CASE OF P. C. WEBB

Dominion, Volume 11, Issue 175, 13 April 1918, Page 11

CASE OF P. C. WEBB

SOCIALISTS PROTEST LAW MUST NOT BE RESPECTER OF PERSONS STRAIGHT TALK BY MR. MASSEY . A protest against the imprisonment of P. 0. Webb, M.P., and an appeal for his release, was made by a deputation representing. Labour organisations which waited 011 Ministers yesterday. The Ministers present wero tho flight Hon. W. F. Massey, Sir Joseph Ward, Sir .Tames Allen, and the Hon. T. M. Wilford. Mr. Walker, M.P., introducing tho deputation, said that, it represented 50,000 trado unionists in the large centres of the Dominion. Mr. O'Brien said that lie .'.poko for the eleotors of Grey, as well as for his union. He laid before Mr. Massey tho resolutions carried unanimously at a public meeting held at Greymouth on Saturday. He wished to call the attention of tho Government to t-orae other facts. One was that Mi'. Webb had been deprived ol' Ills right to carry out his Parliamentary duties not only for the people of Grey, but for the people of Wostland. When Mr. Seddon went to the war it was generally understood that other members would look after the affairs of the electorate, and Mr. Webb had been doing a considerable amount of work in the electorate. Furthermore, they had studied the question of conscription of members of Parliament, and nowhere .in tho world could they find that members of Parliament had .been conscripted. Mr. Massey: Aro you quite sure of that? ~

Mr. O'Brien: "As far as we can discover that, is tho fact." Ho went on to say that the'only member of Parliament who had been sent to prison was Liebkneclit of-Germany, and oven ho (bad boon allowed, wlhilo still _ a prisoner, to tako his placo in Parliament. What the Request Was. Mr. Hiram Hunter said that on behalf of tli© National Government ho was there to support the resolution ,of. tho electors of Grey. As far as. he oould understand tho feeling of tho .workers of Now Zealand, it was tliat they wero surprised at tho action of the Government • .through their Military. Service Board in calling upon a member of Parliament as they had done. This was a democratic couutry. livery, adult had a right to vote, and the only way they could give expression to their political views was through members of Parliament whom thoy chose' At tho election. These peoplo when they' exercised their votes aid have the quostion under consideration.They were led to believe a,t the time of the election that* tho voluntary system wa3 to bo perseverod with. If all members of Parliament wero in tho First Division, and all of military age, where would the democracy of New Zealand be? It would be practically in" tho position of an autocracy like Prussia

Mr. Massey: Now. don't talk nonsense, please 1 ' Mr. Hunter persisted with his reducio lad aibsurdum argument. Ho said that in England riiombcrs of Parliament had not been compelled-to go to tho firing line. Mr. Massey: "Over 100 members of tho Britisli Parliament have g<me to the front. . . He propounded this

question to Mr. Hunter— I "Are ou suggesting that Sir. Wobb .shoald be .liberated altogether, or simply for tho purpose of attending this session-of-Par-liament?" - \ Mr. Hunter:' That is what, we are asking; -; '- . ';• Mr. Massey: The latter? Mr. Hunter : Yes: : ; Mr. Massey: Then, as" won as "tlio session came to an , end' Mr. Webb would be returned to prison ? Mir .Hunter: Well, we-niightliave-—-Mr. Huutcr was at a loss; and Mr. Holland came to" liis resou'e. Mr. Holland said: Wo are not re-

questing thafc'hfl be sent back' to gaol. Mr. Masse)': There is another gentleman addressing the chair, Mr. Holland, and my question liira. Absolute Liberation. i Mr. Holland said that his request from tho New Zealand executive of tho Labour Party was that Mr. Webb be absolutely released from (prison. They were emphatic on tho point that Mr. Webb ought nevor to have been put into pl-ison, and this for a number of reasons. First of all, i'o man should have beou put into prison for objecting to military service. Anotlier reason was that the vast majority of tile people of this country woro in opposition to tho Military Fervico Act. Mr. Masaey: I don't believe a word of it.

Mr. Holland: The way to find out is to take a poll on it. Mr. Massey: Tho' people's representatives are in the Hou69 to-day, and I know .what their feeling is. Mr. Holland: "But "it is quite possible that the New Zealand Parliament would have been-'differently constituted

if this question had been before the eleotors. Wo challenge you to put it to the vote of the people now. Give us a vote on this matter, and the fullest right to discuss the whole situation as it exists, and I 'think you will find that the answer will be two or three to one against you. About Members of Parliament. "No member of Parliament in Britain has been forced to, the front. I think that in Franoe members of Parliament have been conscripted."

Mr. Massey: Has any member of tho British Parliament refused to go to the frontp

Mr. Holland: "I know of no member of the British Parliament, opposed to military service wlio has been called upon to go to the front, ... The British Government takes a much broader view of this question than our Government in New Zealand." Mt. Holland charged tho Government withhaving taken action to exempt some seotions of the community, mentioning Marist Brothers and clergymen. This Mr. Massey denied. Mr. Holland said that the imprisonment of Mr. Webb had canoed moro strife and dissatisfaction than any other single incident since the war began. He said that Mr. Webb might as well bo released, because he would bo given leave of absence, and lie would receivo j £6 a week for staying in prison. Mr. Massey: That m for Parliament to do. Mr. Holland: But Parliament will do it. Mr. Massey: Parliament has not dono so. Mr. Holland: But I haven't a doubt that Parliament will do it. We tako that as a matter of course. Mr. Hunter made a personal explanation. He had come to support tho, resolution, which was for total release. He thought the point Mr. Massey had been making in the question was whether they would welcomo Mr. Webb's temporary release from prison if they could not have total release.

PRIME MINISTER REPLIES. GOVERNMENT MUST ADMINISTER THE LAW. Mr. Massey said ho wished to state the position briefly, as he saw it. Tho Government's duty was t» administer the law, and the law as made by Parliament was final, llightly or wrongly —rightly in his opinion—Parliament had placed on the Statute Book tho

Military Servico Act. Tli',i;j law applied to every mini of military age m. -New. Zealand, rich or poor.

Mr. Holland: Ivir. Luidkjw, too? Mr. Massey said that tho Government had had nothing to ilo with the exemption of Mr. LaidlaWj and ha would not express an • oaifjion on tho case, 'as to whether the Military Servico Board had made a miisliako or not. Iti should bo stated, however that Mr. Laidlaw was-tha last of thkue brotlMrs. Tho law provided for exemptions, and exemptions had been madp iu favour' of essential industries, 'i'lib law provided for no exemptions'. fo;r members of Purliamont. Before Miv Webb was called up lour members of iParliament, two of them with wives atjcl families, had gono to the front. Tw6 of them ' had been wounded, and one iuid returned crippled by rheumatism.' 'J.no fourth, he was glad to say, was still uiihurt. Mr. "Webb was called up by ballot, and appeal was made for him. So :|ar as ho knew, Mr; Webb's case had'been giv(Ju every consideration by thp board. ] And Mr. Webb was not .exempted. In duo' coitrso Mir.i Webb I went into camp, and he refused' to obej •: orders —refused to do liis duttf. Mr. Webb was reasoned with in camp, but he still refused. There was nothing to bo doue then but to try : .liim by Court-Martial. Was it going to be suggested that tho law should l'o ir respecter of personsi -Mr. Webb went before the military tribunal, amtl; tho trial was open. It was a fair 'tjial. Mr. Holland declared'that thi chairman of tho Court was most 'bliilsed. Mr.'Massey: "I won't discusi that.

I don't agree "with Mr. Holland; we look at. it front different poiiit'B of view. Tlie point I make is tliis--—Are members .of Parliament to be allowed 'to break the. law without being'punished? That is tlio whole question. There will be no exceptions, mads' in favour of/'members of Parliament 'if I oan help it. If a member, of Parliament broaks the law ho must take the consequences. Supposing ' "Supposing Air. Woob had been guilty ol' sumo oliier oife'uce—L don't suggest ihat Iro is that sort of man.-> would you iiav'o como along iiiid ask<v<\ that he bo allowed to go'free?" , , • Mr. Hunter: But hu has not committed a crime. Mr. Slassey: "He has committed an ■ offence. There is no use quibbling about it. Even now there'is a differ-' ence of opinion among legal 1 uthorities \ on the point of whether the offence' constitutes a crime or not. We took the' advice of the Crown Law 1 Office. . . Mr. Massey said that ho denied that Working ; men were' opposed to conscription. He was acquainted with thousands of men who earned ' their bread by the sweat of their brow, and many of them' were very'strongly opposed to what Mr. Webb had done. Disloyalty the Worst Thing. "The.-position is. simply .this," ''said j Mr. Massey in conclusion. ''From my point of view Mr. Webh .has broken, tho law, and, Mr. .Webb must lake the consequences. ' ■ In the case of another i offence 1 take it from you that you' would not ask for his liberation. I say to-day, in the serious position in which tho Empiro is placed, that anything n tho nature of disloyalty is Jihe most serious crime 'of which any 'citizen of ihe Empire can be guilty. i Mr. Head: Mr. Webb, is not disloyal. .. . -. Mr. Massey: He,is in gaol for disiheying tho laws "of tho. country which 10 helped to make. . •Mr. Read: He opposed this.law. _ Mr. Massey: This is. a.matter, which vill have to. go before Parliament. >o far as I am conoerned, ro recomnendation in the way that you BUggest rill come from me. Mr. Holland: So much tho worse for •ou. Mr. Massey: I-am here. as.head of ho .Government whose duty . it is Jo dminister"'the,-law faithfully" and invmrtially; arid\T,h'avo no sympathy "for ,ny symptom of disloyalty; t.n the. part if any member of the community. '.