BRITAIN AND SOUTH AFRICA

Dominion, Volume 12, Issue 259, 29 July 1919, Page 5

BRITAIN AND SOUTH AFRICA

CLEAR STATEMENT OF POLICY

MR LLOYD GEORGE AND

HERTZOG

: A °|T foment of British' policy in regard to tho future of South Africa was given by Mr. Lloyd George in reply to the South African Nationalist deputation, headed by Genornl Hertzog, which interviewed the Prime Minister m Paris on June 5. The following report of the interview has been issued:— _ The deputation consisted of tho followT? B. M. Hertzog and Mr. cl l .Havenga, from the Orange Freo bti\tej Senator A. D. W. Wolmarans and JJiv H. Heitz, from the Transvaal; Dr. I'. Malan and Adv. F. W, Beyers, from the Capo Provinca; Mr. A. T. Spies and Adv. E. C. Jatisen, from Natal. In a statement of tho.ca'soit is pointed out that the chief object of the deputation is to lay Ijefore the British Government the claim of the former South African Kepjiblio and Orange Free State to tho restitution of its nationnl status obtaining before the war of 1899-1902.

In, opening the proceedings before the Prime Minister, General Hertzog- said thfly were sent by practically the" whole population which they represented. The feelings which had been expressed by the voters wero' really the sentiments of the majority of the old population in South Africa. Thus they were not representing an insignificant minority, bnt people whose only country was South Africa. He contended that a proportion of the British section in South Airica claimed for themselves superior privileges and preference for anything that was British. In politics, as had happened only too'often during this last war,' they assumed to themselves the right of saying in. South Africa what should be felt and what should be done, jnd in'a time of crisis they jverc led !>y feeling of the country of their »ri<?in being in peril to assume an attitude towards the older population which rw'ty amounted to tyranny at times. ''When yon differ from them on any point of polities of the day you may be jWnl-ojv siivn thai you are immediately Sccried a pro-German or as German igents. If you .discuss a. Question as to •V> viirht of self-determination, you are fJpcrierl from every platform as a traitor sr "od'tinn-mn'iTnv, whatever they, may bp." This feeling in South Africa hart rife to irritation, exasperation, and I rio^encc.

No Racial Foiling; Measures were proposeu in England rlaon were abtoiucely .necessary maybe as tar as England was concerned, but the moment such measures were introducsa_.ii Jiiiguuu, eveli wnile inquiry was being , made as to whether tliey were necessary for South Airica, these questions were immediately taken up by these men in South Africa, and there.was a constant move for the adoption of measures which were not so milch considered as being necessary for South Africa as being in compliance with what people in England deemed jiecessary for Ensland. Mr. Lloyd George: There is no case in which either the British Government or the British Parliament has' attempted to enforce any regulation or any law of its own upon South Africa. General Hertzog: Oh, no,'not. one that I know of. It is the indirect inspira--tiou of which lam now speaking—ol* the inspiration which these men, m crder to act in conformity with Englishmen in England, give effect to in South Africa. General Hertzog then referred to a particular case —the ease of the deportation of Germans and men of German origin from South Africa. As far as he knew, no wish had been expressed by the 1 "r, Government with regard to 'that. What had been the result At the moment it was. declared in England "that that step was going to bo fakenun organised system.of meetings was cariied out all over South Africa. All these meetings were crying: out that not only the Germans, not only the, naturalised Germans, but every man with a German name or of German descent 'should'■'lie sent out of South Africa. This solidarity of national feeling had sometimes been attributed to racial hatred. He knew the old population, he fcnew the Loer. and he said in the most emphatic terms that thero was no racial feeling m South Africa, if by racial leeting was meant an antagonism due to race between Dutch and English Tho old population loved England. "1 think I say what is common to us all that we feel far nearer akin to an En"lishm -it moment come into contact with him than we do, as a luie, with anyone else, because of nur education i and qur tradition, and those small things '.which you cannot explain, but in life go so far." In regard to the ntw population,' tho British population, they prided themselves upon the fact that they had a divided interest, and that if it came to a question of whose interests were to take precedence, those of South Africa, or those of England, then tne majority of them declared they would havo_ those of England or the Empire. A big struggle had been going on for that very reason. Consequently, with two hostile national faiths like that, it was impossible for them not to be driven into two opposite political camps..

Natives Against Restitution. "1 have spuivii) atout rebellion," General Hertzog added. . "Well, sir, I leel this; that as far as South Africa is concerned, .South Africa is not wiilmg to light. The old population is not going to light unless it is mado\ by lorco to do it through measures which might make any people use violence m return, but tne oni population lias decided to continue pressing its claim to independence, and, while continuing to do it, will still continue along constitutional lines. We are here to-uay to j ask you that the wrong winch was doneih 11X12, may be undone to tile two .Republics." Air. Lloyd George': You might ju=t tell me one or two tilings tnai ! have a general knowledge 01. I would like to have your views with regard to them. Do you .Know anything about tho vie«» of cue native population of South Africa on this S'lbjectf General iiertajg: No, except what 1 have seen Ironi the papers. I beiievo they had a meeting at Jjioemfonlein'before we left, where, according xo -lie papers, tho natives a desire against tho restitution of the l''ree State. Air. Lloyd Gcorgo: 1 am asking that because 1. have only just heard that there is a deputation either arrived in Paris or coming to Paris. General Hertzog: I lake it, 6ir, that they are against restitution. Air. Lloyd George: Weil, that is a '•erj straight answer lo my question. Another question I should like to put to you is tliis: How many .Ministers are there iti South Africa?.

General Heilzog: '1 hey had ten some time ago. and 1 think at the present moment they have nine.. Air. Lloyd Gcorgo: How are they divided between the races? •

• General Henzog: I think tko greater majority are of Dutch descent, tunatelyThe Prime Minister: Why do you say unfortunaiely? They are very distinguished Dutchmen, General Hertzog: I say unfortunately because of their politics. The Prime Minister: For three years I was persecuted because I was a pro-Boer, 60 I know some of theso great leaders. General Botha I knew, and Genera! Smuts also.

Tha Prime Minister's Reply. In his reply which was subsequently ,'iveii. the Prime Minister said: It would, oi course, be easy for me to take the merely formal ground that as the important point you raise intimately concerns the Union of South Africa, which is a self-governing Dominion, the British Government could only listen to such representations as you have made if they came fiom the Government of the Union. General Botha, however, specially requested me to meet vour deputation, and to iav before you the point of view of the British Government, and I am very clad to do 60. It is quite clear from your statement, as well as from the resolutions which you have submitted, that you do not claim to speak for the whole people of the Union nor oven for 'lie whole people of the Transvaal 'and (he Orange Free Stnto. nor even for the whole of the Dutch'speaking people of those provinces. \ on represent tho wishes of a party whose adherents are almost entirely drawn from the older Dutch-speaking population of South Africa., and whose policy, as n *eoent vote in the Union Parliament

showed, is supported inly by the representatives of the nationalist party. Pur ther, as .you informed me, tho native population of South Africa is definitely against independence, and wishes to remain within tho British Empire.

You ask for the 11 stitution of tho national status of tho Transvaal and Orange Free State as it was before tho war of 1R(I9-1I)02. You ask.it, so I understand, not because of any interference with South African affairs by tho Government, the Parliament,' cr the people of tho United Kingdom. In .reply to my questions 011 this point—and I was most anxious to be reassured upon it—you said that there was less interference than ever hefore. lam particularly glad to have your assurance that you have no complaint to make on this pointy because it is a cardinal axiom of British policy to avoid any interference in tne internal affairs of any self-governing portion of tho Empire.

I Predominantly Dutch .Government. I should also like lo eay this about your statement as to the intolerant attitude of South Africans of British .origin and descent of their Dutch fellow citizens. I .have no immediate knowledge of South African conditions, but I think that British South Africans have accepted the settlements of 190G and 1910 with wonderful loyalty. I think their point of view is also entilled to consideration, and it is surely a great testimony to their good will that for tho last ten years a predominantly Dutch Government has been in iiower in South Africa, which has largely derived its power from the votes of British South Africans. '

The cafe which you make for the restoration of■ the . independence of the Transvaal and the Orange Free State, is hased purely upon South African considerations. I must say at once that I cannot see how it is possible for the British Government, or tho Imperial- Parliament to reopen a great settlement which has been forged out in the heat and ,trials of the past 20 years, because of political is.=ues which have arisen, not between South Africa and the United Kingdom, but between different sections of the South African people themselves. If the British Government, were to intervene it would, in my judgment, constitute an interference with those rights which were once and for all conceded to South Africa when the Imperial Parliament ratified tho Act of Union drawn up by a Convention of the South African people ar.d approved/by (ho freely elected Parliaments of the four South African colonies. !

Further, you will allow me, as you have come to present your views to the British Government, to express very frankly my own opinion as to tho wisdom of what you propose. I do not want to revive the memories of the past. My own attitude towards the Boer War and towards the Boer people is well known to you. When the Government of the

late Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman, of

which I was a member, came into power, ono of their first acts was to grant free constitutions to thql Transvaal and the Orango Free State. As the .outcome of those constitutions Governments compos-

Ed principally of the Dutch leaders in

the Boer War came into' power. You say that some of the South African Min-

isters have been weak men and too subject to outside influences. I, can only »ay that every soldier I have consulted has told me that General Botha was. one of tho most formidable, opponents against whom ho has ever fought, and that Field Marshal Lord French has publicly said that he. never had against him a more skilful general than General Smuts. I can niso confirm from my own experience the power and influence exerted' by. these two Dutchmen, both in the councils of the Empire and in the Peace ih-elf. Great Experiment's Succcss. I am happy and proud to say that the great experiment we made has proved ,a succ&ss which lias been the admiration of all who have watched it. The Boer people, loyally supported by South Africans of British origin, havo completely justified the confidenco and trust so fully, put in them by the British Government and people. They fully and unreservedly accepted. tho new institutions granted to them ; they proceeded on the new basis to build up a new country in 00-operation with their British fellow-citizens, and tho memories of old wrongs and sufferings were swallowed up in 1 the new, larger, and moro generous South African spirit. So far as my memory serves mo no claim or demand for the restoration of tho old independence was made by tho predominantly Boer Governments and Boer Parliaments whioh came into power under the new self-governing constitutions. .

Instead of raising any claim which would serve to divide one® more the people of South Africa and reopen the. ancient quarrel, they took the other alternative rind, on a basis of. full discussion, free agreement, and unfettered consent, entered into a lasting and indissoluble. unjon with the rest of British South ((Africa. The constitution of tho now Union was the free act of the whole peoplo of South Africa, representing both white,races and all the colonies. Each made sacrifices; each incurred risks for the great commop ideal; each surrendered its local independence and separate institutions in trust, in oomplete good faith, in the others. Do you think that tho other colonies or that either race would have been prepared to make this great surrender if they thought that the union was only temporary,_ only a passing arrangement of convenienco and not an indissoluble marriage for ever?

Tho view of the British Government is that the Union of South Africa rests on b grand pact, a fundamental understanding nnd'agreement between th§ British and Dutch elements of tho ' people of South Africa, in which both made sacrifices and surrenders for the attainment of a great common ideal, and that it cannot he dissolved by the one-sided action of either element without the consent of the other. At the most solemn moment in its history the people of South, Africa exercised ti free, deliberate, final choiec. It expressed that choice in a free constitution of its own creation.' Not only the Imperial Government but also the Imperial Parliament blessed and ratified that Constitution. The proclaimed principle of self-determination to which you refer has been given effect to by the people of South Africa in the fullest, freest,, most solemn, and' deliberate manner. ,

Disruption Difficulties, We could not agree to, any action which means the disruption, of the Union. To do otherwise would ruin South Africa. The restitution of the nafional status of tho old Republic would not only mean the break-up of the Union, it would also mean the break-up of the constituent parts of South Africa. For assuming, merely for the sake of argument, that it is the wish of the Dutch-speaking people of the Transvaal to break away from the Union and lo be restored to their pre-war Republican stains, are the equally numerous Britishspeaking people of that province not entitled to' any choice, in regard to their 'status? Arid suppose they desire to remain in the Union or to separate from the restored Republic, shall we have to proceed to the partition of the Transvaal? And if the predominantly native parts of South Africa exercise a choice in favour of separation from the Union, shall we have to cut off native territories from the Union and its provinces? Theso questions need only to bo asked in order to mako it clear how dangerous and, in fact, impossible it would be to recognise a mere sectional choice or determination exercised by .any part of the people of South Africa without reference to the will of the whole. Finally, I would point to the status which South Africa now occupies in the world. It is surely no mean nno. As one of the dominions of the British Commonwealth, the South African people control their own national destiny in the fullest sense. In regard to the common Imperial concerns Ihev participate in tho deliberations which determine Imperial poliov on a basis of complete equality. In the greatest Conference in history South Africa is represented hv two fibilftsmen of indubitably .Dutch origin, who have won for South Africa nn extraordinary influence in Hie affair* of the world. It is futile to believe that South Africa can ever return (o that isolation which was possible a century ago. The world has become too knit together; the action of one part impinges 100 directly and too rapidly on the fortune of ev'erv other part for any nation to keep outside (lie ?reat common current of human affairs. The formation of the League of Nations is tho recognition of this inexorable fact, and in the future League of Nations South Africa will have the same membership and status and far more influence than any of the other States which are outside the ranks of tho few Great Powers.

It may 1m that the significance of these facts lias not yet been fully realised by all tho South .African people, but they seem to me to bo a complcto answer to the aspiration for independence which you voiced on behalf of one section of tho people. Speaking to you not only as a British Prime Minister, but as tried friend and well-wisher of the Dutch peoplo, ami as myself a member of one of the small nations of tho British Empire, 1 would adviso your people with all the earnestness at my command not to endeavour to undo the past but to look forward confidently to the (front future which lies before a united South Africa, and to persevere on that road which Providence has marked out for our common line of progress.