THE HOUSE

Dominion, Volume 12, Issue 59, 4 December 1918, Page 6

THE HOUSE

t The House of Eepresentatives'met at 12 Boon. ..: ■ . I: The Native Land Amendment Bill (the jHon. A. T. Ngata) was'introduced, and read. a.first time. [i The Slaughtering Inspection Bill (the Hon. AV. D.' S. Mac Donald) was introduced -without notice, read a first time, read.a, second time, pro forma, and referred to the Agricultural and Stock .Committee. i CRIMES ACT AMENDMENT BILL. 'The Crimes Act Amendment Bill, which gives a right of appeal'from sentences passed by the Supreme Court, was committed. I Mr. E. M'Callum ■(Wairau) moved an amendment providing that the Court of 'Appeal, in dealing wih an appeal against a sentence, should' not have power to 'increase the .sentence. The Bill gave [the power to pass any other sentence, pvhether _mqre or less severe, in sub,6titutibn'for th"6 original sentence. : The Minister said the Court of Appeal teh'ould'iiave power to make the punishment fit the crime. The Judges could ibe trusted with tho power proposed ■to be given tliem. , A prisoner whose senitence was too short would not appeal. i: The amendment was rejected by 37 ;.votes to 7. ! The Minister moved a new section pro'viding that tho Prisons Board should have the power at any tiino to consider .the case of any prisoner. The Act 'of last year provided that the board 'might consider the releaso on probation \oi "any prisoner undergoing a sentence ;exceeding two years. ■ Mr. M'Callum protested that it was ■not right to give the Chief Justice, sit|tin» as chairman of the Prisons Board, ■such 'wide powers. ! The amendment was adopted, and the ißill was read a third time, and passed. I '■■■■. .THE LICENSING BILL j,SECOND READING DEBATE i THE COMPENSATION QUESTION. : The PIUME MINISTER moved the ißecond reading of the Licensing Bill. He ■said that members would agree with him 'that for some years past there had been I a feeling among public men and among ■ the people generally that something [should be done, if possible, to bring to 1 an end the unceasing unrest that they 'had all and that most of ■them believed to exist on account of tho [control of the liquor traffic;* being too ! closely connected with the politics of |_the country. This unrest existed not i'nieroly at the time of a 'Parliamentary Selection, but right through tho Parliaiinentary period. There was no subject :}n which members of Parliament took I more interest and no' subject that causied more feeling than anything connected : with tho licensing laws of the Dominion. The' Government would like to sei euro some finality. ■: Mr. Massey reminded the House that ' at the close of the 1917 session lie mentioned the Government's intention of .making an effort to secure a settlement pi the liquor controversy.. The Bill, he enid, represented tho effort of the Government to dischnrge the promise iniule [at that time. Whether or not the Bill I would reach the Statute Book he wn.s jnot.abloto say. Each member of tho j House would have his individual .responsibility, and the final responsibility iiiuJt !rest with Parliament as a whole. Since .the opening of the session the Ciovern- | ment had received several large petitions and many importnnt topresentnjtions with regard to the Bill. First, tlio (Prohibition Party presented a petition .'bearing 242,000 signatures, asking that a .poll should be taken in November or i December of the present year on the proIposal made by the National Efficiency I Board for immediate Prohibition witb 'compensation. The experts had advised ' that it •would not be practicable to take

the poll before- April of next' year, owing to the extent of the arrangements that ■had to be made, and the later date was mentioned in the Bill. Mr.■ E. M'Callum. (Wairau): AVhich roll? Mr. Massey: Tho old roll. I was in hopo wo would bo able to use the new roll, but it has been pointed out to mo that 'it would bo exceedingly awkwardin the event of another by-election coniin;j along. The old roll naist be used. What Should be Paid? Tho Prime Minister read the recommendations made by 'he National Miliciency Board. He-stated that the board's original estimate of tho amount required to be paid to tho trade in compensation had been i 1,000,000, but subsequently the board increased the estimate to £4,500,000. The buard believed that tho total compensation, as assessed by competent and independent tribunals, ivoiiltt not exceed .£4,500,000. There war. a rise ■under tho existing law that the trad* would he wiped out altogether without any compensation at nil after four yearsnotice. The Efficiency Board was ot opinion that the payment of two years profits would be sufficient* compensation in respect of the termination of trade. The Bill did not place any limit on the amount of compensation to be paid. It was quite impossible to .fix a limit. But the Government did not believe that the total compensation would exceed •£4,500,000. Members: There should be- a limit. Sir. Jlassey: That is a matter which members have to consider for themselves. AVe say that the amount ot compensation will " be approximately .£4,500,000, but if it happens to bo more, the amount in excess will Ijc a liability of the State, and will have to he met. A second petition, added Mr. Jlassey, had come from the representatives ot tho liquor trade. It had been signed by 308,000 persons, and it had asked for a referendum at the time of the general election on thre-; issues—Continuance, State Control, and Prohibition—with a majority of the total votes recorded required to carry nny one of the three issues. A third petition had come from the Labour Party. It had asked for a referendum on f'J'.ir 'ssues-Continuance, Prohibition with compensation, Prohibition without compensation, and State Control—with preferential voting, in order to secure majority rule. This petition had been signed by 1850 persons. A member: Onlv 1850? Mr. Massey: "That is the number '1 have got. It is a rather small number." Then a. communication had been received from representative business men, supporting the Efficiency Board's proposal. Between 700 and 800 signatures had been attached, and it was stated that 1000 would have been secured but for tho influenza epidemic. Deputations h:d waited upon tlie Ministers from the business men, the- Prohibitionists, the liquor trade, the chartered clubs; and the Moderate League. AH these.deputations, representing widely divergent views, bad expressed themselves in a reasonable and businesslike way. . Assessing the Payments. ■Referring again to the question of compensation, the Prime Minister said that doubt had been expressed whether a sum of: .£4,500,000 would nrovide sufficient compensation for the businesses that would be brought to an end in the event of Prohibition V.eing carried. Figures bearing upon this point had been prepared by a thoroughly competent accountant, a man of high, standing, and the Government thought these figures could be accepted as fairly accurate. The accountant estimated Mint the compensation would amount to ,£3,691,666, the chief items ' being:—Breweries, ■£375,000; hotels, JWIG.GOG; termination /of trade, <£I,400,000; wincuiakers, ■£100,000; employees, .£IOO,OOO. The Bill provided that the compensation in the case of breweries and hotels was to be not more than one-half of the freehold value as shown in the books of the Valuation Department, and members were aware that Government valuations were seldom equal to the soiling value. The payment for termination of trade was limited to two years' profits based on income -tax returns. The total value of the trade was estimated at from ,£10,000,000 to ,£11,000,000, but the provision of the Bill relating to Prohibition with compensation did not propose to buy out the trade. It merely provided compensation for termination of business. The total value of the trade would have to be dealt with in the event pf State' control being adopted under .. the later provisions of tho Bill. If the Government paid ,£10,000,000 for the trade, it would have an asset to represent that sum. The purchase would include all goodwill. In conclusion, Mr. Massey said that members would see the. Bill was exceedingly well drafted. There was no difficulty about understanding it, and members would know exactly what they'were doing. He.luiew that many members wero not satisfied with the Bill, ami that some people outside the House wore not sntisned with it, and would be disappointed if it were passed into law. On the other li.mil ho was' convinced, and the signatures to the petitions had proved, that there was a very stron* body of public opinion in favour of reform of the liquor traffic. Reform had sot to come, whatever the House did with the present Bill. The public would ivMst upon reform of the liquor traffic. The object of the Bill was to promote as far as possible true temperance reform and tnio temperance sentiment without interfering nny more than was necessary with the liberty and social habits of the people of the Dominion. A Blank Cheque? Jlr. E. P. LEE (Oaniani) said that the Bill was the outcome of a very strong demand from the people that the present licensing system should not be allowed to continue. . He did not think there would have been a Bill but for tho strongly supported ■ petition demanding a poll on the question. For long Prohibitionists had opposed the payment of compensation, but they wero jiow content to pay four and' a half million pounds. But in the Bill there was no limit placed on the amount of compensation. The. Prime Minister had stated that it was not possible to limit tho amount, meaning, perhaps, (hat this was beyond the capacity of the National Government. It would then devolve on members of the House to fix a limit, and in Committee he would move with that' object. The Prime Minister had given the House an estimate, based on calculations, of ,£3,800,000 as the amount which could be given. They had had experience of Compensation Courts, and most of them erred on tho side of liberality. If there should be objection to the limitation to four and a half millions it could convey only one indication—a probability that when nil the claims wero ascertained the sum total would be over four and a half millions. Ho would not be prepared to give the Government a blank cheque.. It was possibly a clover ruso of tho trade, to leave tho amount of compensation blank, because it would be open to them in tho campaign to alarm the people about the prospects of heavy compensation beyond the stated amount of four and a half millions, and so make people unwilling to vote Prohibition. A Different Story. How different was the story now from that given to the House in 1910. In that year the House was told that in order to protect the country from the loss of .£70(1,000 a\ year of revenue, the licenses would have to be continued for four years after .the carrying of Prohibition. Now the people wero being told that tho country could afford not only to do without tho revenue, but to borrow four ami a half millions of money to pay for nothing in return. The Government had gone bevond tho recommendations of tho National Efficiency Board. It had suggested that tho issue of State purchase, committing the expenditure of a sum not limited at all—for the limit of ten mil-lions-borrowing authority was not a limit of tho amount to be ultimately paid far the purchase of all trade interests. The Government would need min.'h money for returned soldiers, for the dr-vt-lopm-.it of wiiter-power, and other big enterprises. When members asked for money for these purposes they were warned lhat they must go slow. 'It was a different matter now when a proposal was made to buy nut the interests of the tradt-. Jlr- considered that he had made out a good cms" for tin , limitation of the compensation to an amount nearly a million" over Ihe estimate furnished to the House by tim Prime Minister. Ah to the constitution of the Assessment Court, why was it provided that one or the two assessors was to be a trado

representative, whilo tlioro was no provisions that the , other representative should be * representative of the petitioners asking for Hie Bill? It was a trade clause, mid manifestly unjust, lie understood (hat the Bill was not to bo considered n party measure, and no ob.-tw.-ic should lie raised to the improvciiio.it «i i,'ie Bill in tlu manner hi- had mI. Kis opinion was that no (.ioveriitn >ni could survive, if it opposed the people m this inntter. Mr. Witty Disapproves. Mr. 0. Wl't'TV (Hiecarton) said thai he agreed that there should bu reform of the liquor traffic, hut it appeared that liis idea of reform was to protect the people against getting "stuff" which was not good. As samples of the peoples who did without liquor he mentioned the Turks and the Russians after the abolition of vodka, his point, being that the "dry" nations did not furnish examples to be followed. An lion, member: What about America? Mr. AVitty: Oh, America hasn't tried it much yet. The lion, member: Oh, yes it has. Mr. AVitty said that the Government, when it had no money for schools, and when returned soldiers were goi'i? about starving, proposed to spend ,£10,0(10 or ,£SO 000 on a referendum when another vote would have to ba taken some months afterwards. This earn-in? of Prohibition would raise a "nation of sneaks" through people trying to net stuff that was contraband. ' The Efficiency Board had declared for this scheme, but while- they put one thiiis; on paper they "did the other thin* themselves, ,, Mr. Isitt: They are not teetotallers. Mr. AVitty: No. Mr. T«it.t: Hear, hear. That is so. Mr. AVittyt But some of them gammon they arc though! Air. Tiitt: Nonsense! ■Mr. AVitty: "Oh. ves, thev do. I've wen with them."" (Lsv.irhter.) Ho went on to speak of the difficulty and expense of (jettinir the soldiers' votes. Ho protested that it was nonsense to prohibt a man from making wine for his own use. On the other hnnd he said, "If you want Prohibition, have Prohibition." And ho went on to say that if liquor was to be kept out it should not bo permitted foT medicinal, sacramental, or any other nurpose. A good Christian could take ■ a Sacrament in water and he just as good a Christian. Also the sale of medicinal alcohol would let the chemists' shops deal in it. and there would be abuses. He did not believe in the referendum; it was "the sheet-anchor- of the shuffler." He would oppose the Bill. To Kill the Bill. Mr. E. M'CALLUM (Wniriui) expressed the" strongest disapproval of Prohibition as a solution of the liquor problem. One of the reasons why he objected to the Bill, was that it Ihe state of affaire by which the. Moderatesam ong whom he counted himself—were made "a chopping-block between the liquor trade and the Prohibitionists," whom he described as "a party of cranks." His advice to the trade was to take four and a half millions. Not that he approved of Prohibition or compensation, ne accounted it a, proposal to disrupt the peonle. destroy their social habits. It would be following the faddists. He admitted thai he felt a little bit like "Rip van AA'inkle. Another piece of advice he gave to the Government was to hold the referendum, if referendum there must, be, at the usual time for the taking of the vote. Hβ could not believe that arrangements could bo made for taking the vote of the soldiers. He made other proposals for reform of the liauor traffic which, he contended, would bring about, improvement in tiie trade without such unnecessary measures as were then proposed. His scheme had to do' with the control and issuing of licenses, and the prevention of trafficing in licenses, the "tying" of houses, and such-like abuses-of the trade as earripd on at present. He moved as an amendment that the Bill be read that day six months.

Mr. J. PAYNE (Grey Lynn) opposed (he Bill. One of his reasons was that the abolition of the traffic would throw n lot of unskilled workers out of employment and that this floodin? of Hie market with such labour would make the lot of the returning soldier harder. He was in favour of State control, and not in fiivour of fanatical measures. It should be possible- to devise reforms which would do away with the present abuses of the trade. Impossible to Fix Limit. 'Mr. W. DOWME fiTEWA'RT (Dunedin West) said that the Bill was the result of it demand from a large number of the people. It was quite true that the amount of compensation was not limited by the Bill, but no one, without examining the claims as the Courts would have to do, could say what the total amount would bu. How could the member for Oamaru say that the total should not exceed four and a half millions? Mr. Lee: It's all I would give them. Mr. Stewart said that all any Bill could do was to detino the principles on "which compensation could be assessed. It would be proper to suggesramendment of the method of assessment, but not to attempt to fix a limit. He did not wholly approve of a Magistrate being chairman of the Compensation Court., He would not agree to determination now of a limit of compensation. Mr. Parr: Then you ask the public to sign a blank cheque? Mr. Stewart: If the public like to do tint then it is their responsibility. Mr. Parr: "We know exactly what the public would do in those circumstances. Mr. Stewart said that tho second part of the. Bill, dealiv.g with the holding of the poll in December next was unnecessary at the present stage because there would ban .session of Parliament between the taking of the special ballot in April and t'lo ballot at the general election. But lie objected to the second part of the Bill for the reason that no issue should bo put to the people which allowed of injustice io individuals. Hβ considered it unfair <b put to the public the issue of Prohibition without compensation. He considered i>l=o that there should be a system of referential voting for the ballot on the Ihree issues. Opponents of the Bill. Mr. K, P. HUDSON (Motueka) said the anti-shouting law Jiad eft'cetwl an important improvement in the conditions of the liquor traffic. He did not approve of the bare majority in connection with licensing polls, since it would not provide stable conditions. The time was not opportune for a huge expenditure, on tho abolition of the liquor traffic, and ho considered that Prohibition on the terms proposed would be a great mistake.' Mr. W. T. JENNINGS (Taumarunui) asked if residents of the King Country would have the right to vote. Hβ did not approve of {he abolition of liquor, which was used in moderation and with enjoyment by many of the best workers and, most intellectual men. Mr. J. G. ANDIiIiSON (Mataura) said it would be tho greatest folly to postpone the Bill. The House should go ahead and throw the Bill out. The sis o'clock closing law ought to be made permanent. _ Dr. TIIACKER (Christchurch East) spoke of the virtues of moderation and equanimity, and condemned the Bill as being highly controversial. The Bill was being pushed through with indecent haste by the Prohibitionists, who were trying to use the war to win their ideal. Dr. Thacker suggested that the people who voted for Prohibition should be required to pay two-thirds of the total compensation. ' "An Exceedingly Bad Bill." Dr. A. K. NEWMAN (Wellington East) snid neither sido of tho House hiid any affection for the Bill. Personally ho regarded it as an exceedingly bad bill, and he would vote to kill it, though he did not believo it would be lulled, lie had always opposed compensation, ino Bill was a measure designed to provide money for tho wealthy publican and the opulent brewer. Ho had approved of tfio payment of £1,500,000 for the him abolition of tho Trade, but the Bill did not limit the compensation to that sum. State control on tho terms proposed had no appeal to him. Tho Stale controlled tho trndo in a dozen ways already, and now the peoplo were to bo given a chanco to make the browers and publicans servants of the State at the cost of ten millions. No Hiich proposal should be made nt the present time. He would support in Committee an amendment that the amount of compensation should be definitely limited to .£1,500,000. Dr Newman said tho Bill represented the ill-assorted views of various parties. The rights ot tho trade had received far more consideration than tho rights of the peoplo.

Tho proposed courts of assessment were not suitable bodies to adjust claims for compensation, mill the people, would not get a fair run against a trade, represented by the best legal talent money could employ. Ho agreed that national efficiency was enormously reduced by drink and that the abolition of the traffic was in the interests of tho whole country. The Minister of Finance. SIR JOSE I'll WAKD (.Minister of Finance) said that the last speaker had not given much assistance to the Government or the lluuse. The Bill proposed to take away from tho trade the right to continue for four years after the carrying of Prohibition. That was a big concession, and had to he recognised in the discussion of the question of compensation- ■ The trade would be quite content to havo tho existing law retained unaltered. But it had made suggestions for reform. The. Government could not fail to give head to the great petitions that had been presented. The Bill gave tho people the right by a bare majority to decide next April whether or not they would have National Prohibition with compensation. That iyas a clear-cut issue. He agreed that there should be a limit to the amount of compensation to be paid. But the limit must not be within the amount that would be awarded by the assessment brairds on the basis laid down in the Bill.. The limit should bt tjcjonn the four and a half millions. He would not mind going beyond (hat to the extent of a million in fixing the limit. Members: N'o! No! The Minister said he assumed the Efficiency .i'foard had some definite data to proceed upon when it mentioned .£4,501),000 as Iho amount of compensation. Rut. there must be a margin of safety when the limit was fixed. The present fession was being hurried owing to causes quite beyond the control of the Government and the House. He did not believe any member would want a Licensing Bill at the next session, on the evo of a general election. The House ought to try to reach some conclusion on the present Bill. The responsibility proposed to be placed on the Government was a very large one. The amount of compensation to be paid was heavy, and the loss of Customs and excise revenue would be serious. But the issues ought to be faced and settled. The Bill was a well-prepared measure., and :t presented clear issues. A piecemeal bleeding cf (he trade was going on already, and if persisted in it would ruin the. trade. He wanted to see the whole question settled by a definite vote of the people. "Given as a Bribs." Sir. J. M'COMBS (Lyttelton) began this way: "The Bill is characteristic of the National Government, which is too weak to give a lead on this or any other question." He enumerated a number of objections to the Bill, and stated his own opinion that other issues besides Hint asked for by the Alliance should bs submitted at the special poll to be taken under the first part of the Bill. Referring to the petitions—tho one from (he alliance and the other from the trade—he said that it whs idle to rofor to_ them as of equal weight. On some pages of the trade petition were scores of .illeged signatures in the same writing. He opposed altogether the proposal to pay compensation to. the trade. An hotelkceper was granted a license for one year, and for one year only, and if a man was allowed to use his license for tho full term he had no claim whatever for compensation. An lion, member: Why did (he alliance agree to pay compensation? Mr. Sl'Combs: Because the New Zealand alliance knows that the (rado is well represented in this House, and the alliance had to bribe- the trade in ordor to get the Bill through." He said ho would try to get amendments made in the Bill,' and if not successful would i vote for the Bill in order to secure the best possible terms for the alliance. Mr. SV. NOSWORTHY (Ashburton) said that in tho years ho had been in the House, he had never posed as a Prohibitionist, but be had always, in politics, given the benefit of the doubt to Prohibition as against the trade. Ho was, however, strongly opposed to compensation, particularly if given not for justice but as a bribe. The trade had had a phenomenal run, hiul made millions out of the country. But Ihe country could not make itself liable to pay ten or twenty millions to the trade. Ho would prefer (o have seen the Government storing down a proposal for a utraisht-out vote without compensation. He would certainly vote for amendments to be proposed in the Bill. Sir. C. E. STATHAM (Dunedin Central) said he would be prepared to vote for the compensation in the Bill >f a limit were set. It would be wrong to put an issue to the people which would make possible nn unlimited expenditure. He would vote for a limit of 4J millions. Ho would also vote for this poll being taken on a bare majority. He had always previously voted for the tbree-ntlns majority,' but that was on another issue —Prohibition without compensation.

Labour Supports the Bill. Mr. P. FRASER (Wellington Cental) said that the Bill boro a deep impress ot compromise. He said. Hint the Labour Party's policy was to trust tlie people. The "National Government would not trust the. people. Tf the issues were openly and fairly put to the people the people would settle ,the question, .tie spoke on the methods of, assessment of compensation, asking for equal treatment for nil classes of trade employees. He <lid not believe, as some people professed to believe, that the abolition of liquor wcnld moan the end of all social and economic problems. Those who thought this would have a rude awakening. The most advanced people in the Labour movement were almost always total abstainers. And in a. strike it most often happened that strike-breakers were recruited from those who were drinkersmen who would do anything to get drink. He believed that Prohibition would help the workers to achieve their ends. Members of the Labour Party in the Itouso would assist in the passage of the Bui, and would endeavour to improve it. Amendment Defeated. At 8.50 p.m. a division was taken on Mr. jrCallnni's amendment (to defer the Bill for six months). The amendment was defeated by 54 votes to 9. Following was the division "For the amendment (!)): Brown, Colv:n. Jennings, A K. Newman. Penrce, Tt. W. Smith, Witty, Thacker, M'Cnllum. Against (54): Allen, Anderson, Anstoy, Bollard, Buddo, Carroll. Cranio, Dickie, •T. M. Biekson, Ell, T. Field. AV. IT. Field, Forbes, 1 , . Fraser, Sir AVillinin Fraser, Gnlhrie, Hanan, Harris, Herries, Hornsby. Hudson, Hunter, Isilt, Lee, Luke, 'M'Onmbs, MaeDonold, Malcolm, Marnier, Mosscv, Myers, E. Newman, Ngata, Nnsworthv, Parr, Payne, Poole, T. AV. Rhodes, Unssell. Scotf, S. G. Smith, Statliiim, Stewart. Rykps, Tnlbot, Thomson, l 7 ru, Witch, Walker, Ward, AVilford, Wilkinson, Wright, Young. Mr, Massey in Reply. The. PRIME MINISTER rose to reply in the debate directly after the division was taken. He said that tTie majority was pome evidence that in spite of nil the adverse criticism there must be something very good in the Hill, after all. Some members had found much fault, with the lack of nil provision for a limit. There was uo limit in the Kill, mid it was not possible for the Government to fix a limit for Ibis or any other .expenditure. If the Government wanted to buy n piere of land no limit could be fixed by Parliament on the price to be paid. A sum was voted, nnd if it did not suffice more money had to bo provided. An hon. member: You would be purchasing nn asset. That won't do on this occasion. Mr. Massey said that the member for Kiccnrton had accused tho Government of shirking an election. He (Mr. lln«soy) could remember , when on another occasion early in the war the honourable member opposed I he then Government, nnd objected to the holding of an election in 11)17. In rciilv to an 1 honourable member, he said thai the people of the King Country would have a right to vole, but there would be no possibility of any licensed houses bein;,' Opened in the King Country by this or any other Bill. It had hr-Pii said that tho Bill was « trade lifll. Was it a pood thing for the trade to have the principle of bare majority established? The bare majority I ad been introduced, and it had come to ftay. (Hear, hear.) Was that good for the trade? Dr. Newman: Yes, if they get enough money. Mr. Masaoy said a suggestion had been

made that the friends of the trade in the Housa iliad been bribed with 0:1,500,000. Sir. Sl'Callmn: We moderates think so. (Laughter.) Sir. Masfcy said that lit had often noticed the honourable member voting in support of Hie trade, but lie would not think of sus»csliiiK Hiat he would be inlhienced by' the vniing of money, lie believed that there- was not a member in the House who would take, a bribe in connection with this or any other matter. Second Reading Carried. The second reading division was taken at n.15 p.m., and it was agreed to by 55 votes t<> 3. Tht division was,the same as on 'the amendment, with the exception that Mr. Jennings changed over and voted for the Bill. The Limit Accepted. In Committee Sir. Lee gave notice to move that a limit to the amount of four and half millions be set on the amount of compensation to be paid. The Prime Minister said that ho believed the amount of four and a half millions would be ample, but that the amendment, if insisted upon, would jeopardise the Bill. After the supper adjournment, however, Sir. Slassev said that he would accept Sir. Lee's amendment, and it was agreed to on the voices. Mr. *W. A. Veitch said (hat one of the (roubles in assessing (he value of licenses was that they were being sold for a mere bagatelle—far less than their real value. He would support the Bill, but, lie realised that there was no justice in the payment of compensation. Tins value for which money was to be paid was all created by the snli of licenses too cheaply. He had long ago urged that licenses should be sold by auction or by tender. Hard Words. Sir. SPCallum asked the Slinister how it was proposed to find the money for the payment of the four and a half millions, and the interest on it. Ho was interested as a representative of tiie people who would have to pay the piper. The money would have to bo found by the email farmer and the worker, and not by the agitator. "Not by the agitator from Auckland West," he said, looking down at his neighbour, Sir. Poole, who had murmured some comment. "These agitators," Sir. M'Calluni went on) "who make their living by julling the public." Sir. Poole (sotto voce): You're a rotten tod. The Chairman called on Sir. Sl'Callum to withdraw his reference to Sir. Poole. Sir. SVitly drew attention to Sir. Poolo's expression, and Sir. Poolo was asked to withdraw. This Sir. Poole did. Sir. SPCallum stated that lie had no intention of blocking the Bill. He realised that the business of the session must be completed. But he had no faith in the members of the National Efficiency Board. They were men with Prohibition proclivities, who desired to help themselves. The first clause of Ihe Bill was passed at 10.20 p.m. The Maori Voters. The Hon. A. Ngata (Eastern Maori) said ho wished to see the Bill provide clearly thot the Maori electors could take part in the referendum. The Bill as drafted might be read to exclude Slaori voters. Sir. Ngata proposed an amendment designed to brinj,' in the Maori voters. The. Prime Slinister said he was not sure the Slaori rolls could be prepared by the date of tho referendum. He suggested that the amendment should be held over for the present. Sir. Ngata accepted this suggestion. Date of the Referendum, Sir. L. St. Isitt (Christchiireli North) asked that the month of the referendum should be changed from April to March. Sir. SJasscy said he would prefer March, but had been advised that April was the earliest practicable month. He suggested that the matter should be left over till the Bill reached the Upper House. Sir. Isitt consented to this suggestion. Tho Compensation Issue, Iti , . W. Nosworlhy (Ashburton) moved to striko out the words "with compensation." Tho effect of the amendment would be to remove the compensation proposal from the Bill. Sir. J. Payne (Grey Lynn) opposed the auiendme.it. The trade interests afffcted by the Bill wero entitled to adequate compensation. > The amendment was rejected by 47 voles to 14. The members who supported the amendment were Messrs. Anderson, 'Alist ey, J. JI. Dickson, P. Fraser, Lee, St' Combs, Uγ. A". K. Newman, Nosworthy, Pearee, Scott, Young, Walker, AVilkinsbn, and Witty. Preferential Voting. When Clause 7 w«s reached, Mr. ,T. M'Combs (Lyttolton) moved an amendment providing for a vote on the four issues favoured by the Labour Party, namely, National Prohibition without compensation, National Ownership with compensation, National Ownership, and National Continuance. The decision was to be by preferential voting, and the amendment provided tho necessary machinery for this method of voting. Sir. M'Combs said he relied upon the progressive members of the House to support him in giving the people an opportunity to record their decision in n democratic way.

Mr. W. A". Veitch (AYnnganui) snpp/irted the amendment. Mr. J. V. Brown (Napier) asked why the Labour Party did not conduct its own elections by means of preferential voting. Mr. Massey said ho could' not accept the amendment. It was far too dnnmV' L. M. Isitt (Christchurch North) said the amendment commended itself to his sympathy and his judgment. But he must, vote against it. because ho could not take any risk of killing tho Bill. The Hon. T. M. Wilford said tho member for Lyttclton. was trying to put into the Bill, which was the result of a compromise, a portion of the platform of the Labour Parly. Did the member think himself justified in ciuUmgoring the whole Bill in order to push his" own particular view? Mr. AVilford added that if he were allowed to, frame a ballot paper lie would have three issues, Prohibition with compensation, State control with compensation, and Continuance, with a bare majority nnd preferential voting on the three issues. But it was impossible for any member to get all his own way on this Bill. Mr. P. Eraser (Wellington Central) reproved Mr. Isitt for not pressing his opinions regardless of consequences. Mr. AV. A. Veitoh eaid that tho Primo Minister, by opposing tlio amendment moved by Mr. M'Combs, had rob.bed the people'of their only opportunity of saving their four and a half millions compensation.- He would strongly oppose the passage of this clauso of the Bill against the will of the majority. Mr. G. Forbes said he would support tfcs amendment believing Hint it was a fair democratic proposal. Mr. H. G. KH said that he had voted for proportional representation for tho Chrislehureh local elections, but tho experience of the system there hml shaken the little fnilh ho had in it. He would rather, for the purposes of this poll, see adhered to ii system which the people really understood. He realised Hint the Bill was a com promise, but no other sort of Bill had a. chanco of getting tli.routrh. A division was taken on the amendment at 11.30 p.m. Tho amendment was defeated by 45 votes to U. Soldiers' Vote. Replying to Mr. G. Hunter, tho Prime Minister said that tho rcpiijations to govern the voting of soldiers abroad would have to he very carefully thought out, because it: is the intention of the Government to give, lo every soldier, wherever situated, an opportunity to vote in this referendum. It would be possible, he hoped, to gel returns by cablegram in order that the result might be announced quickly. The I , rime Minister accepted an amendment, moved by Mr. Lμ (Oamaru), lu Clause 111, making it clenr Dial, in tho event uf National Prohibition being carried there would be no further licensing An amendment moved by Mr. P. "Fra."er (Wellington Central) providing that clerical workers as well as manual workers should bo entitled to compensation was rejected on tho voices.

Limiting Compensation. Sir. Lou (Oaniaru) moved a new proviso (hat if the aggregate, sums awarded Ijy way of compensation exceeded «£-t,500,000, Ihon each of the sinus so awarded liliouUl be reduced pniportiontitely so as l« bring Iho total nniount within •£4,500,000. Mr. Slassey accepted this consequential majority, which was embodied in the Hill. The Three-fifths Majority. Mr. Stiil.ham (Dmiedin Central) divided the House on an amendment proposing to retain the three-lifths majority on the issiu; of Prohibition without compensation. The amendment was lost by •Iβ votes to 8. Those who voted with Sir. Stathani were Messrs. Bollard, Brown, T. A. If. Field, Forbes, Hudson, M'Callum, Ptiyne. Purging the Roll. The Prime Minister moved to add a new clause dealing with the purging; of rolls. The new proposal, that in the event of the Reuistrar sending a registered letter to the address of an elector, and that letter being returned by the Post Office, the Registrar may strike the name off the roll. Hitherto it has been necessary 'before removing a name to prove that the elector does nor reside in some other part of the district. The clause was agreed to. Six O'clock Closing. Mr. C. A. Wilkinson moved a clause to make six o'clock closing; the permanent law of the country. He said that it had proved a great success. The Prime Minister said that he did not think it was proper to press this amendment in this Bill. lie would support six o'clock closing in the proper' place, but not in this Bill. Kis sympathies were with six o'clock closing, and ho believed it was going to stay. The voting on the second reading of the new clause was 27 for and 27 against, and the chairman gave his casting vote in favour of the clause. On the, motion that the clause be added to the Bill the voting was. 28 to 27 in favour of the clause, and six o'clock closing was carried. Following was the division list :— Ayes (23).—Allen, Anderson, Anstey, Biid'do, Oniric, J. M. Dickson, Ell, t. A. H. Field, P. Fraser, Ifanan, Harris, Tsitl, Lee. M'Combs, Marnier. A. K. Isitt, Lee, SPCombs, Slander, Dr. A. K. Pearee, Poole, Sykes, Talbot, Veitch, Walker, Wilkinson, Wright, Young. Noes (27).—Bollard, Brown, Carroll iMvin. Dickie. J. S. Dickson, W. Jl! Field, Forbes, Sir William Fraser, Guthrie, Merries, Homsby, Hudson, Hunter, Lmke Sl'Callum, SlacDonald, Slassey, Myers, Payne, T. W. Rhodes, Scott, S. Ci. Smith, Thomson, Ward, Wilford, Witty. From the previous division Mr. Hαnan was absent. Otherwise the division was the samp. The Bill was reported With amendments, and rend a third time without debate at 0.30 a.m. POST AND TELEGRAPH BILL, The. Post and Telegvnoh Bill was introduced 'by Governor's Message and read a first time. The House rose at 0.3-1 a.m. to meet nt noon to-day.