THE COMING PEACE

Dominion, Volume 12, Issue 46, 19 November 1918, Page 7

THE COMING PEACE

FUTURE OF THE GERMAN

COLONIES

AN INTERESTING INTERVIEW

ii 1 interview by .Mr. Percy Allien, M.P., mmm[ ;,, . TlVs Wee £ ly on Isovombcr 20, 1915. It should .be rend with-much interest: just now. In. a foreword to tho article lire cdilor remarks thai* few- men aro better qualified to on colonial policy, „ H( | PS ,, ei .j. colonial policy in than' nir. Hurry Hamilton Johnston, lie has travelled and explored Africa- cast and )V<Mt, north and -south, -while his work ijl command of the scientific expedition to Mount Kilimanjaro, his expedition lo ■Lakes Nyosa awl Tanganyika, which resulted, in'• the' founding'of (he British Central--Africa- Protectorate, and especi-ally-his-work in connection with tho Uganda Protectorate., have wade, his' name famous throughout ihe world. In I 189 D he 1 was Special Commissioner,'■Com-mander-in-Chief, and CoSsul-General for ' the .Uganda Protectorate,, and his brief j vcign of two. years. show's what; can bo 1 d'Jiie by a man who adds lo a knowledge : of. native :]aiigimgc6' imagination, sym-1 •pathy.and courage.' lieu-of such calibre j commend- themselves to the natives underBritish rule,, and arc invaluable for the consolidation of our world empire. The Royal Geographical Society, like many other , learned societies/have conferred upon him their gold medal and his books are authoritative expositions of study and travel which find, a place in .the libraries-of all wjio. are interested' in African problems, . .-. ■ I called (writes Mr. Percy Alden, Jl'.P.') on Sir Harry Johnston lo cbtain from him his views in regard to the .trsat'ment of the German colonial possessions which arc now in our Lauds. ' , "Assuming," he said, "that the Allies are victorious and, are- a'blo to dictato terms or" peace to the Germanic Powers, we shall have to make up our minds jwhat shall be. done with the German oversea, colonies and spheres of. influence. The fate of her Asiatic possessions will be decided by the Allies in council, but you do-not want my opinion on that score'so- much as on: German Africa. Wo must realise that there is still some of the toughest fighting to-be done if tho conquest of German East; Africa is to be achieved, but we -may consider that is only a matter of time. Our difficulties lin that region, with its SW.COO square miles of .area, and ten millions of negroes, have been intensified by the hesitation of . the British- Colonial Office as to tho 'native/' policy it intended to follow. Wo ought to have lot the native chiefs know at tho very outset of the war, through men who' spoke their ... language, that Great Britain; in giving them freedom from the German yoke, would also guarantee them security in' their lands and iiill reasonable rights—repeat, in fact, the jiolicy which controls Uganda. iTho Colonial Office did not do this, and-the result is that we have had to'"fight the ;nalives as well as the Germans. We called, in the Government of India, whicl! Was. a mistake, because its generals knew nothing of the language, aspirations, or prejudices, of the Ara'bs arid negroes, of German East.Africa, and apparently nothing of the geography... If, a Native Intelligence''Department ..had. been organised and the military and civil'officials who lived and worked there closely consulted, we'might have s,.ved much loss i of life. .-,'■■

. "Hut we are not discussing strategy for Iho moment:.only the general policy of conquering and-retaining 'these colonies. My view is. that the Allies should-re-store no coldny—in Africa or elsewhere —to Germany, but should keep them all on the understanding thai we maintain free -trade, and eventually allow the Germans the same commercial opportunities as other people. I would' add also—and in tho same theoretical way—that the incoming of German immigrants should be allowed in these former German colonies. ■They make, as a i-ille/ the best "of citizens the moment they settle down ami recognise that their prosperity is bound up with 'tin?, country in which they live. Look at the splendid human material Germany has contributed to (he United -States, lb'Australia; New Zealand, Canada-, and South Africa. • The descendants' of her I,Bth and 19th century contributions to llie-'populations'of the British Umpire are th<> loyallest among our fel-low'-snbjecls; You cannot write a, chapter of the history of the British Empire —most of all in pioneering work—without introducing a German name. Therefore, theoretically, such a people of fine physique and strong, mentality ought not to' be excluded from peopling the Waste places of the'earth, in the British Empire as elsewhere.. It was parti v. the fear that they might be excluded, 'that their commerce, might bo fettered, that drove.them insane, that created this megalomaniac idea- of themselves 'becoming the .masters of the Old World. The Mad .Dog of.Europe. ■_. "But do not misunderstand me on so . important-, h. point. While I say theoretically that we. must maintain an Empire of Free T'rado after this war is over and while I admit still, that, from a bodily point of view—stamina, vigour, endur ance, patience, and frugal iifdustirv—voiicould not have 'a better colonising stock than the Teutonic- I am sufficiently practical to admit, that their methods of conducting, the war-their very incen tion.oi this war-show them to b e a nation run mad. In tho days before the

Board of Agriculture, took Hie matter in "ami and expunged hydrophobia, I might "He day have been boasting of the. pa--lect disposition and (inn appearance of a ret never dog or a 'mastiff—and a few (lays afterwards have hud to shoot him lor hydrophobia. There would have been, nothing inconsistent in cither action. Jly appreciation of German finalities in assisting to frame our vast Empire (Ides not, prevent me to-day from realising hat. Germany has gone mn.d. has placed herself out of court by her invasion of Belgium and her countless crimes against international law and common humanity. Theoretically 1 would throw open the wliolo Empire—subject, to tho due (reservation of native rights-to Germany ami Austria when the war is over. Practically r should have to admit that Germany has so-acted—witness the murder of N'lirsß C'avell—th'a.t we may have to 'boycott her for the space of a generation to come. It. would bo fatuous to 'expect the Allies (o forgive, and forget what: Germany lias dono and proposes yet to do." Then, you consider we should join with, the other Allies not .merely.', in-, .winning the war'but in punishing Germany in the way which is most open to us, and Hint,'you think; is by absolutely finishing her. ciiwr as an . Em-, piire with foreign possessions mid'colonics under her own flag? And further, that, this form of. punishment would carry, with it substantial guarantees for peace, in ■ future? .' . "1 do. Some have hoped -that'-we might, by means of great victories on land, penetrate into German tearilory and wreak on Germany some of the just • wrath we feel; Afterwards carving up her territory into separate' States-much as :Napoleon did. I much prefer—after we have conquered her (as assuredly-vc •shall)—treating her in the way I describe. Although the portions of AlsaceLorraine that dislike German rule may

rejoin Prance. I should strongly oppose' the alienating from Germany of'Germanspeaking tracts of country against (he will of their inhabitants. 'But you must

remember—and not. repeal the blunder of certain pacifists—that the so-called German colonies are iiot lands in Africa and Asia'populated 'by Germans, but vast

tracts of the tropics with' negro or Asiatic populations' of their own! Most of these lands very unwillingly came under. German domination and will bo most thankful to he transferred to that of Prance, Britain, and Japan, In the very.' sparsely.' populated Sjouth-AVest. Africa there may be-u .few' thousand - white German settlers, but these, if they' 'behave themselves, will remain -under the government-of. tho Union of South

Africa. We should.not'be wronging anyone with local interests if we took .'away ■'from the control of Germany the whole of the German Colonial Empire. GreatBritain u?ver entered on this war'with

n-view to Imperial expansion, but with tho very direct intention of defending fiolgiu.m.nnd France, and. of preventing Russia, from being ■ bottled \ip in the Black Sen and Baltic,, and becoming a mere appanage of German kading houses. Yet—if we conquer—all thesu three regions must come under the same Government, France, and,.Belgium, will have! much to say about the. disposal of the Cameroons Congo;, hut here I would plead for a. small addition to .British Southern Nigeria-in the area of the West Cameroons,' civilised by, the.work of the .British Baptist Mission between . 1808 and ISBS. This region uses English as its trade language and has always bitterly resented being handed over against its will-i.o a harsh German Administration. France will require much of Togolaud for .the-enlargement of her- Uahompan possession. But all .these details can be safely, left to adjustment when the war is over. ~ -.

: -"Whichever way the war enirs you wont find .the Government of the South African Union willing to surrender b'oiith-West-Africa to Germany. ' The South African Government is not likely Jo run any moro risks in this direction. '■Ihey hare had enough'trouble with the rebellion fomented by German gold and iiita-ißiie. There is still a small irrceoncilablo Boer element which might become a great danger,,and therefore the only safe policy is to annex the conquered territory.- Then,, again, -latin* tho question of German New Guinea, the whole of Kaiser Wilhelm'sland and the ismiids adjoining and Samoa cannot be handed 'back .to Germany," became neither. Australia-. nor New Zealandwould consent. How can' they ngii-ee- to allow Germany»to make these islands a naval base' threatening Australasia, which would certainly be her object? The Australian Commonwealth niav have been wise or-unwise in its treatment of native- races in the past, but I'feel sure that it will treat tho imtive races of Now Gumea and' the • Solomon .Islands nud Micronesia with due regard to their I -interests and to -the interests of the whole Empire. In any case thev cannot possibly be expected to release from their control territory which, would certainly be used against them, in the future as soon as Germany grew strong enough," 1 understand tliat you do. not altogether- approve', of. .the: administration of trench Congoland. Can you institute any comparison between the French and the .Germans as colonial administrators? My objections-to the proceedings of the trench concossionnaire companies intrench Congo were (hose to which so much prominence -was given i)jy il,Morel. I am glad to say that the French 'Government, instead' of taking in'ban part Mr. Morel's strictu.ros. made, on no contrary, a ..searching inquiry into tho abuses complained of, nnd the result is that the conditions if native life and land..tenure are much improved. It must be remembered that Mr. Morel was supported in his criticisms .by. noted Ireneh colonial administrators.. Tho rrencli have now thoroughly grasped the principle that it does not pav to be un-si-ru|,ii,ious and to override imtive rights I believe their administration .'of (he whole ot the vast regions of French West Atrica and the French Sudan to be unexceptionable. I say this sincerely,/or i.o time-serving purpose. But I do think that all-the great: colonising nations of Atnca owe Mr. Morel much gratitude tor having had the. courage and persist once to point out the fatuitv and wastefulness and the wide-spreading mischief wrought by a. Leopoldiiui policy in tho Congo basin or elsewhere. May") at tho same time say how we: are indebted to lintish and American missionaries lor rt-hat they have doiio to open our eves' they could never bo bought, and thev were unsuppressable—thauks to our Press of all prat-ties.

Colonising Methods,

..And now- as (o a' comparison beweon German 'colonising' methods and those ot other nations hi Africa. German colonial administration is efficient nothing could bo more admirable than heir interest in public health andsani•lation problems and their pursuit of scientific research. They build well, thev make good roads, they establish law. and order, and there is always justice i\« .between man and man, unbss it happens to be a ease of the white man versus the native, then they sometimes-fail in consideration for-i.ho mtivc. Thev simplified the problem of colonising German Soufh-Vvc-d. Africa by reducing the population of the Ovahe.raro to such an extent that whereas at, one timo Ihere were at least •300,000 of them, new there arc less than 30,000. The French, with the one exception that. T have already noted, make very good colonial administrators. This is shown by tho way jn which the Sene.galcso have been glad to serve in this war, and have 'manifested their- loyal I y over and over again. I have lately' been to Firanee to too and inspect *hesc negto forces, -'ind I was struck with their loyally to the French Government-and the French Administration."

, ?\ow may I come back mice more to the question as to whether it ivdulil be of practical value to our Empire to retain and administer a portion of-the. German, colonial possessions? Is it not likely to-create a permanent barrier of enmity between Germany and t'reat Bri. tain? Will it not mean constant preparations for war, sinco no. one doubls that Germany will desire lo be avenged, jiisl as France wished to be avenged on Germany?

"lly answer is Hint'nothing we can do —now—caii lessen the mac. hatred Germini.v feels for us. Jf we win we shall have her hatred, but not her contempt. If we can't win, we must nm!;o Ihe best terms possible, but they will unly be nnalhcr 'pence of Amiens.' If we do win outright and seek our compensation in thi! Uerinan oversea possessions, I can assure you (hat all the' present German colonies would Ijo a source of ..wealth. It is not advisable for.me to cxpaliatr 011 the. value of their products, but I may mention I hat (here are considerable ureas 'bearing gold, tin, cupper, and coal;

! that palm oil and riiblmr bn be produc--oil in larger quantities; and that there are sonic regions wjiere.focnn. coffee, lea and coflon can be'lrown with great! advantage. .1 am speaking'now, of. course, of Africa. I think you may take it for .grunted that trade with what have! been German, colonies up (6 the present could be immensely increased, and thai whuover ocuupies lliem after this war will find'in litem . a snurce.uf wealth. My view is that Great Britain and her Allies must have some compensation for I heir heavy losses in men,.and -money, and I do not sen where else we are to get anything, silicon defeated Germany will be bankrupt. At the. .fame., time, I once more affirm thai.'apnrl altogether from any material gain, it is essential that we should strike at I lie root-of all those German intrigues against us which havi been going on in the past under tho shelter of the German (lag, and which would continue in the future if wo were fatuous enough lo restore bar footholds in Africaand Asia. Remember that without this war Gcrniauv might have acquired a. colonial empire, of ,2,000,0(10 -square miles.''-. -,•■'■- ;.-=

"How would you propose-to govern these new: territories-arid colonies? A<rc they to-be governed from Downing Street, or would-you grant some form of autonomy to any new .British-possessions? "Where the non-white-man element . predominated my preference would be for Downing Street and for granting by degrees as much home rule i.-.s was pos-. sible, always providing'that the natives had sufficient education to profit by a fair amount of self-government. (I would treat India- in the same way.) Where they are mere savages there is nothing else for it'but to' administer' on their'behalf. But in the case of these new pos- ; sessions that-have c'omo under the control of dniwhler nations like South Africa and Australasia, it is clear that we can exercise only the indirect control of advice tendered by the "Imperial, Government. Our great object should lie in setting up 'these new administrations to see that the natives are properly educated and that their interests are protected. .Downing"Street has its defects, as we all. know, but on the whole, Downing Street administration, so far as the i olives are concerned.'is just, kindly, and efficient. The one exception that I have to make to.this, is the alcohol question. Just as the.many native'tribes have become the prey.of alcohol, despite the feeble precautions of the Imperial authority, so even the whites, are becoming deteriorated and lessened in virility in several Crown Colonies owing to alcoholism being allowed to have full sway in order to ; give sordid profits to a few great, distillery firms. Our administration of South Nigeria, Hie Gold Coast, and the coast strip of Sierra Leone woull lie admirable but for the curse.cif alcohol.' When will the-Colonial Office.deal with this evil 'firmly?-- However, this is, not quite' the subject that you are here to talk to me 'about, and I "only want lo say, in conclusion, that I trust that our policy will more and more be that of education, fairmindedness, and respect for science in" all these "regions inhabited "by native populations subject to'oiir control;' Some day, no doubt, Che'Britisli Empire will consist of a federation', of self-governing communities, although thai is a long'way hence; but there is no; reason why we should not' have slich, a policy and' work towards it very slowly, Before I am • T to catch my train may I make myseif quite clear, on some.point's? f maintain that a pqliey of Free Trade is forced on Hie British Empire as a whole, by the mere circumstance that we rspire. after the war (as before it) to control with 58,000,000 of white people a land area of some 13.000,000-sqnan? miles. If we attempt afterwards to make: a selfish uso of such an area by shutting out the com-, merce and industry of other nations not British, in flag, we run tho '.isle of'greatalliances being formed against us. of incurring on a. large scale the -fate.of Spain and Portugal, when they itbinpled lo shut the rest of Europe out. of the New World and the newly-discovered iregions of Asia-and Africa. Of course, you can ■have tariffs on imports and exports and yet be a Free Trader, if yon mnkc the .tariff apply to all alike. But- if you discriminate fiscally between one people and another, if. you introduce the principle <if differential duties, you introduce what Is an unfair.protection of Hie trade of one. .nation, ov.er that.of another. It is no offence against Free Trade to collect your revenue at the Customs provided (hat revenue is impartially levied on all exporters and importers without, distinction. If tho home people like dean' food and dear.clothes.and dear raw materials for their industries, that is their look out. They' make it up perhaps, by lessening the income lax or sparing themselves other taxes.

"Whether, however, we rhould—and Hie other Allies should—discriminate against the German Emnire is simply a matter of how wo intend to punish tiermany for her crimes (to deter her from sinning again), and what the extent of her punishment'should -be. Myself being of voi<y imperfect clay, T am 'out' for punishment;, and only wish T could see the menus of inflicting it a little, nearer!''