MR. P. C. WEBB, M.P.

Dominion, Volume 11, Issue 152, 16 March 1918, Page 8

MR. P. C. WEBB, M.P.

TRIED BY COURT-MARTIAL PROCEEDINGS AT TRENTHAM CAMP LENGTHY ADDRESS TO THE COURT

A district court-martial sat at Trentham Damp at 11.30 a.m. yesterday to try Private I'. C. Webb (.member for Grey) 011 a charge of disobeying a luwiul order. 'Die court consisted of Major 1). W. Talbot (president), Captain A. L. Gray, and Captain J. I' 1 . Bennett. Colonel C. E. Macdonald, Chief Infantry Instructor, appeared as judge-advocate, and Lieutenant G. Galloway as prosecutor. Private Webb was charged under Section 9 of tho Army Act witli "disobeying in such a manner as to show wilful deliance of authority a lawful command given personally hy his superior officer in the execution of his office, in that he, at Trentham Camp, 011 the 11th day of March, 1918, when personally ordered to take his issue of kit, refused." In answer to the question of Colonel Macdonald, Private Webb said that be had no counsel. He did not object to the constitution of the oourt. He objected, however, to the soldier who was toi take the official shorthand report, on the ground that the_ man did not possess a certificate. His experience of shorthand reporters, he said, led him to object to his speeches being reported. by amateurs. The court announced that it would overrule the objection, but Colonel Macdonald suggested that it should be allowed, and the court accepted this suggestion, and adjourned until 1 p.m. in "order that a certificated reporter might be secured. When the court resumed, a reporter was' still unavailable. The court decided to proceed with the taking of the evidence, which could be recorded in longhand, and to take prisoner's statement later. The charge was rea-3 to the accused, who pleaded guilty. Colonel' Macdonald explained that if the accused pleaded guilty, the court would have no option but to find him guilty, and his address could be given then onlv in mitigation of punishment. If the accused wished to put forward justification for disobeying orders, he had tatter plead not guilty. Accused said he intended to plead justification, and the court recorded a plea of not guilty. Refuses to Take His Kit. Lieutenant Galloway said the facts of the case "were simple. Private Webb had been called up by ballot and had automatically become u member of the New Zealand Expeditionary Forces. He entered camp on March 11, and was allotted his kit. Lieutenant 0. U Tlioilias ordered him to take his kit. Private Webb refused to take it, .ind persisted in this refusal. . Lieutenant 0. G. Thomas gave> evideuce as to the refusal of Private \Vebb to take his kit when definitely ordered to do so. , Sergeant C. G. Carey gave corroborative evidence. The evidence of the two witnesses closed the case for the prosecution. •Vccused said lie did not wish to yjvß evidence or to call witnesses. He desired to make a statement to the court. There was still no qualified crucial shorthand writer present. Tlib piesident of the court explained that 111vate Webb had 110 right to claim a rull shorthand report. The court wself would take down what it regarded a a relevant in the statement. But the court wished to meet accused s wishes as far as possible, and would adjourn the proceedings again for an Hour to enable a shorthand writer to. to St When the court resumed at 2.30 pro. a private, who had a knowledge j>f shorthand, had been secured. Accused said he would have pre erred an experienced reporter, but he would not raise further objections. private Webb's Address. Private Webb opened'his address by thanking the military authorities tor their treatment of him, and expressing appreciation of the assistance and advice given bim by Colonel Macdonald The onarge brought aga-inst him, ho 'said, was a serious one. It ivas quite clear that if tho care had been brought before a general court-martial ho would have been liable to sentence of death. The district court-martial had power only to inflict sentence of imprisonment for two years, but, toe court could recommend a case to be brought before a general court-mar-tl Colonel Macdonald explained that the convening authority had referred the case to a. district court-martial, and could not_ now refer it to a general court-martial. • . Accused: 111 that case my life is Bn The president: I understand the accused wishes to make it dear hat he is prepared to lay down his life tor his convictions. "Compelled by Prinoiple." Accused proceeded to say that he had been .compelled by principle to refuse to obey orders. He had repeatedly protested against men in civil life, whether they were political, or conscientious objectors, being tried by court-martial. He questioned the iudicial capacity of military °® c^ r . s * If a man was to be tried, he should not be brought before men whose> political or military judgment was the stand he took up. Law should reflect the collective judgment of the people, and he wished to question the Lv under which he was charged. Hie conscription law had been passed about twelve months after the last general C ' ? The president : said these remarks had no bearing 011 tho case. Censoription issue. Private Webb said he hoped to make it clear why he had taken the stop of refusing to' obey orders. At the general election practically every candidate had been opposed to conscription. But soon after Parliament met tho two main parties joined together and passed a law which violated their election Pl Maior Talbot said the court was concerned only with the charge The accused was coins far bejond the charge. Private Webb said he did not admit he had committed any breach of the moral law of the country, the conscription law had been nassed without the mandate of the people, and he had been denied the right to criticise the Government. He had asked the Government to consult.the people by means of a referendum, as in Australia, where the people had rejected conscription. Colonel Macdonald said he did not think tho court wanted an argument about conscription. Private Webb , said if he had erred in opposing conscription he had erred in good company. He considered his attitude towards conscription had much to do with his appearance there today. Accused was proceeding to refer to Canadian politics when the president said he must deal with matters relevant to the charge. Accused said that at the time of the Boer war the present Prime Minister of Britain had been opposed to the war and to the Government. Major Talbot: "Circumstances alter cases. We are dealing with a world war on this occasion." What other

people had done in the past had nothing to do with tho case. Left to Represent tho Soldiers. Private Webb went on to state that soldiers who had helped to elect him to Parliament in .1914 had -left liim to represent them and their dependants. The.v had asked him to look after their interests. Major Talbot: Surely you don't consider you are the only man in Parliament capable of seeing that maimed soldiers get justice? Private Webb: "I would not say anything so foolish. I am quite suro if I dronped dead this minute the people of Grey could get a better man to represent them out of the_ Labour movement." Ho had stated his willingness to obey the will of his constituency. He was willing to go to tho front if his constituents said so. But no request of the kind had come. He had registered his protest against tho evil things done during the war. Major Talbot: By whom? By the Germans? Private Webb: "By some people who are equally as had as tho Germans when they pile up war profits while •the people who pav these war nrpfits aro being exploited." He had not annealed against military service His constituency had appealed for him. The Militarv Service Board rejected his appeal. Then he resigned in's seat. He realised his constituents ought to he represented in Parliament lissome person a hie t.o work for them. Many soldiers of soldiers had signed the petitions asking for his exemption. Then he. had been asked to recontest the seat. He had said that if defeated he would take that, as evidence that the electors. wanted him to go to the front, and would ho prepared to join the Mining Corps or the ambulance. But he had been re-elect-ed unopposed. Then his constituents had asked for a rehearing of the appeal, and the. Military Service Board refused. Then a request had bseii made on his behalf for extension of leave to enable him to attend the forthcoming session of Parliament, in order that he might state facts within his knowledge reearding the treatment of returned" soldiers. The board again refused. The court ruled Private Webb out of order when he attempted to traverse the work of the military service boards. Accused said his constituents', appeal had been turned down, but exemption had been granted to the manager of a financial institution 011 the ground that the man represented other people's interests. References to "political influence" were ruled out of order. Private Webb said Parliament had not exempted its own members, but it had given' powe'- to Ministers to declare certain industries essentia]. Ministers had secured exemption for policemen, but not for the men who made the laws. Major Talbrvt said he did not think Parliament could be regarded as esfential. The men at the head of affairs did not need the assistance of every member of Parliament. "Would Co to tho Front if | Private Webb reiterated that he would go to the front, in the ambulance qorps, if told to do so by his constituents. Major Talbot said the people of New Zealand had told him to do _so ithrough the Government. Mr. Webb retorted that he had been eleoted to oppose tho Government. He went on to say lie felt the Government was sending far too many men to the front. New Zealand - had sent more men in proportion to population than Australia or Canada.

Major Talbot: May I suggest our Government sees further than some other Governments and is prepared to save New Zealand for the people of New Zealand? ' '< Private Webb: That is for the people themselves to say. Major Talbot: The Government speaks for Parliament, elected by the people. Private Webb: It was elected on a different issue. Court Has Sufficient Evidence. The accused became involved in argument with the president regarding the war, the ''Yellow Peril," and the employment of women in place of men now in the Army. He spoke of secret diplomacy, and was dealing with the theory of government when the president'stated the court was already in possession of sufficient information to enable it to judge of accused's attitude. Private Webb remarked that conscription established a principle of autocracy <ind despotism. _ • Major Talbot said that in civil Ufo all -three members of the court were ordinary working men, and were quite capable of understanding the points that had been brought forward with regard to Labour. They were also returned soldiers, each having at. least two years' service, and they were quite capable of understanding the feelings of returned eo'diers. The court felt now that sufficient evidence had been adduced to prove, the state of accused s mind with regard to the military crime of which he was accused. Private Webb made some concluding remarks to the effect tiiat his statements in condemnation of tho Government ought to have been allowed in justification of the stand he had taken. He bad acted in accordance with his conscience. He questioned the soundness of military law because of its lack of support throughout tho country. He realised lie had no expectation of consideration, and would suffer the penalty of his disobedience. The wrongs done tu him and others would be remembered on the day of political judgment, when the people dealt with the Government at the polls. The president interrupted with a statement regarding tho Government snd the war. Ho said that if the Empire did not win the war there would be an end to the freedom of Labour members of Parliament and everybody else. If a man took the stand that he himself was of more use to the country in- Parliament than in the place where the Government thought it necessary to send him, he must take the consequences of his attitude. Somo members of Parliament had gone voluntarily into the trenches and had ranged with other members to carry on their work. If Private Webb considered that there was no other man in New Zealand capable of looking after tho interests of "the Grev electors, tVn he was justified in bis attitude. If ho believed that the Government he had been maligning did not contain any man capable of looking after the interests of his constituents, then 115 was justified | in his attitude. Private Webb: In that ca=e I have rood justification. I am mute certain that mv constituents would not allow themselves to be represented by any niemhsr of the Government. • Colonel ' Maodonald: The accused should bo allowed to liialte his statement and only interninted where he has to be stopped. There should be no o+h»r interruption. Private WOWI mar'e 1 W further remarks Mid Mainr Talbot then asked him to conclude. Private Webb repeated that he had served his own conscience and would be prepared to accept the judgment of the people. Colonel Macdonald said that the prosecution had established its case by showing that the order given was a lawful one, that it had been properly given, and that tho accused had refused to obey it. Tho accused had made a very long address, but the points he had made could be brought under two headings. He had appealed 111 justification of his attitude that he was a member of Parliament, ■ and that his services as such were more valuable to the country than they would lie if ho became a member of the Expeditionary

I'\>rce. ffc was only fair to remember in this connection that the accused represented 1 lio Labour Party, and not one of tli'3 other parties. The accused claimed that his constituents shared his opinion. Thou lie stated that the law tinder which he had been called for military service had been made without the people being consulted, and that in his opinion it was contrary to the will of the people. The court was concerned only ivith the law as it stood, and jnust take no notice of opi/iionjs as to what the law should be. The accused hfid admitted his defiance of the law plainly, and the case could be left to the decision of the court. The room was cleared while the court considered its decision. The decision and sentence will be promulgated later.