SEPARATION ALLOWANCES

Dominion, Volume 11, Issue 19, 17 October 1917, Page 6

SEPARATION ALLOWANCES

DEFINITE BATES STATED

WIFE 3/- & CHILD 1/- PER DAY

NO ALTERATIONS TO BE MADE

AN AMENDMENT REJECTED BY 41 TO 13

The new separation allowances the Government propose to give to tho dependants of New Zealand soldiers wero announced by Sir James Allen in tho House of Representatives yesterday afternoon.

On and after January 1 next, he said, first and second lieutenants drawing the pay of their rank only, with wives or guardians of their motherless children, would receivo an allowance of 3s. per day.

The wives of warrant officers, non-com-missioned officers, and men would receivo an allowanco of lis. per day.

A widowed mother dependent on a soldier or invalid lather wlio was a widower and was dependent on the soldier, if the total income apart from allotments received, did not exceed 10s. per week, would bo entitled to an allowance of Is. (id. per day. A child under 1G years of s>go would receive Is. per day. Brothers and sisters u/ndcr 16 years of ago who were dependent 011 the soldier were entitled to an allowance of Is. a day. The Minister stated that under the existing scheme of pay and allowances no provision was mode for the wife ana children of an officer, the pay being considered sufficient. The result was that a warrant officer with a wife and one child who received an allowance was in a better position than a lieutenant with half a dozen children or one child- To remove [ as lar as possible this anomaly it was proposed to grant an allowance to the wife and children of a first or second lieutenant. It was not proposed to grant allowances to the wives and children ot officers of higher rank. The allowance to the wives of warrant officers, non-commissioned officers and men had been increased from 7s. to 21s. per week. Under the present scale of allowances a widowed mother dependent on a soldier received 7s. per week if her income did not exceed 7s. The new proposals flowed a widowed mother, apart from an_ allotment, to receive an old ago pension 01 income of i:2G per year, and also a 10s. 6d. per week allowance. . Mr. Poole: The old ago pension has been increased to 15s. Sir James Allen said ho knew this, but they could not go beyond 10s. it was proposed to raise the allowance for children nnder sixteen from 9d. to Is. a day. An invalid father, a widower, and dependent on a soldier, would bo m the same position as a widowed niotner. This was a new provision. Mr. Malcolm: Is it not an anomaly that if both parents are living neither get anything? . Sir James Allen: That is so; but we cannot avoid all anomalies. The Minister said he was prepared to consider any specific cases. Another new proposal, he said, was the granting of an allowance to brothers and sisters under sixteen years of age dependent upon a soldier. It was proposed to make provision for theni to the same extent as a soldier's child. A membor interjected that there was no allowance for chronic invalid wives or children. The Minister said "No." Ho had been in communication with the Financial Assistance Bonrd 011 the subject, and hoped to make an announcement.

What It Will Cost. Sir James Allen proceeded to give the estimated expenditure at tho proposed new allowance rates, compared with present rates for twelve months from now— that is for the next thirteen reinforcements :— Present New rates. rates. Increase. c£ .£ <£ Wives 301 ,M 0 RS6.COO 525.000 Children 246.000 318,000 72,000 Total 548.000 1,144.000 598.000 Adding the allowances to widowed mothers and brothers and sisters tile totals would he as follow:— Present rates <£558,000 New rates .£1,157,000 Increase 1:599,000 Under the Government's new proposals the total for tlie whole lot was A'l,lo7,(ioU. According to tho Second Division League's proposals, tho total would be J;:!,0t>8,000. The new rates would apply I to the troops who have gone away and : the men in camp from January 1, 1918. ' As regards tho Second Division (marvied men), the new rates would not begin till March next, wli.n the first section (married men without children) would go into camp. His calculations wero not based upon tlie previous re- ' duction of the reinforcement quota, but tho present one. It was therefore based on bedrock figures. lie was not, however, permitted by the Army Council to disclose what the reduced rate would be. The proposal increases would not come into the present financial year. There were no increases in the Estimates for tho next three reinforcements. Tho newrates for wives and children would not come into force until January next, the fourth reinforcement from now. Tho cost then would lie: —■ £ New rate 68,000 Present rate 30,000 Increase 38,000 Fifth Reinforcement. New rate 74,000 Present rate 32,000 Increase 42,000 Sixth Reinforcement: New rote 82,000 Present rate 3G.000 Increase 46,000 Seventh Reinforcement: New rate 00,000 Present rate 39,000 Increase 51,000 Eighth Reinforcement: New rate 98,000 Present rate 43,000 Increase 55,000 Ninth Reinforcement: New rate 108,000 Present rate 48,000 Increase 60,000 Tenth Reinforcement: New rate 118,000 Present rate 53,000 Increase 65,000 What Should be the Standard? Sir James Allen said the whole matter had licon carefully considered. Much as tho Government would like to make better provision, some standard had to be set. The standard minimum decided upon was that the standard should rsot ho that of the well-to-do, but that of the ordinary working man. Under those | minimum rates a soldier would get 355. n week, his wife 2ts„ and his child 7s. Tf n soldier retained for his own use Is. 6d. a day Mr. Payne said that was not enough to buy extra "tucker." Sir James Allen said the letter ho had read the previous day from a sergeant showed that this amount was <|iiitu sufficient. It would be a mistake to givo tho men more, as it might lead them into difficulties if would be better to avoid. General Richardson and other officers said the amount was sufficient. The position of ft soldier and his wife (under the minimum rate) would he as follows:—The soldier would have 355. a week to his own credit; subtracting lOs.ai

6d. for himself, this would leave 21s. 6d. for his wife, which, added to the 21s. allowanco, would give a total of X 2 Es. (id. for (in many cases) a young girl without children.

Mr. Wilford: That? does not apply to tho Second Division.

Sir James Allen: "It is impossible to bring working men, up to tho standard of men earning .£OOO a year." Tho Minister went on to say that thero wero many labouring men 111 the Second Division, and others with .fIOO, X'soo, or many hundreds a year. The Government had tried to do something for the latter, in order to assist their wives ana children to continue to live as they had been accustomed to. The financial assistance scheme was intended to help these mon in the way of rent, mortgages, insurance, etc. Their standard minimum was that of a fairly well paid working man supplemented by help from the Financial Assistance Board.

Discussion in Committee. Answering a question put by Mr. Wiltord, C.ic jL'rime Minister said ho did not propose to place any timo limit on the debate. The House could discuss the matter during the evening if it wished.

! The Houso decided on tho voices to take the discussion on allowances in Committee, in order to give increased i freedom of debate, and divided on the question of whether or not the proceedings should bt reported by Hansard. Tho proposal, made by Mr. llornsbv (Wairarapa), that the debate should bo re- , ported officially was negatived by 42 ; votes to 21.

Mr. Wilford said that tho House was being required to discuss a complex question in a very inconvenient way, Tho regulations had to be trcated'as a whole, whereas a member might disapprove only of a jiart. lie was disappointed with tho allowance of 3s. a day for a wife. The allowance ought to be Gs. a day, so that tiie soldier would not be forced to allot practically all his pay for the maintenance of his family. The children's allowance of Is. a day was also too low. The provision for tho payment of separation allowanco to widowed, dependent parents was too circumscribed. A lather could not get the allowanco unless he was a widower, an invalid, and dependont. The Minister ought to remodel the allowances on lines that bad already been suggested. He hoped Hie Government would not require a motion on tho .subject, since he had no desire at all to embarrass tlie National Ministry.

Not Enough. Mr. J. Payne (Grey Lynn) said the allowances would not be a recurring charge. They would require to be rnec from loan money only during tho war period, and the additional charge involved in the payment of adequate allowances to the wives and dependants would not be a grave addition to the financial burdens of the State. If meinburs did not insist upon adequate payments being mado the responsibility would be theirs. It was shameful for the Government to say that 21s. a week was an adequate allowanco for a wife, and that Is. a day was enough pay for a man to draw at the front.

Mr. J. T. M. nornsby said it wag a reflection npon the Dominion to 6ay that the allowances proposed by the Government were the best the nation could do. The Financial Assistance Board was administering its scheme generously, but tho payments should be made of right, and not by favour of any group of men. Dr. H. T. J. Thacker (Christchurch East) said that the money allowed to soldiers to keep themselves in reasonable comfort at the front was insufficient. They required other diet and other comforts behind the lines, and to procure these things soldiers needed money—more money, than was allowed to them now. The Minister said that tenpence a week was sufficient pocket money for soldiers, but he did not agree with the Minister.

Mr. W. A. Veitch (Wanganui) said that ho had heard nothing to convince him that the allowances demanded by members of the Second Division League were unreasonable. .He refused to accept the statement that the country could not afford to pay more.

Dr. A. IC. Newman (Wellington East) said that wives without children were in a very much better position than the mothers of young children. He would ask the Minister to give some extra consideration to wives with families. He also wished to disagree with the Minister in his statement that the men at the front did not need money. They had to buy many things for their comfort, and they needed'nioney very badly. He did not know why they should bo kept so short of money, especially as they had toiled and slaved for the money. Ho had come round to tli'i view that the Government should take control of the patriotic funds. We should never need money more for the soldiers ilian this year, last year, and next year, and the money couid be put to good use instead of being tied up in investments. He believed the war would finish next year.

More About Figures. Mr. T. M. Wilford (Hutt) said that he had examined the figures given by tho Minister, and he had found that tho allowances to dependants amounted, up to March next, to ,6127,000. Up till July the amount would be <£358,0C0. Previously the Minister had stated that the total cost of increases to December next year would be .£2,037,601; now the Minister said tuat tho total would be .£1,157,000. He. considered that tho conditions attached to the grant of an allowance to the widowed father of a soldier were too stringent. Bofore the man could have an allowance he must be a widower, he must be an invalid, and ho must be dependent. With all tho.se conditions present, surely Is. 6d. a day was not a sufficient allowance. Ho knew the soldier who had told the Minister about the franc a week mess charge being sufficient, and about the clothing o£ the men being good, and he was satisfied that tho "mail was a straight and truthful man whose word could be accepted. Mr. M'Callum: The first man who ever favoured General Godloy. Mr. Wilford: No, the second. Mr. H. Poland (Ohinemuri) said that the real question was whether the allowanccci were as much as this country could afford. He would not accept ilo Minister's statement as to the total cost. He did not agroc with the idea that the married men should, by having to. give up their deferred pay to support their wives, bo in a worse position thsin the sin"lo men whose deferred pay accumulated against their return. Provisions made for financial assistance were valueless No financial assistance would bo granted to tho wife who allowed her husband's deferred pay to remain in the 1 k' l <sir' James Allon said that the last two I speakers had confused actual expenditure and annual liability. The. annual liability, taking account of the reduction in reinforcements, on September 30 next would be .£2,016,015. The .ictiinl payments made between now and the end of September would _ bo as he had stated, .£1,157,000. The Minister said that all the reports reaching liim from Hie frollt a,ul fro ™ rchirn,l| l men went to show that Is. a day was sufficient to covcr a soldier's personal CX JTr! SI j' V. Brown (Napieri said that the allowances were not adequate. Mr. C. E. Stathain said that a soldier should bo in a position to retain for himself 3s. a day. That sum would cover necessary expenses at the front md would enable a man to save a. little

money lor tho day of ili-in,i 1 i>jiiion. The Government oiiglil iii aliow tho married wife wifli children !.>. a day, with Ills. (id. weekly for each child. Then if the husband allotted 2"., the wife with two children would luve a weekly income of JS) .'ls., an amount that could not be regarded as excessive.

Pleas for a Little Merc. Mr. A. H. iliiidinarsh (Wellington South) asked why there should be opposition to the payment of "a fair thing" to tho men returning from the war. Ho disapproved the "repressive methods" adopted by the Prime Minister and I.eld by the Liberal Party. He did not bclfevo that a few shillings more'to children would ruin tho country, and 110 appealed to tho Minister to make oonie slightly larger allowance to Uieni. Mr. E. P. Lee (Oamaru) said he sawno reason why tho allowanco to a child should not be equal to tho pension allowed in respect of a child, and ho would like the Government to increase the allowanco to tUs. a week. Ho did not think 2s. a day was sufficient for a man at the front. The Government might fairly increase tho allowance to the wifo by 10s. a tveek and raise tho child's allowance to 10s. a week. Ho would like to hear somothing from tho Cabinet on, this matter.

Sir 'John Findlaj-: Weren't yui at the caucus this morning?

Mr. Leo: No, I was not. Sir John Findluy: You would have heard everything had you been there. Mr. Lee: Tiiis is tho House; this is where we should havo particulars of this kind about finances." He declared that tho members of the Ministry had maintained a studied silence.

The" Caucus Resolution. Sir John Findlay (Hawke's Bay) said that any member who attended the caucus that morning must be satisfied that the Government had done as much as it dared in giving concessions. They had satisfied him at all ovents that breakingpoint had boen reached, and that wo could not go further without plunging the country in national disaster. Full and frank statements were given by three Ministers, and there were reasons why those statements should not be given openly in the Houso. A certain resolution had been carried at the caucus, which honorably bound every membor present. Mr. L. M. Isitt (Christchurch North) said ho wished to support thu opinions expressed by tbe member for Hawke's Bay. There had been some cheap sneers about: members being "dragooned" and "bullied." That was arrant nonsense. Tho easy way to get popularity was to support the demands of the Second Division men. Ho had been pledged to do as well for the Second Division ns lie could, but he was satisfied now that tho Government could not with safety go farther than it had already gone.

The Dominion's Limit. I Sir Joseph Ward said tne Ministers in | Cabinet had reviewed the whole question oi' allowances in the light oi tno general finances of tho country and the claims made on behalf married men. They had come to the opinion unanimously that tUe Dominion could not go further than it had gone already in its payments to tho soldiers and their dependants. It was simply a question of financial ability. There was a limit to tho burdens that New Zealand could carry. It was easy for members who had not the financial responsibility on their shoulders to make suggestions. But Ministers had to face facts. The Government had to borrow .£28,000,000 within the Dominion this year for war purposes, and the raisins of that huge sum was going to test the capacity of the country to the full. The adding of another million or two was not the light matter some members appeared to imagine. An addition to the allowances payable to wives and children would not bo financially poteiblo. Tho Government had stretched the finances to the utmost in making its original proposals, and additions would put tho country in a very difficult position indeed-. The Second Division's claims meant, the addition of over c£1,000,000 to the proposed expenditure. The raising of that sujji would mean increased taxation, and he wanted the House and the country to realise that the burden of w.ir expenditure would not cease when tho war ended. The interest on tho war debt would have to be paid. Did thfl honourable member for Oamaru wish to suggest that every member of the Government did not wish to bo as generous as possible?

Mr. Lee: I never said such a thingf. I spoke to the contrary.

Sir Joseph Ward: "I accept that statement at once." Ho went on to say that those who asked for an increase of b's. a week in the children's allowances should realise that the Government had stretched to the very limit in the proposals already brought down. A great majority of the members who had been asking for increased allowances had voted .against the tax on tea, made necessary to provide for certain humanitarian proposals of (ho Government. To provide for los 3 of revenue, unforeseen and unprovided for, and for tho increases asked for in pensions and allowances would require at least .■BIOO,OOO a year. If t.he concessions'were all granted there would be a demand not for more pensions but for the repeal of the pensions law. After the war the country could not bear its present load of taxation. Ho recalled the time when there was a demand for tho repeal of the pensions system.

Sir. Payne: That will not happen again.

Sir Joseph Ward said that it was impossible to say what might bo forced upon the Government in.'times of financial stress. if more moneys were required they would have to be obtained by an export tax, by a poll tax, or by Customs dnties. It iras a fact that our Customs duties were falling owing to reduction of imnorts. It was absurd to pro on savin? "Do this, it will only cost 50 much." People had mortgaged* their future to subscribe to the loan, and some had had to borrow to pay their taxes.

An Odious Comparison. Mr. G. Witty (Riccarton) said tlmt tho Minister of Finance was loyal to f.ho Cabinet, loyal to the backbone. His was tho burden of finding tho money. He was far more loyal than the "spendthrifts But for the Minister oi Defence, who had promised far too many men, the present position would r.dt have arisen. Men had been forced out of the country who should not have gone and too many had been allowed to shulflo out of it. Millions of money l.ad been wasted bj; the Minister of Defence. He was _ of opinion that some members of the Second Division wero asking for too much. The Prime Minister. Tho Right Hon. W. F. Massey said that ho could not allow to go unchallenged one statement made by tho last speaker. It was a grossly unfair statement. He had said that the Minister of Defence whs responsible for sending too many men and for wasting millions. He would ask honourable members to think back to tho first eighteen months of the war. What was the position then? The people were clamouring for the Government to qend moro men. Tho Government was not able to take men as quickly as they were offering, and in consequence of tho Government's refusal to tako them very large numbers of our men went to Australia and wont Homo to enlist. When tho Military Service Act was passed, was there a single voice raised to say that too many men were being sent? It was very unfair for a member who had supported everything that had been done by tho Government to indulge in recrimination and endeavour lo place the Defence Minister in a falso position. That was not loyal. What had tho war cost up till the present? Very little short of forty million pounds. And we must look forward. Members had not treated the Government fairly or generously. No other country in the world had been ablo to do so much for its men, and lie was glad that this was so. We must not go too fast in the matter of sending reinforcements, otherwise we would not bo able to keep going. A resolution had been passed at the caucus that morning which indicated that members agreed with tho Government, and it had been carried unanimously. Mr. Anstey: No, that is not so. Mr. Massey: I put the miestio.n and I heard no voice raised for the "noes." Mr. Anstey: I said "No." Mr, Massey: All I can say is that I did' not hear tho honourable gentleman. There were 52 members at the caucus. One member had said that ho would like time to think over it, and Mr.

A nst cy vuloci against il. -o thai 5U volt J lur I lie; resolution.

The Second Division League. Keferenco had been m.'ule to the Second Division. it was not. fair to refer to tlio .Second Uivisian as a whole.

"JJut," hi' saiiT, "1 do say this i>t' the Second Division League—that tlicy are not playing tlio fame. 1 don't think I hat it is right or iair or jironcr for I hose people to come to tliis House and dragoon members as tliey iiavo been doing this last liv.i or tlirco weeks'. The Government ami Parliament will do all that is possible for tile men' going away to fight, bill, this bargaining is not the sort of tiling (hat we expected from men of our own race and of our own country, especially when we remember that 0000 lmirriril men are fighting for us to-day. and that we have not had a word of complaint from any one of them.

Caution Essential. Mr. C. J. Parr (Eden) said ho had guno to the caucus strongly of opinion that tho allowance for children should be increased. But after listening to tho statements of the three leading Jlinistors regarding tho financial position ho had modified his view. The facte placed before tho caucus did not justify alarm, but they proved the need of caution. The scale of allowances proposed by the Minister of Defence was a reasonable attempt to meet the just claims of the married men. He would like to see the allowances to wives and children increased. But lis was bound to accept tho statements of Ministers regarding tho financial position. He realised, moreover, that no married man with children would be required to leave New Zealand before the next session of Parliament. The war prospects and tho financial position would be clearer by that time.

Mr. K. M'Callum (Wairau) said ho felt it would have been a good thing to have admitted the whole House, and not merely the supporters of the National Government, to tho caucus. The members had been dragooned sot by Ministers, but by hard facts. Mr. C. H. Poole (Auckland West) said there was no doubt the Dominion had reached a point where increases in allowances could not bo demanded in reason. Tho financial position could not bo disregarded. The House could not put aside tho considered views of tho men who wero responsible for guiding the destinies of the country.

Mr. W. A. Veitch (Wangaaui) said the House was not entitled to say that it could not afford to do justice to Hie dependants of the soldiers. The liability had been incurred and the question now was who was to bear it, the State or the soldier's wife and children. The dependants of tho men at the front could not afford to make the sacrifices that were being imposed upon thein.

for Children. Mr. .7. A. Anstey (Waitaki) said tl.at in some branches of .Defence administration there had been waste. Ha declared that it was wastrful to continue expenditure on the Territorial system at this time. He would plead for an inoreasc of the children's allowance to 10s. a week. Mr. J. V. Brown (Napier) suggested a special tax on non-combatants to pay tho extra allowances. , / Mr. J. M'Combs (Lyttelton) ridieulcd the idea that there would over be any repudiation of pensions. Tf there \ias to bo any repudiation it would bo of interest on loans and of the loans themselves rather than of pensions. Tho debate was carried on chiefly by tho Labour members.

An Amendment Defeated. At midnight Mr. Payne moved an amendment to the effect that the Regulations be referred back for further consideration. He indicated that lie wisheu the allowances to wives and children increased, and that all allowances should be granted forthwith to wives of married men on service. Tho amendment was defeated by votes to 13, and the motion agreed to on the voicesThe division list was as follows;— > For Amendment (13). Anstey Statham Brown Thacker Fletcher Voitch Hornsby Walker M'Combs Wilford Payno Witty Poland Against Amendment (41). Allen Massey Andejson Myers Bollard Newman, E. Buddo Ngata Buick Nosworthy Craigie Okey Dickson, J. M. Parr Field, T. A. H. Pearce Field, W. H. Poole Fraser 1 Rhodes, K, H. Glover Rhodes, T. W, Guthrie Russell Hanati Soott Harris Smith, G. H. Herdman Tnlboi ; Herries Thomson Hunter Ward tTennings Wilkinson M'Callum Wright MacDomild Young Mander Pairs:—For: Webb and Hindmarsh. Against: Findlay and Colvin.