PARLIAMENT

Dominion, Volume 12, Issue 58, 3 December 1918, Page 5

PARLIAMENT

HOUSING CONDITIONS THE SANITARY DWELLINGS BILL HYDRO-ELECTRIC POWER The Legislative Council mot at 11 a.m. yesterday. The Christ's College Ordinance Amendment Bill passed through, its ueconil .rending, and was referred to a comin'tteo of selection; In the afternoon the Council mot for a few. moments, and then adjourned until 2.30 p.m. to-dny. THE~HOUSE The House of Representatives met at 2.30 p.m. .THE LICENSING BILL. The Licensing Amendment' Bill was introduced by •Governor-General's Message immediately on the sitting of the House. The Bill was read a first time. WELLINGTON MILK SUPPLY. The Wellington. City .Milk Supply Bill (Mr. J. l>. Luke', was introduced and read a first time. THE PEOPLE'S HOUSING CONDITIONS . SANITARY DWELLINGS BILL .. Dr. K. T. J. THACKER, introducing the Sanitary Dwellings Bill, made a speech about the epidemic and the alleged existence of-slums in cities in the Dominion. He suggested that some of the provisions in his Bill would be adopted by the Minister and embodied in ins promised Public' Health Bil'iV The Hon. G. IV. ItUSSELL (Minister of Public Health) said that if the honourable member would forward him a cony of the Bill he would give full consideration to every proposal in it, with ■ a view of embodying all valuable suggestions in the Public Health Bill to be prepared. -Mr. C. H. POOLE (Auckland West) •spoke of the revelations that had come as the result of the epidemic. He considered that the housing problem must now be taken seriously by the, Government, and that the lieatlh; Department would have to be developed and extended. One of his ideas .wns that a million be "invested" in Auckland, a million in Wellington, and large sums in other parts of Sew Zealand in improving the housing of the people. "Shunting" Responsibility. Mr. H. G. ELL (Christchnrch South) said that strenuous efforts were being :nade by the local bodies to "shunt" their responsibilities on to' the State. The city .councils and the governing podiee of smaller towns of the Dominion had not taken advantage of the empowering legislation already on t*o Statute Book by which local aodies could legislate to prevent overcrowding and kindred evils. . M. L. M. ISITT (Christchurch North) said that if the Minister of Public Health was to have the support of the House, a good example must.be set by Government Departments. Jn Christchurch there was a movement by the Health Department to prevent the use. of gas fires in. shops for heating purposes. There was little or no evidence that fires were harmful, but yet the Railway Department persisted in the use'of suction gas engines in Addingfon Workshops, when there was ample eridense'thai these engines were harmful to the men.

' Mr. G. "WITTY (Ricearlon) said that' in respect of sanitation the Government 1 was as much to blame as private people. No doubt landlords and local bodies were, at fault in a'espect of slums, but thn Government schools were dirty, insanitary,, arid out of'''.repair.'' The Government should spend three millions to give the children clean and wholesome conditions af school. A Labour View,; Mr. R ERASER- (Wellington Central). said there was great need for legislation to improve the housing conditions of the people of Wellington, and need for a scheme to deal generally with the whole housing problem, lie was glad that.the Minister proposed, to introduce a Government Bill. The state of filth and lack of sanitation, existing in parts of Wellington was worse than he hud dreamt of previously. His general deduction was. that the private ownership of houses was a complete failure. If someof the natives of Samoa could conic to Wellington Central they would hot be'yery enthusiasrice about coming under New Zealand rule. He ' said that in the recent epidemic fight splendid service had been rendered by the Defence Department. Too much praise could not'be'given to the medical branch of. the Ordnance , . Branch. Mr. Eraser mentioned especially Major-M'Cristall, an officer/ he said, of exceptional organising ability. . In tackling the housing problem in Wellington Central .'a little -tinkering with houses would not do any good. There should be a town-planning survey of Tβ Aro Rat, as if no houses were there at all, and building should be proceeded with on this plan. Auckland's Slums. Dr. A. ■ IC. NEWMAN /Wellington East) Baid that he agreed with mu/Cli of what the member for Wellington Central had said, tat ho resented the attacks made on,Wellington,by Christchurch and Auckland There were far more dirty houses in Auckland than in Wellington. ; Auckland members: "No," and Nonsense." '■ Mr. Payne: Hear, .hear. Ifs quite true. ■Mr. Parr: Absolute nonsgnse. Mr. Payne-: Absolutely true. Dr. Newman: "1 mentioned the fact that on an occasion when 1200 houses were declared unfit for habitation, been usn the council could not build 1200 houses they were.all allowed to remain." As most of tho local bodies were head over ears in debt he would urge th« Government to assist them with £ for £, subsidy. In England, with all its colossal war debt, fifty millions had been voted for the purpose of improving tho housing of the people. But Dr. Newman t insisted that more than improved dwellings was necessary There must be . inspection—at Home the inspectors wero women—to ensure that interiors as well as exteriors were clean. Mr. C. J. PARR (Eden) said that- tho damage was done by allowing landlords and land syndicates to design our towns. What was required was a town-planning which should bo made compulsory and not permissive. This matter of the housing of tho people was at tho root of the whole housing problem. One of the financial difficulties in the way of a rebuilding scheme was tho unwarrantably high price of land all over the Dominion. No man could afford to build Louses for profit. But he hoped that the Government might assist the local bodies with building schemes in tho same way as the Idcitl bodies were assisted by tiie Local Governinineut Board in England. But houses could not bo built on laud in tho cities at upwards of .C2O ii foot. The people must bo taken out into tlio suburbs. Cheap transit was the first thing to lie secured. Spreading the' Population. Mr. R. A. WRIGHT (Wellington Suburbs) said that he attached much importance to the removal of the people from the congested areas in the cities into the suburbs, where there was room for them. If the City Council were allowed to extend tramways out into tho suburbs, even if the tram service should compete with tho railways, something would be done to solve the problem of | housing the people. At present the Government would not allow competition with the railways, but the Government might well waive this restriction. Ho also paid a tribute to thoso people who had, at risk of health and even life, tended tho sick mid dying during the ri'r->iit I'tiidemie. The Hon. J. A. HANAN (Minister of Education) said that until people could be induced to go. out of the congested cities into tho country the evils mentioned would not be overcome. The rein-

edy was to make the country attractive, nn'd induco peoplo to .go out and Uecoino producers. Too many young people were anxious to enter clerical employment in tho cities. Ho feared that too much attention was being given to making Hie towns attractive and not. sufficient tc making tho country attractive. Town and Country Mr. J. PAYNE (Grey Lynn) said, lie thought tho Minister's reply to ■' tho Mayor of Auckland had been very much to tho point. Auckland ought to clean up its dirty slums. It hud as' many slums as any city in New -Zealand,, and tho awful conditions revealed by thoj epidemic- demanded .reform. He congratulated tho Puhlio Health Department on the good work it had done during the epidemic. Tho epidemic had proved the need of a town-planning scheme, and ho considered that the scheme, should be compulsory. The option of takius action should not be left to the local authorities. The effort of the Government and the local • bodies should bo to wove the people out into the country. There would always be many town residents, because a growing country population demanded the facilities offered by the largo centres. But th<v cities could be 6pread out and made healthful. Mr. J. A. YOUNG (Waiknto) said the Slate should have power to resume, at Government valuation, slum areas, in order to rebuild decent and comfortable homes for the peoplo. The Government should propound for the benefit of the municipalities a uniform set of model bylaws. Most of our towns had been laid out by land syndicates and those trafficking in land, purely with .the idea of making profit. Whore that system went on certain areas should bo set aside for the building of decent houses, otherwise means should be provided for acquiring portions of the fronts for tho purpose of building houses on healthful linos. More attention should be paid to the inculcation of hygienic principles amongst tho children of the schools. It was a regrettable thing that the epidemic had shown that many people were ignorant of the principles of simple nursing. Certain subjects could be very well eradicated from the school syllabus with the view of substituting instruction on matters of health. Tho Minister of Public Health: What would you cut out.of the.syllabus? Dr. Thacker: Plasticene. Mr. Payne: Fancy talking about striking out plasticene! Ifs absolutely ridiculous ! Mr, Massoy's Views, The PRIME MINISTER expressed appreciation of the magnificent work done (luring the epidemic by the health workers. Heroism had been displayed equal to any heroism shown on the battlefield. (Hear, hear.) The volunteer workers had risked their lives unselfishly, and many of them had laid downtheir lives. The work of the women in: particular had been heroic in the extreme. The "mudthrowing" that- had taken . place in connection with the epidemic was to be deploTed. "We are all to blame," said Mr. Massey, "and we must all take our share of the blame. I hope that we shall profit by.the lessons of the epidemic and endeavour to prevent anything of the kind coming along in the future." Probably most New Zealand , people had had an idea that their healthy.young country would not suffer from tai epidemic of the kind just experienced. The occurrences of recent weeks had opened their eyes. It was not reasonable to assume, as some people were doing, that. nothing had been done in tho past. The Legislature had given wide powers to the locul authorities, and in many instances these powers had been used with good effect. Unfortunately' there existed in some of the large' centres slum areas that were a disgrace, id tho nation. He hoped to see those slums swept awny .and never suffered to exist again. Town-planning schemes were nofy new to New Zealand. The Government had dealt with townplanning, and had given the local' authorities more power in this respect thaii they had used. Power had been given 1o municipalities and county council to build workers' homes, as well as to safeguard the public health in connection with ordinary housing. The Government itself had provided many homes under the Workers' Dwellings Act and the advances to workers' scheme. A greal deal more ought to be done. The Government's Duty. It was the duty of the Government, added the Prime Minister, (o find cheap money .not only for workers who wished to possess houses, but also for municipal authorities and county . councils which wished to do their duly by providing houses for their workers. He agreed that more should be done to spread tho population. The suburban train services could help, and he hoped to see them fonck to normal in the near future. It clearly was the duty of the Government and the Legislature to do everything it possibly could to provide healthy, comfortable, secure homes for the peonle ,who were not able to provide them for themselves. Leave to introduce the Bin was granted, and it was read n lirst time. ARTERIAL HIGHWAYS. The Arterial Highways Bill (Dr. Thacker) was introduced and read a, first time. AVIATION BILL The Aviation Bill' was put through ! Committee with discussion, read, a third time and passed. BILL PUT THROUGH ALL . STAGES HYDRO-ELECTRIC POWER. I SIR JOSEPH WARD, Minister of Finance, moved the second reading of theElecr trie Power Boards Bill. He said that the Bill conferred upon local authorities the right to produce and sell hydro-electric power in -districts where the Government did not undertake- the work. All necessary safeguards had l>een provided, and the State reserved tho right to resume works nt any time without payment for goodwill. SIR JOSEPH. WARD, after outlining tho , provisions of tho Bill, said ho proposed in committee to strike out the words giving local authorities (he power to act as agents for manufacturers. It did not seem fair to compete with existing agencies <in this way. Ho repeated that tho authority proposed to be given to local bodi»s was fully safeguarded, and the legislation was necessary if water power was to bo made available all over tho Dominion within a reasonable period of years. The wide distribution of hydro-electric power was going to give an enormous impetus to production and industrial dcvclonment in New Zealand. The Money Market. The suggestion had beeii made, said Sir Joseph Ward, that if the local bodies could borrow money for hydro-electric works, tlin Government could do so, and retain full control. But this view did not lake into consideration all the. facts.. The Government would have very heavy financial burdens to bear after (he war, and it was his belief that New Zealand would not, go upon the London money market, as a country, for some years to come. When a Government went to the London money market it was required ns a rulo to issue a discounted loan. But local bodies, borrowing sums of not less than ,£100,001), would be able to use the services of men who wished to obtain brokerage on loans at Homo, and who doubtless would be glad of a chanco to llont Government loans. Ho had been lokl that .£IOO,OOO was the smallest Bum tho financiers cared to arrange for. Mr. J. Crnigie (Tininru): Will the Government guarantee the local bodies loins? Sir Joseph Ward: It is not proposed, and it is imt liivessnry. He believed the local authorities could obtain the money they would require without public flotation of (lie loans. Great Development. Dr. TIIACKHI!. (Christchurch Mast) forecasted enormous development in every direction as soon a? cheap electricity was available throughout New Zealand. Electricity was going to bo used in every phase of the national , life. Mr. E. NEWMAN (Rangiiikei) emphasised the importance nf the scheme. Ho agreed that it was desirable the Government should own all hydro-electric power stations. Bu Ilio Government could not do everything at once, and the local bodies were ready to make rapid progress with tho works. They could pay higher rates of interest than, the

Government could pay. Tho Bill was necessary if the power w;is to bo made iivailablo speedily, and lio.wus satisfied that the public 'interests had been sufficiently safeguarded. Mi , . G. J. ANDBBSON (Mntaura) said that tho basis of the Mill had been laid down by the Southland Expansion League. Local work and local control were necessary in order that, rapid devclopmontl might be effected. He urged the importance of sccu.rin;,' uniform systems and plant throughout the country. Mr. J, P. I.UKE OVolliiiglon North) enid ho realised thai Ihe liovcriimeiit, with its wide' responsibilities and heavy commitments, could, not do full justice to the hydro-electric scheme without' the assistance of the local authorities. The Wellington City Cuuiicil, in years iietore the war, 'had been able to borrow money at tho same rate of interest as the Government, and he believed that time| would come again. A valuable provision of the Bill was that the Government flight resume any works in years to- come. This was a safeguard tfint would be of great value to the community. ■ State Control. Mr. J. PAYNE (Grey Lynn) argued in favour of full Stute control. He considered that, the scheme was not fully considered, and that the Government ought to be bold enough to abandon all piecemeal efforts and prepare for next session a comprehensive scheme of hydroelectric development vnder skilled Government engineers. The Dominion should not sell its birthright or pander to , local ambitions. The Hon. A. NGATA (Eastern Maori) said that lie did not like the till. The perspective.of the Government in launching the Bill was a wrong one. '(he districts that needed most assistance and most development were to be neglected. Tho Government was going to develop water-power for the districts that could afford to make their »wn expenditure. But the v Government said to the outlying districts that they must make their own arrangements, lie considered the Government" might to be able to provide tl\e money for. all the water-power development, " Sir Joseph Ward: That is only a small portion of tho money we want. Mr. Ngata' said if local bodies could raise the monov the Government could do it. Mr. H. G. ELL (Christchurch South) expressed approval of Hie Bill, and said it removed the danger of local authorities attempting the establishment of many small installations. Experts Wanted.' -; Mr. J. ' V. DROWN (Napier) suggested that the proposed local boards might not be competent fo handle the big undertakings proposed. Tf a local .board incurred a loss, the.! districtMvould bo rated to make up the deficit. The consent of the Government was required for the creation of the boards, but Governments had a habit of helping their friends and h,iinperin« their opponents without much regard for public interest. He would nrefer to ppe the Government undertake t); , ? whole of |he work with an expert staff of th? kind that tho Government alo'ne could afford to provide. Local boards, composed of men who almost certainly would have- no technical knowledge, wmild not be the best authorities to control power w-hemes. The Government had tnken the right stand when it hnd rpfusp.d to allow local bodies lo tiiiderrak'o Hip Lnlci; Onloridw scheme. 1 Mr. .T. M'COM'BS'I (Lvilelton) criticised the Bill in some details. He obieplpd to the proposal to empower local bodips to borrow mil spt tin works, nnd to the ratepayers' franchise in raunHps for the election'of members of rloclricnl power boards. This latter, lip declared, was the "Toriest.of Tory principles." He intimated that instead of the ratepayers' franchise in counties hp would move to insert a clause to provide for residential franchise. i

Mr. J. CRAIGIE (Timoni) said lie wonld have to support the Bill, but he thought the Government had showed a lack of enterprise. It should havo nationalised all' water-power resources and carried out the works in a comprehensive way. The Government had greater ability to finance such works, and also belter experts at command than local bodies or syndicates could possibly have. The Minister in Reply. Sir ..Joseph Ward, in reply, said that he would remind members that since the Government first proposed to control all water power there had been J a great war. The public indebtedness ot the Dominion on March 31 last had been over I .£150,000,001), and the interest burden had amounted to =£6,838,000. Another .£15,000,000 would be addod this year for wav expenses, and there would be perhaps J)5,000,00(| for repatriation and many other things. -Mr. Crnigie: Tho local bodies will have to borrow, the money. Sir Joseph Ward said that was true, but the Government had to determine' how much tho Dominion could carry l as public debt. The proposals in the Bill would not have beentoiade if the national burden had not been increased so greatly 'by the war.. Tho taxation had become enormously heavy, and the rate of taxation had got to be reduced now in order I hat the business peoplo of the country might progress. Mr. Craigio: This means increased production. •-!■ Sir Joseph Ward said it was the prudent thing, after the Government had ■done so much to let the local authorities go ahead as far as their resources would let them. The Government was reserving the right to take over all the. hydroelectric works in yearn to come. But just at present it could,'not. undertake the whole development .scheme. It was proposing. , to establish two great stations in tho North Island, in addition, to the station already in existence in the South Island, and 'it could not go further at the present time. If every part of the country was to bo dependent on ihe Government for its supply of power, tiien some districts necessarily would have to wait a long time. Tho delay would not bo in-their interests. Sir Joseph \v.ii\l said ho intended to move a nev chiuse, giving the Government the right' to fix n maximum rato of interest to govern the borrowings of ' local bodies under "> the Bill. The ' Government engineers would sec thai uniformity of system was secured, wich a view to the eventual linking up of all the schemes. But he must insist liial tho Government could not possibly undertake to borrow during the next ic\v years all the millions required for the development of hydro-electric power. Tho Bill was read a second.time, and committed. An Amendment, moved by Mr. J. M'Combs (Lyttolton), proposing to introduce the principle of proportional representation into the election of power boards, was rejected on .the voices. Another amendment, moved by Mr. P. Eraser (Wellington Central), proposing that tho representation of districts should bo dependent on* population alone, and not on population and rateable value, was also rejected on the voices. Tho provision empowering boards to act as agents'for manufacturers of electrical 'goods was deleted, on the Minister's . proposal. The Bill was reported with amendments, road a third- linn , , and passed. CRIMINAL APPEAL. Tho Hon. T. M. WJ.LFOKD (Minister of Justice) moved tho second reading of the Crimes Amendment Bill, a measuro which, he said, would bring our legislation into line with the British and Canadian law. It would provide for a Court of Criminal Appeal. At present every right of appeal was allowed to overy civil litigant in the smallest action for sums of money, but a man convicted of murder had no appeal. By this Bill on every question of law there could be iin appeal. Mr. H. A. WRIGHT (Wellington Suburbs) asked whether the Bill would not make it possible for a wealthy criminal, by successive appeals, to delay punishment for his wrong-doing, or even to defeat the. ends of justice altogether, as had sometimes happened in America. The Hon. T. M. Wilforcl, in reply, paid tiiiit if a wealthy criminal appealed ami failed ho. would have to. pay costs, and would run Ihe risk of having hie santencD increased. Also, he would not be able by demurred and other nioaps to 'delay execution of scnteneo' as was pusriiWtf in America. The Bill whs read a second time. I The House rose at 11.35 p.m. to sit again at noon to-day.