THE HOUSE

Dominion, Volume 12, Issue 60, 5 December 1918, Page 6

THE HOUSE

The House of Bepresentatives sat at noon. REPATRIATION BILL. Tho Repatriation BiU was introduced by Governor-General's Message and read a first time. POSTAL DEPARTMENT, REMOVING DISCONTENT. SIR JOSEPH WARD (PostmasterGeneral) moved the second reading of the Post and Telegraph Department Bill. He said that for some, years the need for change in the administration of this service had been apparent. One of tho difficulties about classification, which had been in force with respect to the service, was that the upper grades' of the service tended to become crowded. This, existed now in the service, and thero was discontent in consequence. Under existing law there was no possibility of meeting the situation. There were men in the service now who hiul taken •25 years to rise.to a salary of J!260 a year. While at oho time it used to bo said that the Post and Telegraph Service was the best of all tho Government services for the men in it, it was now muoh poorer than the Railway Service, for instance, and lower than all save one-wid that one a email branoh. The Post and Telegraph Department was the biggest in the country, save the Railway Department, and it was a wonderful compliment to the ability of the service that in spite of unsatisfactory conditions the service had earned the commendation or the whole community. Sir Joseph Ward proceeded to explain the Bill, and especially the method of arranging promotions and of getting over' the wrongs brought about by the grading of the service. He said that experience had proved that it was not a good thing for the Department to have trained officers transferred to other branches of the Public Service. So many men had left to take positions at small increases of salary m tho past two or three years with other Departments that the Post and .telegraph Department had been gravely inconvenienced. Trained men must be retained in the service, and given l such pay as would make it worth while to go on striving for advancement within the service, rather than seeking it outside. In future no officer would be transferred unless with the full consent of the head of the Department. In the promotion scheme merit would be one of the greatest considerations. Seniority would also bo considered, but mere seniority, by the automatio system now in force, would not suffice. No request for an appeal board system had been made by the representatives of the service and he was. sure that'if they had desired it they would have asked for it. He believed that the Bill would be' for the benefit of the service and indirectly for the benefit ot the public. The necessity*for the change proposed was absolutely paramount. At present the service was discontented and disaffected, and the best work could not be obtained from men dissatisfied with the condition under which they worked.

The Bill Approved. Mr. J. A. YOUNG (Waikato) said that ho believed that the Bill would allay much of the discontent in the Post and Telegraph service, aad that the men and women in it would Velieve that the Government was doing, "a fair thing tor \Tr H G.'ELL-(Chrietchurch South) said under the Bill the Minister was restoring the Ministerial right to appoint the high officers of the Department, no hoped this right would be extended to other Departments. Mr. A. HARMS (Waitemata) expressed general approval of tho Bill. Mr. J. P. LUKE (Wellington North) said that lie considered that tho Pub ic Service Act was a good piece of legislation but he ngreed that the Minister must have the right to appoint the chief administrative officers of the Department. His experience of the City Council classification scheme whs that thtre were few appeals, and he did not believe that there would be so many appeals in the Post and Telegraph service as would make deep inroads into the time of the members of the Promotion Board arid the Appeal Board. He hoped, that the Minister would add to the board: the chief telegraph engineer, in order that ,the technical branches of the service, .might have proper consideration. On behalf of those members of the service whom he had the honour to represent, he thanked the Minister and the Government in- the Bill. "... Mr. W. A. VEITCH. (Wanganui) said that he considered the Bill a very good one, but he , would suggest one or twoamendments. ' He approved of much of the change proposed in the Bill, and he would like to see the Government apply the same principles to the administration of other great Departments of tho State. . Tha Railway Department, for distance, would be very glad to have such a democratic promotion board, which certainly was a very great improvement in methods of administration. The greatest weakness in the Bill jits the limitation of the matters that might l)c referred to the.Appeal Board. He would suggest that the Bill might bo amended to enable appeal to he made on othp- questions which might arise. .Mr. .6. H. POOLE (Auckland West) expressed pteasiire at the thnt the Bill provided for the reclassification of the Post and Telegraph Department, as it would do away with the mechanical system of the past. Mr. G. R. SYKES (Masterton) considered the Bill a sincere attempt to remove the anomnlies existing in the Post and Telegraph Department, and to/increase the salaries of the officers, addin" that the putting into effect of the provisions of the Bill would go a long, way towards making the service very much more contented. Mr. R. A. WEIGHT congratulated the Postmaster-General on bringing down the Bill,' saying that if the National Government would 'Continue in a like manner in the future it would become exceedingly popular. The problem of promotion was an exceedingly difficult one, but tho Bill went nearer to doing justice than anything that had yet been before the House. Political Influence. Mr. E. NEWMAN (Rangitikei)said it was quite clear that the officers of the Department were at present underpaid, and!he wa3 extiemoly glad-that the 7000 members were to bo placed in a more satisfactory financial position. He regretted, however, that the House was being asked to do away with the Publio Service Commissioners- in on* of the largest of. the State Departments, feeling that the dissatisfaction would'hare been overcome had tho commissioner been allowed to carry out the reclassification now proposed. It was highly important that all causes of discontent within the Public Service should be removed. But it was also important that political influence should be excluded, and he deplored the fact that the Bill was taking the Post and Telegraph Department out of the hands of the Public Service Commissioner. Mr. J. V. BROWN (Napier) psked for full recognition o { the work of women. The rule of. equal nny far equal work ought fa be accepted in the Public Service. Many wopien at pnvpnt were not receiving the. salaries of the men they had renlacp'l. Mr. W. H. FIELD (Otnki) said it appeared Hie question of Post nnd ToJpgraph salaries had been allowed to drift until t ,, ! , 'md been Tea died. The Bill was intended to cure ills that undoubtedly had existed. It met the wishes of the officers in tho service, and as it was satisfactory also from the point of view of tho public the IToue need have no hesitation about pass"llr! 'S. G. SMITH (Taranaki) sns;-' r»st«l tlint Po«t and Telp?r.inh eniplnypps should have th« same right of appeal n' nilwnv sorvnnhs. He can"TntnWed the Minister of Finance on the Bill. The Country Districts. Mr. G. HUNTER (Wainawa) said the officers of tho Po*t nnd Tologrnpli Department, had douo excellent work throughout tho war. They had boon understaffed and overworked-, but tl'o.v had performed their duty most creditably, and he was glad that the Post-master-General had recognised tho neens<it.y of improving conditions v ithin .the Department. It was well known that tho officers of the Department had- been discontented for some years past, nnd that ,tho salaries ought to bo increased substantially.- The Government ought to be the best employer in tho Dominion. Mr. Hunter appealed for increased re-

muneration for the officers in charge of country post offices. Mr. W. NOSWORTHY (Ashburtog -=- munded increased considerate for the postal and telegraph requi™niflits of tho country districts. "Tho <!ity peoplo don't realise the disabilities of the country districts, and they don't want to do so," ho said. SIR JOSEPH WARD, replying after further debate, said that a review of the salaries and fees of non-permanent employees was now being made. A new scalo would be presented shortly. Prior to the war mail contracts had cost on the nvetrage. fifty per rait, less than they cost now. The increased cost was a very big item, and it was impossible to !»ivo the settlers in all cases tho privi- , ' leges they had enjoyed bsfore the war. The Department did its best to serve tlio country people to the fullest possible extent. The Eroneral instruction was tliat. red-tape was to be avoided as far as no«ible. , Sir Josroh Ward, concluding Ins Kfjeeoh. said thr.t. it wn.n orilv fnir thai - I.* should say that when all the staff now absent returned the number of t»innnrwy employees would be reduced. The mitn'object of the BiD was to ennble tho Department to give men promotion, and increased salary, if they wero pnod officers. tfi , nnnounoed also lliat "an imiTovpd initial position" would be proviMikl for married men. T/J , !? Bill was read a second time on the voices, and was committed forthwith. Postal Men With the Army. Mr. Harris ask»d a question about postal men, officers of the Department, ncnv doing duty in army pool offices in England and France. Some men specially requisitioned for this service were given half-pay from the Department in addition to military pay. But other postal men, especially in the early drafts that went to Gallipoli, wero taken out of the ranks, sent to the post offices, and given no extra pay. Mr. Harris wanted to know whether anything was being done for these mon. ' Sir Joseph Ward said that these men who had been drawn from the ranks had already passed from the Postal Service and the Department could not be responsible for the payment of them. Iho other men had been requisitioned tor, and the Department gave them half-pav. They had not gone of their own free will.

The Right of Appeal. Mr E. P. Lee pressed for an enlargement of the right' of appeal of ° Sifj'osoph Ward said that the grounds on -which appeal could bo made would be defined by regulations , Mr. Lee: It ought to be statutory. That what I want. , Sir Joseph Ward: It has always been done by regulation. The Bill was reported with amendments, put through its third reading, and passed. RESTRICTION OF RENT. A DANGEROUS REMEDY. The PEIME MINISTER moved that amendments made by the Council in tho War Legislation and Statute Law Amendment Bill be agreed to. , Discussing the added provision in the Bill giving the dependants of a.soldier power to contract themselves out of tho Sa of the Bill dealing with restr.ction of Tent and eviction. Mr. J. M'COMBS (Lyttelton) said that this was a bad amendment. .It would mean- that every wife would have to contract horsek out of the operation of the clause, in order to get a. house It seemed to him that the only effect of the amendment would bo to lay open soldiers' dependants to es-PkitaUon-hy the landlords of Wellington When the Prime Minister, first brought down his rent [restriction clauses in 1916, he brought down a. good sot of proposals, but ho allowed-them lo be amended until they were of no effect The Prime Minister was proposing to allow the same thing to bo done in this Bill. He moved to disagree with this amendment. . Mr W A. VEITCH (Wanganui) agreed with Mr. M'Combs. He expressed the opinion that the only, safe .and proper course wonld be to make the provisions apulv to all persons renting houses Messrs. J.- A. Young and J. Payne also expressed objection to the Council s an ih n o "PRIME MINISTER said that he would move to disagree with tho amendment The House would, however, hnvo to choose between two evils TVre could be no doubt thnt the effect Of tho Bill n= it left the House would have been that, no soldier or soldier's wife or soldier's- widow would have been able to ret a house at all. Mr. O E.' STATHAM (Dnnedin Central) fiu?BP?M rh?ri» should m a -'•vision that before any person contracted himself or herself out of the protection of the Bill he or she should take advice. Probablv the Labour Depnrtment would be able to give advice. Mr. Parr: They would be doing nothing The amendments, with the ono excpr,tion, were agreed to, and the House <lecided to disagree on the rent restriction clause. THE AVIATION BILL. Amendments made by the Legislative Council in the Aviation Bill were agreed to. ~" REPATRIATION BILL. EXPLANATION OF THE. SCHEME. SIR JAMES ALLEN (Minister of Defence) moved the second reading of the Repatriation Bill, explaining that the purpose of the Bill was to develop'the Discharged Soldiers' Information Department and extend its functions. It had dealt with 28,000 men in the past two years,-but in the next year it would have to deal with 50,000 men. The responsibility for men prior to discharge would still rest with the Defence Department. Tho demobilisation arrangements at Homo would also bo under Defence He would not refer at length to the work done for the soldiers in England. Everything would be done there to occupy the men with such educative classes as would mnke them better fitted to return to civil life. The Expatriation Department would have a very important task to do. The worst"danger was that men on release would be tempted by higher .rates of pay offering to take temporary employment. The aim would bo to let every fit man out of the Army as soon as possible in order that ho might get back into civil life at the earliest possible moment. Every man on discharge would receive a month's leave on. pay and a railway warrant for that period. But this -.vas not all the Government proposed to do for returned men. In,a Bill to be introduced the following day. there wonld be an indication of what the Government would do to recognise length of service. There would he something in the nature of a gratuity for long-service men, and when the other Bill camo down ho would explain what was meant by "gratuity." He went on to deal with the proposed scheme—first of all the control board, with the director, and then the district boards. The' idea of the Government was that these district committees should be representative of the returned soldiers, the national, efficiency committees, employers, labour unions, patriotic associations, the Y.M.C.A., the Salvation Army, local education bodies, including tho Workers' Educational Association, the Red Cross, and porhaps other bodies. It would be for the board to determine the constitution of the district committees, but these were some of the present ideae of tho Government. Very largo powers were taken to provide by regulation for the carrying through oi the scheme. Referring to the clause making it possible to cancel the discharge of a soldier for misconduct, the Minister said that there were soldiers who unfortunately were given to drink after their return. Some of thorn may have given way to drink before they went away, and some of them had lost a'certain amount of their self-respect while they ivere away. It seemed to him that it should not bo taken for granted that nothing could bo done for these men. He did not think they should bo sent to civil reformatory institutions. He thought it might be possible by bringing these men back again under military discipline and placing them in special institutions, under carefully selected officers, to restore the self-respect of some of them. Whether tho experiment would succeed or not ho could'not say, but ho thought tho experiment should be tried. These men had served Now Zealand, they had seen and suffered all the horrors of war, and if wo could save somo' of them and to-

store their self-respect we should do it. The object of the Government was to 6piiro 110 money or effort to do the utmost for the returned soldier.. He whs sure thnt Parliament would not grudge any niuount of money required for the purpose. Military Control. Mr. J. T. M. Honisby (U'airarpa) said there was too muck officialdom in the Bill. He had no faith in the military officer when matters of repatriation were concerned. The Director of .Repatriation ought to bo a civilian. Anotner weak point of the Bill was that nearly everything was to bo done by regulation. Tiie district boards would be under the thumb of the military organisation. Sir James Allen: No. Nothing to do with it. Air. Hofusby snid the scheme should be controlled by a body independent of tho military and of the Ministry. Mr. J. V. UIiUWJS' (Napier)" pointed out that under the provisions of the Bill it shirker who had been hultl forcibly in camp on November 12 would be able to take up land under the Government scheme. Mr. H. G. ELL (Chrislcburch South) said that the House ought to review tho pension scale next session, and the Prime Minister and the Minister of Finance ought to, before they left for London, give instructions that preparations should be niiido for this legislation. Practical Advice. Mr. W. DOWNIE STEWART (Dnnedin West) said that tho Bill was belated. He argued that .an organisation should have been developed long ago. Only now, after four j'curs of- war, curative workshops were being equipped at Rotorua. These should have been running two years ago. Disabled soldiers had , oeen compelled to idle their time away, boing entertained by the kind people of Kotorua, and there was nothing nioro disintegrating for the soldier under treatment than lack of occupation. Also men were retarded in their recovery because they were worried about their future. The organisation for repatriation ought to touch these undischarged men. He did not consider the constitution of the Repatriation Board euitablo for tho work tho board would have to do. The proper course would be to make one Minister wholly responsible for repatriation. Ho did not support the genoral objection to a. military man having to do with repatriation. All would depend on the character iVid personality of tho man. In England General Richardson was doing quite extraprdhmry wock in preparation for repatriation. It seemed that the scheme as proposed was elaborate and too cumbersome for easy working. The local boards or committees were to be representative of all kinds of people, and fail , too big to do msoful work. A suggestion lie would offer to the Minister was that tho board should concern itself not only with the discharged sol. dier, but with hie family. Ho feared that the Government huA little idea of what this scheme was going to cost. In Australia the .Government was proposing to spend forty millions on repatriation. ,He considered that the clause making possi'blo the cancellation of a_ soldier's discharge was justified, and might, if used leniently, be used to good effect. The Organisation. The Hon. D. BUDDO (ICaiapoi) said he would not criticise the Bill adversely.' He was conscious of the immensity of the task to be dono, and he hoped that the work would bo well done. Objection had been taken to a board of four Ministers. Ho would suggest that they would not let their work overlap, but would each administer a different branch of the work. His advice to the Minister in regard to local committees would be not to create too many of these committees, and not to insist upon too much centralisation. Tho scheme as. proposed was jiinwieldy. He did not believe in the sub-committee idea. Tho district boards should be sufficient in number to covor tho country fully, tat every district board should have the right to deal direct, with the central board. Sub-committees responsible to a district board would not prove satisfactory.

Not Far Enough. Mr. G. WITTY (Riccarton) did not think that the Bill wont far. enough. He believed the Minister was trying to do his best in regard to the treatment of returned soldiers, but he was glad that he was not on the board. All militaristic methods should be eliminated from the functions of the board. The possession of common sense should be the chief qualification for the Director of Repatriation, who, ho trusted, would not be a military officer. ■ If ho was, however, he hoped he would be a man of commonsense. Members of Parliament should be represented on the local committee;. "Why should they not do some work?" asked Mr. Witty. (Laughter.) The Bill should have been brought down at the beginning of the session instead of Into that night. . What was required was a broadminded liberal board. Mr. R. P. HUDSON (Motueka) said that too much importance could not be attached to the Bill. He was strongly of opinion that a man should be placed on each returning ship to get in touch with the soldiers, and ascertain what were their ideas regarding the future. The Minister.of Defence: That step has already been taken. Mr. Hudson: "I am glad to hear that." Good work was alrehdy being done in the direction of vocational training, and ho hoped that it would be continued. Ho would have preferred to see one Minister in charge of repatriation, with his whole time devoted to the matter, than a board containing four Ministers. Every possible assistance should be rendered to the returning men. Clause 1G of the Bill was a just one, and the general principle of the Bill was right. He congratulated the Minister of Defence on the work he had put into the Bill.

New Era for Returning Men. Mr. W. T. JENNINGS. (Taumarumii) had no objection to a military officer being in charge of the repatriation scheme. He would like to know whether men of New Zealand birth wiio were serving in the Imperial Army would, be able to take advantage of, the provisions of the Bill. He thought the local boards would materially assist in the smooth working of the scheme. In regard to Clause 16,- he wanted to know how a man who had been discharged from military service could be compelled to return to the forces. King's Regulations distinctly laid down that 6uch a practice could not be adopted. The Bill was going to bring about a new era for the returning men, and he congratulated the Minister on having brought it down,

Mr. Q. J. ANDEESON (Mfttaura) said the Bill was in tho right direction. Betnrning soldiers must he prepared to push for themselves, and take advantage of whatever benefits the Bill might provide. Ho did not believe in divided control in respect to the hoards. In that connection ho desired to nay a compliment to the Defence Minister for the firm way in which he had controlled his Department during the war. Had there been a board in charge of Hip Department nothing but confusion would have resulted. Instead of a board of four Ministers administering the sthenic lie thought it would be bettor for n eomnetent business man to bo associated with the Minister. Members of Parliament should also be charged with the duty of assisting in carrying out tho scheme. (Laughter.). Mr. Anderson: "Ifs all very well for members to scoff, but membevs of Parliament aro laughed at nuite enough outsido of Parliament. As far r.s I can »ee members of Parliament are wen who have- been successful in business, and I don't see why they should not be associated with tho administration of the scheme." Tlu> local committep= ehnulfl bo useful in assisting to get soldiers on to the land. He was sorry that the Bill had not been hrowrht down earlier in the session. It ennld then have hrvn referred to a committee, and the advice of members of Parliament sought as to tho various clauses. Divided Control a Mistake. Mr. J. ANSTEY (Wailaki) also considered that it was a mistake to have divided control. II would have been belter for only one Minister to be in char?.? of the ■Repatriation Depnrlmciit. Difficulty might-be experienced in appointing tho board of four Ministers, for by next session the National Government might have dissolved, and another Government might sit in its placo. Members of Parliament might certainly be appointed to servo us ex-officio mcmliers of local committees. Men who had served a long , timo in camp, and had received honour-

able discharges, thuuld have opportunities of taking up land. Up to the preauit provision in thai, respect hail been made only for returned soldiers. The l'l'patt'itiliutt scheme must* bo clear of militarism of every sort. The settlement oi suldicrs isliuuliL be purely a civilian scheme. Air. C. H. STATHAM (Dunedin Central) thought that one Minister should be in charge ol the repatriation of returned soldiers, lietler results would be obtained by thai) inetlud than by having a uuard of lour ilinisiers. The training of discharged soldiers.was a most important protui'm, and it should, receive very close attention. Under the Bill some provision should be made for children of soldiers who have died, or who have been incapacitated.' (Jiear, hear.) He supported the Bill. Mr. 'J'. A. H. JiIDLD (Nelson) said it should bo evident lo tho Minister of Defence that the House was opposed to any system of divided control By estalisning a board of four Ministers. The dependants of Zcalanilei's who enlisted in Knglund should have their pensions brought into line with the pensions obtaining in New Zealand. He quite agreed that a civilian should l.e placed in charge of tho Department, but ■he thought that it tvould be of incalculable benefit lo the returned soldiers if a man liko General Richardson were put in charge. Mr. W. H. HELD (Otaki) also thought that only one Minister should be in charge of the scheme. The man who filled the position of director should be a strong man, but there should also be an advisory board, consisting of representatives of commerce and industry. Something should be done in the way of educating tho soldiers when they were returning on board ship to the D,omiiiipn. He hoped that an increasing number 'of the men would tako up land, whether in large or small areas. Mr. C. J. TALBOT (Temuka) regretted that tho Bill was purely a framework. He paid a tribute to the work of the Minister of Defence, and prophesied that as the war receded in tho distance the country would realise moro than ever how well Sir Jamee Allen had done his work. It was to be regretted, however, that more had not been done for wounded men, concerning whom the Government were too often lato in the day. Somo of this, no doubt, had been duo to the dual control in force until recently, and, personally, he feared that the fourfold control suggested under the repatriation scheme would not be satisfactory. He urged tire Minister lo consider the desirability of giving a maternitv bonus to the wives of returned men. llr. J. M'COMBS (Lyttelton) agreed tluit the subject was the most important that had come up for discussion during the session, but said that the small Bill of 18 clauses fell far short of requirements. (Left Sitting.)