THE HOUSE

Dominion, Volume 12, Issue 61, 6 December 1918, Page 7

THE HOUSE

After The BcutrxioS' vent topress- yesterday morning, the debate on the second rending of tile .Repatriation Bill was continued. Mr. J. P. LUKE (Wellington North) urged that the-duties;; of- repatriation could not lie discharged.efficiently by a board of Ministers. That system: would spell disunity and-lack of control.. The proper head, of tlie- Repatriation Department was the Minister, of .Defence; who--had: done very good work during the last four years. Mr. It. A. WEIGHT (Wellington Suburbs) said-.he viewed with, considerable uneasiness the,problems of repatriation. He hoped': the director would- not bo a military man. The amount of financial assistance'-, proposed'' to- be- given to returned: men- entering, business- was. not large'.enough. The Hon. W. J). S.' MACDGNALD, speaking at 2.25 aim., said' that over 25.000" men had returned to New Zealand already,, and had been dealt with; Thosemen, generally speaking, were- the sick' and wounded men. The majority-of the men still'to come were'fit and well, and lie- had no,fear, that New Zealand; could not absorb them. . Mr. P. FRA'SER-. (Wellington Central) said that, "the right to work" should be recognised in-.coivnection with the, returning soldiers'. . '['.here, was no reason why. ovary-' man. should, not be,placed in useful employment. The advantages -of, co-operative settlement ought to lie recognised. The ordinary avenues of private employment; would, not meet the needs of tlie reftiraing soldiers,, and New Zealand, like other civilised . countries, would have to.develop many. State, industries'. Ho'fhpiight the returned soldiors themselves should he represented on the hoards, of repatriation. SIR JAMES ALLEN, replying- at XIO alii'i., said he would- approve of an extension of tlie scope of the Bill to cover naval' ratings. Some of the criticism of the composition of the hoard might bis justified. The question was exceedingly difficult, owing to the necessity of unifying the efforts, of several Departments. The Director of Repatriation had not been selected; He must be a man of wide sympathy and sound business experience. The proposed-maximum advance of i:251l to re-establish a returned soldier in business represented in the aggregate a very large liability, and the House ought to remember that the security often would he very shaky. Tlie- gratuities to soldiers probably would.cost Jil.OOOitlOO, and the financial resources of the. Dominion were not unlimited. The Minister mentioned what was being done in England for the. education of the soldiers. The Government-' had decided to grant .not less than fifty scholarships flt English univeg'siiics. and it was moving in many other directions, with the object: of occupying the time of the men and preparing them for civilian occupations. Training was lifting, given on all the returning transports. Members who said that the Director of Repatriation should not be a military man seemed to forget that the

Arriiy was a civilian army. What were the ollieers but civilians who had put on (he uniform to fight lor their country in the prosvit war? The Dill was read a second time. The House adjourned at .1.20 a.m. until noon yesterday. YESTERDAY'S BUSINESS The House-met at noon yesterday. . The War Funds Amendment .Hill (the Uon.G. W. liussoil) was introduced and read « first time. The Expeditionary Forces Amendment Bill was introduced and read a first time. THE REPATRIATION BILL. Amendments lo the Repatriation Hill were introduced by Governor-General's }lessag;>. i . SIR JA.JI.ES ALLEX (Minister of Defence) said that the effect of the anie'Jlments would be to increase from .tlTifl lo ..£3OO. the amount of financial assistance by way of- loan that, might? b? granted to any discharged soldier to establish him in business. The amendments -.rere added to the Bill.' ' ' On the motion to go into Committee on the Bill,. ■llr. L. S\. ISITT (Christcliurch.Norlh) said that ho had had communication from the. Christchurch .. "Returned .Soldiers' Association asking that the. Bill -Jje (postponed until the following' day. in Hie meanlinie it would bo possible) he Moped, for the lec-al branch of. the 'association to men( members of Pnrliam-ni. The Prime. Minister agreed to the : postponement. EXPEOITIONAFIY FORCES BILL. . THE IUTMGXT Oh' GRATUITIES. •SIR JAMES'ALLEX (.Minister of Defence) moved the second reading of the Expedilionary .Forces ■ Amendment Bill. He said- that part of the Bill had been contained, in the measure dropped last year because of disagreement between the two Ho'u-e.j (on tho question of exemp-tion.-of-AlarUt .Brothers from mililnnservice): The Minister-covered briefly tho clauses in. the.Bill, mentioni)i.<r tlie ■p.ronos»d gratuitv to be giren to soldiers on discharge. The Minister said that [he present, proposal was lo give a. certain proportion of pay to every .soldier for every year of service. The amount lhat would be involved, if the scheme were finally approved:would-be a million aed a quarter. The Mini«t»r uade little or no comine.nl on the Bill, i .■■STL' JO.HX FIXDLAV (Hawke's Bav) said that the c'.ii'e-relating. )<i defaulters was not salisf'actory. 'The clan-is were of very wide annli'calion. and there was not sufficient right, r.f appeal from, the decision of (he Minister.' Tt wa< conceivable that the' Minister would not exert his. discretion wisidv. and Ihern .must be the rieht of a 'oldier lo opiieal against Iho unwise exercise of discretion by the Mini'tcr. of Defence proml-vd to have inquiries made into the mutter. • The second readintf-wa*'agreed 10. Mr M'ComH wished to .sneak; bu't he neglected hit opyorfuriity, and the Minister replied. t The' Shirkers. ' .- . In Committee, . Mr. J. .'MtComhs .said' that the C-jov-eriiinent was not doing the right thing by those soldiers who had-volunteered earl'v in the-wiir, and actually served when the. pay was ,4s, a day. He was sorrv- that the Government was trying to rush this .important Bill through. He objected to the proposal to disfranchise, defaulters, warmmr members that if the Labour Party .came into nower it might follow .the precedent and disfranchise financial shirkors.

Hon. members: Hear, hear. So they uught tu be. '

JJr. Al'Combs was a little nonplussed by the ready acceptance of,the idea I hat financial shirkers should be disfranchised. He declared that the franchise should be'a sacred' right. There were other ways of punishing men for wrongdoing. ;

Mr. Ell said-(,hat he could-not nnde-r----stand how any-member of Parliament could plead the cause of' the shirker— the cause of,the 1 men who had left New Zealand .-to avoid doing , their, share lo protect the-freedom •.of this land. -He declared that the doctors in the soldiers' hospitals were not giving properattention to-returned men. Many of tho complaints made by returned men were fully justified. These officers did not tell the Minister-the truth.- It. hoped that the Minister-would take up the-matter personally, and not put reliance on untrustworthy reoorts of officers..- These doctors, were giving most of their time to private practice, and neglecting.the poor- broken men-who had suffered on service abroad, Sometimes these men did not see a doctor for a week. They should he-visited by n medical officer at least cnee a week, i , .Replying -to a. question the Minister Buid that, the gratuity proposal, would ■Apply to- every man who had been on service.

Mr. ,G. .T. Anderson said'that, he would not tolerate any . consideration to- defaulters.. ' Ho-, would like' the Government to take away their property as woll as their franchise. The men should-bo ideported, A "lion, member: Who- would take them? Another hon. member: Germany would take them. Mr. Anderson thought they might be put away on an island .somewhere and left to\ fond for themselves,, They were a menace to this country. , "Prussian Vindictiveness." Mr. P. Eraser (Wellington Central) accused tho House of displaying a spirit of Prussian vindictiveness. He was able to understand the point of. view of the men who had conscientious objections to fighting. These..men .might be wro.g, and he himself did not fe'el as they .'.id, but at. least the conscientious objectors had tho courage ofi honest convictions. Air. Anderson, (Alataura): How are you ..going to hold your country 'if you will not fight for it? Mr. Fraser said that to admit that the safety of the State might demand tlie withdrawal, of the civil rights of any section .of the community was to introduce a most dangerous . principle. The. Bolsheviks -of Russia, mistakenly and wrongly, had applied, lliaf principle to the- middle and'.'property-owning, classes of their country. The organised, workers-of New Zealand-'.were; opposed to conscription, and *thfey. were sincere in their belief. Mr. L. M. Isilt (Cliristeliurcli North) said that.he had fought always to get fair treatment for the conscientious- objectors-. The Hill provided for tlie-cnse of the genuine religious obejetor. He-hnd-a good deal of sympathy for tlie man who said he would not bear armsend shod blood. But he. had no sympathy for the man who said that British rule was no better than German rule. Ho had no sympathy for the man who, when asked- if he was patriotic, said that he "thought he was." It was high timo that the' man .who said he' would not serve 1 his country .and tight for his country was' told that he, could- have, no say in the,:government of his country. Air. J. - ll'Combs (LylteHon) urged thill: Hie Bill: should not be '■ hurried through the House. Many bodies were interested. The lion. T. M. Wilfoitl: Do yon think that a. real- shirker .'should have a vote? Mr? M'Combs: "I leave that point for the moment." He Asked that the Bill should be postponed for a <hiy. Sir .lames Allcn.snitflie could not: consent la a postponement.. The sole new principle in the liill w.ls that relating'to the payment of gratuities. "■■'. Air. W. A. Veitch (Whnrtgnui) protested Hint lie hnd not had any chance to read the Bill, and he would not take any sharp of responsibility for such hasty legislation. Mr. P. I'Vnser continued his appeal for' consideration tor the objectors. He said-; that many ol" them, had gone to camp and had ; complied, with orders except where the orders .violated their consciences,. Jt sl;onld be remembered that new laws mid new conditions hnd been brought into existence during tlie war. Dr. A.,, K, Newman ' (Wellington East) said he hnil.no time to waste on objectors.- llis'coiicern was fur the men who had done their duty under conditions of extreme hardship and suffering. Alen were being discharged from the hospitals and put to.civil employment 100 soon.. They were told the hospitals could do no more for them, and lh.il. I hey ought, to get light jobs. Hut light jabs were not available, and the men were not tit for steady work under normal conditions. Tho

military patients in the hospitals often needed cheering up. Air. I". \i. ytalliiini (Duncdin Central) asked if dependants if fallen soldiers would share the war bonus, The Minister, of 'Defence said the dependants would share according to the length of service of the fallen soldiers. jr Tin) Religious Objectors, Mr. .Slathiun said thai so-called religious objectors, who- would pay for other men to light a,nd would accept all the liberties andprivileges won for thcin by other men on the field, were not worth consideration. Mr. G. Willy (Riecarton) suggested tint "financial shirkers" should be put on the same fooling as the oilier shiirkers. Mi. 11. CI. Ell (Chrislc-hurch Soulh) denied that organised labour in Sew Zealand was opposed to compulsory military service. The so-called lenders of Lalioii.r did not really represent. Ihe organised workers, who regarded selection of recruits by ballot wilh favour because it was a democratic arrangement. "I have notinie for shirkers, at: homo or abroad,'' said the Hon. Dr. Pomnre (Western Maori).- "J, Ihink that the shirkers in this country arc very lucky to lose only ten years of'their civil rights. A shirker at the front would be'shot." Mr. M'Combs (Lytteltou): The British are not a savage people. Dr. Pom are: Some gentlemen are not even British. Dr. .Xcwman (Wellington East 1 emphasised Ihe need for increased aliention to the requirements of the invalided so], diers. 1.1: .often -haopened that when a doctor had recommended I hat a. man should get ('..pension for six months. Hie Pensions Beard allotted < nly three months. The men,, rather than press for llieiT rights, wenl l« work before they wcro lit: feint. .Members did r.ot hear about the-o things, bfcacise (hey lived by themselves iii an plaited atmosphere. Mr. .T. V; .Brown IXnpier) urged that the cost ouglit not. to be counted when provision was 'being made for the soldiers and their dependants. The nation had a 'debt to pay. Dr. Thacker (Clirislchnreli Easl) a.sked ■when (ho'Do'fence Department intended to restore (he "stolon hospital wards." In ■Wellington and Chrisiehurch waTcls occupied by old people suffering from incurable diseases bad been seized, the old people had been scattered, and' the wards had .bcpu put under niilitnrr rule. 1 Mr. U. A. Wright (Wellinglon Snburlis) asked how the/Lonarlide religious • objector would be denned. Some men could develop religious- objections on ('short notice. I Sir James Allen replied that a board would be set up to ileal with the cases and secure, uui'forihitv. The Hon. T. M. Wilford said (here would be no dilticiilly in classing some of.the objectors. He hud been compelled to hold up letters written by some of these men—absolutely diabolical' let-j-'rs., 11 o • might take occasion to read 'some' of these letters to the House. Mr. 11. .M'Callunn.l.Wairnu): How many of iliein are in prison altogolluT? ;Mr. Wilfordi About •JtOate in gaol now. Some of them have gone out. Mr. M.'Callum: How many altogether? Sir .James Allen: .1 can't WW you how many. .Mr. ,1. . M'Combs (Lytlelion) said the Relur'necl Soldiers' Association, in Wellinglon had received copies of the Bill at ,) p.m. that. clay. .They-had not had. any time to-- make, reprc'senlations. He suggested 'hat the Bill should be held over lor consideration. Mr. G. Witty (Riecarton) , supported This suggestion.. The Minister said he. would agree to : report progress. ■ Members: No, no. < . At 8 p.m. progress on the Bill wfis I reported. .■ The Public Works Statement and ■Estimates were then brought clown Ihe Minister of Public Works (the Boil. Sir William Eraser). WAR LEGISLATION' BILL. The I'rmio .Minister and Mcssts. .J. 'M'Combs and C. E. Slatham wore appointed managers, to confer with the Upper House regarding, the disagreement on the matter of Iho rent restriction clause of tho War Legislation and .Statute Law Amendment Biil. , - LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL AMENDMENT BILL. The Prime Minister moved the second reading, of the Legislative Council Amendment Bill; Mr. Massey said .that legislation was absolutely necessary to earrvi into effect the provisions of the Act of 19.1 L Ho had' promised that, tho House should have an- opportunity of considering, the proposals in respect to the election of members to Ihe Council, and that promise still held- good. Mr. G. Witty (Kiecarton) objected to electing members to tho Council, and thought that preference of appointments should be given to men w.ho bad served in the. Lower House. Men were .appointed to the Council who bad no grip of politics. With the exception of one or two members, those who had been appointed to the Legislative, Council had no experience whatever in the T.dwer/House. If lie had his way he- would repeal • the proposal that Iho Legislative Council should be elective. He had no objection to. appointing members/ for. a tt'rnv of seven Years.' . ' '

Mr. " G. ' Forbes (Hurunuil agreed with tho idea of an advisory. Chamber.. He did not. quite agree with the principle of an elective .Chamber, .but he believed, that ndhaiige in- the system was neces'-. sary. With two elective bodies there was a ilanger that they might come 'into conflict. "Bad Old Systom." Mr. .T. M'COMBS (Lytlelton) said the Bill went much further than the provisions entered, into in the compact between the Liberals and the Reformers. He regretted that Sir Joseph Ward was not present to hear the discussion on the matter, as the Bill proposed-to rovert to the bad old system of seven-year appointments. If the Bill was supported by the Liberal -Party then that party was not acting fairly to the Labour group in the House! The Bill simply aimed at the -perpetuation of the.present vicious system of- appointment to the Upper House. The Upper House should bo made responsible not to the Government,, but to the people. That-was the tendency of the age. Under tho nominative system the Upper House was not a representative Chamber, and could: not speak on behalf of the people: The Government should reserve the right of making appointments to the Upper House only up to the point when the system of appointments' became- elective: Air. M'Combs indicated that he supported the granting «i the frnncliine lo women. Dr.. A. K. NEWMAN Vellington F/isl) considered that tlie. I • had. arrived when women should h:;\"' the right to sit in the House. Be en--'derail that an amendment should be ;.. .wu to that effect. A Conflict of Authority. Mr. H. CI. ELL ■(Christchurch South) opposed the elective systeni as regarded the Council, as it: would, lead to a conflict of authority. The Council would want to 'initiate legislation and' would claim equal rights with the House of Representative--, "f hope the lime will ooino when this Chnmhor will be tho electoral college for the appointment of members lo another place,"- concluded Mr.. El!. Arc. .1. PAYNE (Grey Lynn) contended I hat women should be allowed lo enter Parliament. A precedent in this connection had been established by the British 'Parliament. The Bill was read a second time and then committed. * '.Mr. 11' Combs, moved an amendment that appointments lo the Council should terminate in 1921. The amendment was negatived by 14 votes to 15. The remainder of tho clauses were carried without debate. _ Women Eligible to Sit in ParliamDnt. II r. M'Combs then moved Ih:it a new clause be added, providing that women be eligible to sit in Parliament. This was agreed to by 31 volts to 27. The division list is as follows-.—For the addition CM): Anderson, Anste.y, Brown, Buddo. Ciak'ie, .1. M. Dickson, Ell, T. A. H. Fiolil.'l 1 . Pra.-er, Ik-uare.' Horusby, Luke, il'Culluni, M'Coiubs, Dr. A. I\. Newman, Ngala, Parr, Payne. Poole, ■Peed, Siilev, S. !.i.'Smith. Stewart. Svkes, Talbot. TfmiiiWn. Yeilch, Walker. Wilinrd, Wilkinson. Wright, .'.gainst c' 7): Sii; ,lame- Allen. Dullard, Sir .lames Carroll. Colvin...l. S. Dick.-rnii Forbes. Sir William Fi\wr. Guthrie, llarri.-. Heme's llud-on, .lenning-. life, \laeDuuuld, Uusft'}', Myers,' E. Newman..

Xoswnrlhv, Poaroo, Poninro, T. AY. lihndes, h'u.s=»ll, .Scott, hJtnili-Vm, Uni, Ward, Vomit;. A Point of Order. After the supper adjournment, the Alinislei raised a point of order regarding the amendment wh'V' imd benn moved by Mr. Al'Combs dealing with (lie elect ion. of women-. He contended that the. amendment was foreign to I lie Bill under di.-cuss.ion. Tlie House was only concerned with amendments to the. Legislative Council Act. J9l-J;.. and was not dealing with the Lcgislutjire Act, 1908. to. which .Mr. M'C'ombs's proposal applied. -Mr. M'Comljs contended that the House was considering.' amendments of the Legislature Act, in that the Legislative Council Act. 191-1, was read; as a part of the former Act. The Prime Minisler said Ihe Legislative Council' Act dealt "urcly villi the ■ Council, therefore, nothing conneclccT. with the legislature Act coiiLl lie -introduced on a mallei" dealing with the firslmi'iied Act. The Speaker ruled (hat the ' amendment was in order. 'Ihe Bill- was read a third time and passed. © LOCAL BI'LIS. The- Tauranga Borough Council and lauraiiga Harbour '.Hoard Empowering. Bill, Juvercargill ' Borough '. Council Special Hate Empowering Bill, JXapier Harbour Board Loans Enabling Bill, Auckland Institute and Museum Silo Lmpqworing Bill, Xew Plymouth. Borough audi Harbour Board Exchanges Bill, and Uuwa County Hill were each read a third time and passed. Notice was given by the Hon. G. AV. ■Russell to 'introduce the AVairau Kiver Bill, the .Enngilal.T lliver Bill, and theOrai'i and Waihi liivc-r Bill. At-0.55 p.m. .Iho House rose until 2.30 p.m. tu-day.