of the statements that hail been made by tho other side through i\lr. Alison. Mr. Alison had stated that he had submitted figures, and that there had been no rebuttal of these inures. This was a surprising statement tu lie made. Tho federation delegates had known nothing of the figures to lie produced until they were Tcad at the meeting by Jlr. Alson. It must be made dear that tho miners' representatives were .not going to accept these figures. They challenged overy one of them, and they would reply to thorn with other figures prepared by exports on their sido. by actuaries euf-

ployed by dicmsolvcs, Tho figures produced oy Mr, Alison could not l>» allowed •£ P> owe to the public without being dealt with.. Tho miners would have to jir'esciit their 'side of the question as to what tho elfew was going to bo if tlio contract system were abolished iu the coal mines, it was unfair to taunt lite federation with having no figures with which to reply to those of Mr. Alison, because those figures used by Mr. Alison had been prepared sonic time ago, and certainly they had not been produced in an hour. The miners coiud not reply verbally, aid i.n tho moment to figures of that character. When they made a statement they .must know that their figures wpre correct, mid they must have time to prepare them. He could see no necessity for the adjournment of the conference" on this t|iieslion of-'tbo system of control of the State mines. Tho conference was not dewing with the 9rate mines, but with the mines under tho. control of tlio Coal Mine Owners' Association members. If tlicrn should be any nteessity for considering tho State mine's, the federation rouiu go imo that question with the Government. No similar statement had been made by tho coal owners, so tliab I here was no need for ah adjournment bequso of that question. But tho federation had a reason for asking for an adjournment. It was that they should have opportunity of examining tho extraordinary statement made by Mr. Alison. The owners' experts had gono into rhis matter, and it was only fair that tho federation and its experts should have a chance of considering it. Thero was another matter yet to°bo dealt with by the federation. Tlio Minister had made a speech directed at. the coal miners, and iii it he had made certain statements demanding a reply. The federation wanted to reply to tho Minister, but they wanted him to bo present when that matter was being dealt with. He therefore asked that tho conference adjourn until Monday, and in the meantime they would prepare for clearing tho'way for the conclusion of tlio business for which tho conference had been called.

No Discussion of Demands. The owners bad never given any _ consideration to the proposals of the miners for the abolition of t'uo contract system. The miners had asked for careful con. sidevation of these proposals, but tha owners would not even discuss them, lio contended that the. 4.0(10 or » minen in this country had- a right to expect that when they submitted a statement of claims the owners would show them t<ie courtesy of discussing it. As long as tho owners adopted this attitude Wey could not expect true co-opera-tion from the men. Ho would also put to tho owners this point tor further consideration. hvory - tairminded man would admit that the times were changing. Tho worker was deinniidin= now the right to bo heard. The day when tho worker would take what was "iveJi him and do as ho was told without claiming any rights, at; all had gone The worker now demanded the right to ho heard. If tho owners refused to discuss the claims of tho federation then ho would liavo to report to those whom ho represented that this had been the result of the conference. lie would much ' prefer to report to them that, the,employers had discussed tho proposals. Ho would-go into the figures for the mining .cost of coal, and if it was found that the. increase of Us. 6d. a ton would bo tho result of tho granting of the demauds of the workers then the miners of New Zealand .would not ask for them for five, seconds. Tho miners wanted to have not a shortage of coal but a surplus of coal for everybody, in New Zealand, and ho wanted tho public to understand that the miners of New Zealand could not be held-'.responsible for tho shortage of.coal in future if the foal owners refused to discuss th»se demands.

Owners' Reply. Mr. Alison said that it was a reasonable request that tho miners should havo an opportunity of examining tho figures ' presented by the owners. When figures were presented unexpectedly, it was fair that the other side should have an opportunity of replying to them. But if there should alterwn.rds be any dispute about the correctness of either set of figures, then they should bo referred.to some impartial and- reliable authority. The owners were prepared to stand by .their figures and to support them before .any expert authority.' They, would have no objection to both their figures and the federation's figures being placed before the Board of Trade, or before a commission appointed by tho Government, on which commission there might bo ono representative from each of the parties to the dispute. But it would be wasto of timo to discuss the five points which the owners had said must be •eliminated from the demands. They had considered them fully, and it would be useless to consider them further. Tho miners' representatives contended that the abolition of tho euntract system would not reduce the output of coal. If they talked for threo months they would not alter tho conviction of tho mine owners on that matter, because they knew that the effect of such an innovation would be. not a small reduction but an enormous reduction. The owners had had practical experience of it. It was also contended that the reduction of working hours would not' reduce output. The owners said that it would havo this effect. The experiment had been tried in England already. I'liero had been"an iucreaso of 6s. a ton in the price of coal, and on one coaj.-field. a drop in production of 1(16,000 tons a week. No argument could get over these facts. Ho was prepared lo agree to the adjoiiHUtt'pnli of the conference until Monday, on tlje understanding that when tho miucrs presented (heir figures the owners would have an opportunity of replying to .them. "lln would ask also that the federation representatives should come to tho meetiug prepared to announce' whether they would agree lo the elimination of the demands which the owners had mentioned.

Board of Trade\Finures Not Accepted. ' Mr. Roberts said it would bo useless to talk about, figures unless they went into them properly. If there should be a reference of the figures to an independent actuary, then tho miners would want all tho companies' books to substantiate the figures given. Mr. Alison: Take the Board of Trado figures as a basis. Mr. Roberts: "No. We do not question tho figures of tho Board of Trade. All that wo say regarding them is that wo don't, know, and when u man docs not know' where ligures como from ho does not accept them." Ho added_ that all these would be questions for future consideration when he produced the federation's figures. Tlio men did not know -Whether tho Board of Trado figures woro right or wrong, because they did not know how they had bcon compiled, having had nothing to do with the compilation of llieiii. Mr. Alison seemed to be of opinion that the abolition of the contract system would practieally eliminate production altogether. Referring to an-« other aspect of the matter, ho said that if proof wcro required as to whether tho miners would produco coal under their own managoniont tho test could bo obtained by handing over to tho miners a normal mino for a period. Mr. Jlavell: Vou own them all now. Mr. Roberts: "If that is so, pas? over the titlo deeds and the miners will let the public havo the coal." He argued that under tho daily wago system the production of the mines could bo increased under efficient 'management. Possibly a slight incrcaso might bo necessary in the pi'ico of coal. At Homo uiidw tho now scheme of reduced working hours the mines had shown in a month a decreased output. A fair test of tho system could lie obtained only after the scheme had 'been on trial for twelve months. In the Siinkoy report this increase at. tillo beginning of the new order was anticipated.

plain Talk. Mir. li'lavol'l said that one-would ga'thor from the speech of Air. Huberts-that tlio miners wero tho only people in tho country desirous of keeping up tho production of coal. As a matter of fact, no demands Unit had ever been put to tho coal owners would have had the same I'lieel in reducing output as tho demands which had just beeii presented. .It war, proposed in effect to increase the supply of co:il by working one hour less a day, by working one day less in a fortnight, by having 4l fortnight's holiday on full ;>ay every year, and by gelling other concessions such as tho abolition of the contract system. Tho representatives of tlio federation would not accept the. figures of (he Hoard of Trade. It appeared thai they would accept nothing unless it was (Imir own. The Hoard of trade, consisted of gentlemen not anv ol whom was interested in the coal industry, mid ono of its members, Mr.

JTn'lJy, was reputed to be a Labour sympathiser if not a member of tho Labour f'arty. Hut tho statement by the board was not accepted by the miners. Ho could say for his own company that tho board had obtained from the office tho fullest information, supported by the records of the company, and ho believed Unit this was done by other companies. It seoined lo him that (he federation would not accept the Jlgures of tho Board of Trado because' the figures did not show what tho federation had expected that they would show. Tlio report had disclosed to the public that tho mines returned to the shareholders a paltry five per cent, of profit, and this profit . was shown only by making insufficient allowance for depreciation and other charges. ■ perhaps it was that the miners were working; to upset tho scheme of industry under which jicople at present w r ero living and working now. While they were doing this the public would 1 sudor. Coal was already high in price and very scarce, and when tho colliery owners tried to increase the output, they were met with obstacles at every turn. How tho miners could make their present demands and say that the eifect of them would he to increase the output of coal ho was ;;t a loss to understand. It was su absolutely clear that if a man worked ouo hour a day loss, and one day a fortnight less, and received a pound a day however much or little coal ho got., there must be a reduction in his output." If the federation insisted on going into tho figures independently he hoped that they would accept the Board of Trade figures as a basis of calculation. It was very easy to mako statements such as those that had been made at the conference, that tho miner got 2s. Id. a ton for hewing tho coal, and that the public paid .£! n ton for it. What, he did want to make clew was that tho difference did not by any means go to the coal owners as profit., His opinion was that the proposal made with regard to the State mine was a wonderful advance to the men. There would bo a ■ representative of the union on tlio Board of Control, and this man. would see for himself, and ho able to U'li his fellows, .whether profiteering was going on, or whether it was all uuagination. It would fjivo tho men an opportunity of knowing what was done at tho State mine, and so they would know fairly well what went on in the control of other mines. In reply to tho suggestion that tho present working of tho mines was inefficient, ho would point oui that thero were inspectors of the Mines JJepartmeut whoso duty it was to see that the working of the mines was proper. His own opinion was that as far as it was practicable the most modern methods of winning coal were being adopted. The Housing Question.

A great deal was being made of the housing question, particularly with regard to Denniston. It happened, in: tne placo wa.s deprived by nature of many advantages; it waa on top of a mountain. The houses with which fault has mostly been found aro those at Burnett's Face. These huts wero almost en tirely on Crown land, and they had been built by the men who lived in them. They had not been supplied by tho company. All the houses built with money advanced by the company were gooq collages. Tho company would be willing to set up a housing committee, if ti. union would appoint representatives, lint iii this tho colnpany would be up against thisMiiiiculty, that a man*who was living rent free in a placo of his own,, oven if only a shack, would not leave it to go into another house for winch he would Jiavo to pay rent. Tho clamour for better housing was the outcome of a higher standard of living now bsing asiux. for by the community. A few years ago the houses had been considered- quite satisfactory and up-to-date. If the workers now wanted more comforts iii their houses the company would bo prepared to assist in providing them as lar as possible, and so- to add to tho comfort of the men.and then"fainiUes. It' wa.s (juito /erroneous' to say tnat tho- companies had liu boweis of compassion. J-n. company had built club rooms, change houses — Air. Arbnckle: And bath houses? M'r. Ji'liivell: Yes, ivnd bath houses. "Mr. Arlkwklo: I don't think. Mr. i'lavell taidYthat bath houses had been built,- and if either bath houses wero,, required at -Burnett's h'ace they would be provided. Mr. Arbucklo: You have been thinking about them for three or four years., Sources of Figures. Mr. O'Brien said that the federation did 'not wish to challenge l'roiessor Eight's figures /in tho report of tho Board of Trade, but they .were doubtful us to the sources from which those figures would have to be compiled. He said tiuit wrong methods of booking of contract work were adopted in some of Hie mines, and this mignt account for toiue of the very high wages said to havo been earned by some of the men. He mentioned instances in which he had hiiuj self, discovered errors. He declared that it was an unjust thing to have this inquiry mado without consulting, the Kinens, in any way. Mr. Alison said that the report of the Board of Tnuto could.,not bo lightly set aside. It was not tho report of .1 lamina owners. The miners had no voico in tho inquiry. Tho Board of Trade acted quite independently and iuipaiiiallv. In thoir calculations tho owners had, for the purposes of tho figures subknitted to tho conference, taken tho figures in tho report of the Board of Trade as a basis. If the miners were to supply figures Unit were to bo of value they'must start with a proper basis, and the basis should lie the samo as that used by tho owners. If tho federation would not accept ' the board's figures, then it was evident that , they (••ought by their figures to prove something that was not correct. Ho wpuul offer no objection to the adjournment to allow the federation to present figures, but the basis of tho figures should be the report of tho board. But on Monday morning the conference could not proceed with any other matter tin ess tho federation would withdraw tho demands which the Coal Mine Owners Association had refused to discuss. Mr. Eflbcrts said that he proposed to rely on- other figures than thoso in the report. The federation knew nothing about the figures in tho report, and it would rely on other figures about which it did know something, figures smnliea from the mines by men quite competent to give them.

Arbitration Suggested. Tho chairman said that one set of figures had been presented bv the owners, and he did not think it would be of. any n-o to meet on Monday to receive another set of figures from the federation. It would bo idle to argue as to the correctness of the two opposed sets of figures. Ho suggested that the 1111110 owners might, if they cared, go over their figures again, and that the federation should bring forward carefully adjusted figures, and that then these two sets of figures should bo submitted to an expert appointed by tho Government, with a representative of cither party to tho dispute. To allow of this examination being made lie would suggest, that the conference adjourn for a week or a fortnight, and then tho conference might arrive at something satisfactory. But to dispute about figures which would have no authority would hardly be useful. Before ihe conference could decido anything useful thoro must bo figures produced which would be acceptable to either parly. Mr Bishop said ho was suro that ho would have the approval of the Minister in supporting the proposal made by Sir C!eorge Clifford. He promised that if this suggestion were adopted he would assist in the preparation of figures for tho Stale mines.

A Flat Refusal. , Mr. O'Hourke said that the federation was not prepared lo accept tho suggestion. Mr. Alison had submitted figures which the federation- believed were nothing like authentic, and they wished to combat them. They were sure that thev could combat them by Monday morning.- "If," ho said, "you are endeavouring lo evade the meeting, then just Kiiv so, and we'll know where we are. We have, been put to expense in bringing our men here." Mr. Alison: So have we. Mr.O'lfnurko: "We'aro asked to send the men homo again, and then to reassemble i hem. The miners of New Zealand are not going lo slum! for this. The miners want I he filing considered on its merits." lie went on to say that I he minors' proposals bad not been discussed. After they had refuted Mr. Alison's figures on Monday they,would ex-

peel; Hid owners to discuss these proposals To Put Themselves Right with the Public. Mr. Roberts: "It is necessary from our point of view to ileal with tlieso figures. We don't believe tlieso figures are correct, and we have to put our case before the public, because if the public of New Zealand thought that the miners were going to impose a tax of lis. Od. a ton on coal, tho public would lie turned against us. • 1 said yesterday that the production of tlieso figures by Mr. Alison was gallerv piay, and I am of that opinion still.." It is imperative for our side to refute those figures; it is a point of honour ivith us, und'i say it is a point of honour for voii to allow us to do so. Ho added that thev wished to have an opportunity of replying to the sermon delivered to them by the Minister, tor the Minister had given'them a "caning. Mr. Alison: Mr. Robert.? is hedging very much on this question of figures. Ho says, "Wo are going to base our injures on information which our men give us." tie wants aiu opportunity of presenting figures with no basis except what the miners choose. We on the other hand, take the figures ot tho Board ot Trade, which has made the fullest and most careful investigation of tho mines ot this country. Whatever figures may be presented by Mr. Roberts or the federation on the lines he says will not be worth a snap of the. fingers, -they wi.l bo only bogus figures, produced simply to mislead the public. Mr. .Roberta took strong exception to this statement, and declared that tlio object of tho miners was to toll the public the whole truth,

Get Valid Figures. The chairman: With regard to tho proposition I have made, tho object ot it is to get valid figures. I don'c think we will servo any useful purpose by further discussing figures. What I suggest is that we should present our figures, and vou should present yours, and that these figures from both sides should bo canvassed by an expert appointed by tie Government and a person appointed b> either side. Then the figures might be useful for this conference to consider. But unless we' do something- of this sort we shall never get one atom forward. Again, Mr. Roberts very properly points out that our figure? havo been published and theirs have not I see no objection to either party publishing these,figues for the consideration of the public, but these-figurcs from both. sides should afterwards be tested by this expert and tho two assessors, who, I hope, will bo appointed. ■ I think that we might arrive in that way at a conclusion that would he useful to the mine ownors and the federation.

Important Questions. Mr Arbnckle: I would like to understand one or two points. You have definitely stated that you are not prepared to give ns a discussion on the demands we have made. ' . , Mr. Alison: No, not on the hvo points we have named. Mr. Arbuckio: Not in any shape 01 form? Mr. Alison: No. Mr. Arbnckle: Aro you on the othei 'side of the house prepared to submit anv proposals to ns?. Mr. Alison: "We aro quite prepared to discuss tho other proposals submitted. Whether an agreement will lie armed at I am not prepared to say." He went on to say that while they all felt that .the Andi'tions at present existing were highly satisfactory to the miners, and they held that the present agreement had six months to run, they were prepared to discuss the other proposals Mr Arbnckle ?ai<l that the federation held that tho agreement had already expired. "I want to know now, ho said, "seeing that you liavo cut away the whole basis of mw proposed national agreement, what tbe position is. We submitted proposals for the abolition of the contract system, and this covers so many things that if wo had submitted an agreement without .this provision there would have been an altogether different set of proposal?. You have cut. these proposals right out, which means,that von have cut out tho y/hole agreement. /In theso circumstances I ask, Are yon prepared to submit any others m their place? ' „ , At a Dead End. Mr. llryor: I think wo have agreed that wo aro not going to get any iarther V/o are somewhat at a dead end at the moment. I should suggest that it would bo advisable to allow our friends to .prepare their figures on any basis they like. Let us liavo their figures and let us deal with them on Monday. Then wo shall havo hvo sets of figures, andsurely it will then appeal to tho conference "that it will be advisable to get eomo outside body to deal with these two sets of figures. ~,.., • Mr. T. S. Weston moved tliat the conference adjourn until Monday morning.

Plain Answers. Mr. Roberts: Before that question is decided I should like to know one or two things. Are we going to work all night to-night, and all next day, although it is Sunday, in the preparation of tueso figures, which, wo have to bring here on 'Monday, and then when wo put theso figures before you, are wo to understand that you wilt not then discuss the abolition of the contract system? Mr. Alison: Yes, that is so. Mr. Roberta: Is lhat the position? Mr. Alieoh: Tnat i 9 the correct position. N Mr. Roberts: You have agreed that we bring figures. If they aro correct, what is the purpose of the figures if you refuse to discuss the ahohyon of the contract system? It is useless for us to bring figures if you people say you will not deal with the.contract system. Is it any use our gomg to the trouble of producing these figures? Mr. Alison: Tnat is for you to decide. Mi'. -Roberts: if wo aro to produce figures it is only fair That you should go into theso ligures, and go into the abolition of the contract system. Mr. I-'lavell: I think it has' already been decided that if the men presenttheir figures wo arc prepared to liavo those figures examined and compared with our own willba view of seeing what the cost of the abolition of tho contract system to the mines is likely to be. And i think it has already been decided by us that we aro satisfied that this cost is going to be such a burden on tho public that it will be impossible for tho public to carry it if the demands aro granted. I sec no reason why tho federation should not prepare figures, because wo believe it will open their eyes to the position'-, we have put to them. AV'c are certain that their figures cannot differ from ours jf they aro prepared 011 a proper basis. We have suggested tho calculations in tho report of the Board of Trade as a fair basis for tho preparation of these figures. If you go into figures you will see that it is impossible to consider tho abolition of the contract system because of the great extra cost that it would involve. 1

Another Question, Mr. Eoberts: Suppose we prove that Hie increased cost would not be anything like that stated in the figures submitted by Mr. Alison ? Then are you prepared to discuss tho abolition of the contract system ? Wo want to know now whether it is any use for us to prepare figures and bring them hero if you a.ro not prepared to discuss tho position. All you aro prepared to do, it seems to me, is to mako statements to tho Press. We aro prepared to bring figures, 'but along with the figures we want you to discuss the abolition of the contract system. Mr. Arbuckle: 1 want to put this posilion to yoii. We, as representatives of tlio miners, have no. power to withdraw those five points from this agreement. Those poijils must bo discussed so far as wo aro concerned. We must go back to tho rank,< and filo and tell them that we have discussed these proposals. Whether our efforts aro successful or not is a' matter for the future consideration of Hie men of our organisations. These aro their demands. If their demands aro not to ,1k discussed, then that means tho red flag to the men. 'if you don't discuss them, then you must submit another set of proposals to them, otherwise tho position remains at a deadlock, and filio fight is on then. I think tho owner's should consider that between now and Monday morning. Mr. Alison •. Mr. Roberta raised the question of figures, first by saying that tho '■.nal owners had presented figures which his friends did not accept, and he asked for an o.niinrlmiity of presenting uioro figures. Wo agree to that, but we do say that the figures should bo on a right basis, Having pressed this point, and.

having raid that he called upon tho coal owners to act honourably in Hie maltcr'and givo him an opportunity of presenting figures, now, when ho has been given an opportunity, ho says ho will present llio figures if we agree to discuss tho contract system, which wo have Enid wo will not discuss. So far as wo are concerned, wo aro prepared to adjourn tho conference to afford von an opportunity of submitting figures" on Monday. If you say then that you are prepared to discuss tho other demands, after eliminating tho iho to which reference has been made, then wo shall be prepared to discuss with you, and pos- , sibly wo may como to an agreement. But the fivo extraordinary and impossible demands it is only waste of time to niscuss-.

Threats, Mr. O'Brien: In regard to the refusal of tho owners to discuss thssc points 1 would like to say that the position is very serious, it is going 'to be very serious if you refuso to discuss them, i hope you aro also prepared to take responsibility for your action in refusing, to discuss them. In tho district 1 represent, and there are fivo mines in that district, 1 way say that if the owners still refuso to discuss tho demands, I shall have lost control of tho men a; once, and I don't know what will happen. Mi. M'Bridc: We can't alter the proin any shape or form, and we must have an answer whether you aro prepared to discuss these proposals, or whether you aru prepared to submit' counter-proposals tor tho tlelegateo to lake back to the miners, ft will be for them to say" whothcr they will accept them or not. Tho position wo aro in is Uiat we must get an answer, and Uteri we will know whero we stand. It is no use wasting time hero unless wo get somu definito answer. Mr. TosclaiKl: 1 would suggest that the coal owners get together and consider this matter, and give us some deiinito decision on Monday morning as to wha; they will do. if something is not done, then something will be done by the men ou the job. Some improvement in the conditions of work in tho mines must bo made, and I consider you will have ample opportunity of coming to a decision between now and Monday morning. We want a definite unswer, "Yes" or "J\ T o." .If tho, answer is "No," and we have to go back to tiie miners and tell them that thero is nothing doing, that the- owners wouid not discuss tho demands, then the men will bo out of control. If trouble arises it will be tho iauit of the coal owners.

Chairman Advises Again. The chairman: I havo nodiing to. do with tho suggestions mudo as"to tho discontinuance or work, or with tlio refusal of the cual owners to consider, certain matters; But I do think it )s necessary to have figures before tiie conference which can Do accepted by both sides. 1 have suggested ilnit the should bo examined by a Government expert. 1 would suggest chat if the conference is not to ba abortive, then wo must havo tneso figures examined. Everybody was getting restive by this time—it was past ouo d'clook—and there was pressure for' an adjournment from* both side 3. Sir George Willow's suggestion, made for the third time, still aid not receive consideration. The conference adjourned until this, morning.