CONSCIENCE IN WAR TIME

Dominion, Volume 11, Issue 248, 8 July 1918, Page 6

CONSCIENCE IN WAR TIME

OBJECTORS TO MILITARY SERVICE SIR JAMES ALLEN STATES i THE POSITION TO LABOUR FEDERATION DEPUTATION Resolutions passed by the conference of the Federation of Labour regarding men who refuse to perform military service, and the allegation that objectors have been ill-treated at tho Wanganui detention barracks, were .placed before the Acting-Prime Minister and Minister of Defence (Sir .fames Allen) on Saturday by representatives of tlio federation. The.Hon. J. T. Paul, in presenting the resolutions, said that the conference felt strongly that the Magisterial inquiry regarding the treatment of conscientious objectors at the Wangamii detention barracks ought to be public. A private inquiry would sot clear up the matter satisfactorily, and it was very desirable from every point of view that the actual facts should be made public. Mr. T. Bloodworth said that tho conference had been unanimously of opinion that the men under detention in the barracks should be allowed to employ counsel when appearing before the Magistrate. The full ventilation of the matter was necessary, and the. employment of counsel would be in the interests of tho objectors, of the persons charged with ill-treating them and of tho general public. Mr. H. Hunter supported the other .two speakers. He said that the conference had been unanimous also in asking for the return to New Zealand of fourteen conscientious objectors who had been sent away forcibly as members of the New Zealand Force?. Sir James Allen, in reply, said he realised that strings had been pulled from more than onn quarter in connection with the Wanganni inquiry, lie wns doing his best to get at the actual facts. A Departmental inquiry hnd been held when ho first heard the alienations of ill-treatment, and subsequently ho hnd ordered a medical inquiry. The reports of both these inquiries had been satisfactory from the. iioint of view of tho Department;; that was to say, their hntl disclosed no finch abuse of authority as hnd been charßed niwinst tho. offiwrs in charge of the barracks. "Then a Mr. Badger, of Chrlstcluirch, came toeee me.' continued the Minister. "His brother.in in the Wanganui detention barracks. I have every respect for Mr. Badger, and I trust him absolutely. He is not a conscientious objector himself, though his brother is, and I think he is one of the Brethren. Ho was granted permission to go there and see his brother privately. His brother made some statements about ill-treatment, which Mr. Badger verbally reported to me, and I asked him to put them in writing. He did so. He told me that, 60 far as he could gather, the story about men having ropes round their hecks was totally untrue. There wae a'report thnt one man had had a rope round his neck." The Hon. S. T. Paul: Is there any difference of opinion as to what constitutes a ropo? Sir James Allen: I don't know. I only tell you what be told mo.. I believe there was a. good deal of exaggeration and nn attempt to influence the public mind. I am not here to have the public mind influenced in un improper way. I believe tho truth will be ascertained by a man of judgment, like a Magistrate, having a perfectly free hand in holding the inquiry. I do not 600 how a. public inquiry can be held. A Magistrate can see them privately and tako their statements, and verify and test their statements to the very fullest. He has been asked to test them to tho very fullest. If these men want to give evidence they can do so. In regard to counsel boing employed, tho Magistrate was asked for hie unbiased opinion. He 6aid he did not think it was necessary for counsel to be engaged, but if he thought it necessary in any case he would allow it. He. has been inBtructed to employ counsel whenever he thinks it necessary. Surely a Magistrate is a judicial individual, uninfluenced by the Government, and if lie thinks counsel should be, .engaged, it will bo engaged. I think that i 6 the proper method of dealing with the subject, and that by that menus we shall got at the truth. The report of tho Magistrate will be made public. The Hon. J. T. Paul: Is there any .truth in the statement that some of these men have been sent to other centres for tho purpose of burking inquiry? Sir James Allen: No; as far as I know. If they have been sent away they will be sent back to Wanganui, or the Magistrate- will visit them. I have left it in his hands. Exaggerated Statements. As to those men who have gone to the front there has been a good deal of exaggeration. I secured some time ago a report about each of them, and I published it in the papers and printed and circulated it. Some of tho mothers havo been saying that (hey have had no word of their boys, and that they are, apparently, not allowed to write. I telegraphed about that, and I said to General B-ichardson that if the regulations prevented these lads writing, he was to secure for me a report about them every throe months, and I would send it to their mothers. There are reports about harsh treatment of these lads at tne front—that they havo had Field Punishment No. 1, which has been called To. New Zealand ears crucifixion" means something moro' than Field Punishment No. 1. I Jbeneve it is tying a. man to a wheel, or something of that sort, if he becomes violent or won't behave himself. I can see no good reason why these men should be brought back, because if they wero brought back it would be an obvious admission that the Government was weakend that it was practically giving wnv to pressure, when it did not think the pressure was justifiable. You are honest men, I believe and I think you want to win the war as much as I or anybody clso does, and you want every citizen to do hie ihity. Some men from conscience, don't think they ought to do their duty, and take' part in this war. i respect their conscience as tar as a man can, ami you will givo men credit that when' (he legislation was gmn ? throughl attempted to make some provision dealing with the conscientious objector, but you know what the. feolinc of Parliament was as well ; l6 1 do and though I gave tho lead (though I am determined nobody shall escape his duty I believe in a conscience), they mnde the legislation more severe than I suggested I want to carry out the law as Parliament made it, and the more 1 see of it now Hie more must I confess that the jiMl.ifinenf of Parliament has :i »nod deal to justify it. 1 know men who on the plea, of conscience arc shirking their duty. They are deliberate and defiant objectors. I know it. I have seen them and questioned (l\cm. There arc some moil who, rightly or wrongly, have a conscionco which dictates to them their aclions. I'think that conscience is on a bad foundation, but they are honest. Hon. J. T. Paul: It governs their ac(Hins. Discrimination Difficult, Sir James Allen: Yw, there is that. And it. may be possible for us lo show some sort of discrimination, but the dilliciiity is in disonmimitinpr. It is so hard lo judge. You havo i.o'evidence of a man's conscience, except, perhaps, his previous life. Of I hut, generally, you havo some evident. 11 , lie Ijplnii.es ' to a sect we ;i!!ow the rriijii'i.iii'; .ibjcclor to go into civilian work. Ciinsck'iiiknis objeoturs were oift.'p'd nov-niiiilwUint service. T cannot timlC'iM.v.'d how iha most ;\gid objector can object io noii-coiubat-■inl service—saving liCo. not inking it. (.ioiiiff back lo (hi , fourteen men who were sent away, I believe they have hi"! iireal hardship* to endure—hardships at. {lie hands of i'leir (•'•■lγ. , .-. , !:"! more llian from anybody fl —: ""■* y 'i.r.i- had hurri , - .':!ii)is to endure bran , ':• Hu'y would not. obey the law, as aii.vlv iy must, if lie won't, obi.'.v the law. May 1 not ask you if (heir hardship- ar , i:i ••n:y way to he compared io tho mw: who go inlo Iho trenches nil I he year trouiid, unil who light for them and for us? 1 can't see what these fellows con object lo so long as they have not to go and face what the

other fellows have to face in tho trenches. These conscientious objectore are living in safety in New Zealand. I can't see tho logic of it. Yo\i know that on many occasions in Parliament I did what I could about the conscientious objector. I am not speaking in any way with a n feeling of prejudice. The more' I see of u it the less do I feel I hat Parliament was wrong when it mad-} the legislation pretty stiff. .1 nm sorry I cannot see my way to agree with you. I hope tha't what 1 have said may lei..:! you to see that there are some arguments on the other side.