THE HOUSE

Dominion, Volume 11, Issue 14, 11 October 1917, Page 6

THE HOUSE

.' 7 : The' House of Representatives met at -- Q 30 p.m. ■ Mr.' J. T.M. HORNSBY (Wairarapa) gave notice of the Electoral Boundaries Commission Amendment Bill. f ' WAR PENSIONS RESULTS OF THE CAUCUS ' X A CHARGE AND DENIALS -~~ The Amendments made in the War . Pensions Bill in Committee were agreed -•to: • .~ - ■-■" On the motion for the third reading, . ■A. Mr. J. T. M. HORNSBY (Wairarapa) ■'•' said that he was unable to understand - the volte face of many members of the 'V: , . House. There had been a marked change ■ in the attitude of these members in Com- -"• mittee on' the Bill by comparison with .their attitude on earlier stages of the Bill. There had been a joint caucus or the two chief parties in the House, and something must have happened at t.hi , * meeting.- The liberality of.the English pensions scheme was remarkable. He did jiot think that tho proposals in the Bill . wete so generous, taking all citcum- :' stances into consideration. :'A few days J ego the proposal to increase the widows' pension to the level asked for by the Second Division League was defeated only ; '■': by three votes. On Tuesday night only lleeven members supported league. Mr. Lee: A different question. Mr. Hornsby said that it was the 6ame qnestion. He argued that this, country could afford to do very much more than ■was now offered. A bogey had be.fn rjjis ed—a'.mon of straw to be pulled -to pieces. It was suggested to members that this country could not afford to pay any '.niore— could scarcely afford to Day what was;now proposed.. "Sir," he said, "if we can't pay.these men, let us be honest and don't send thfm. It is dishonest to ask them to go if we are not prepoied ■'•■ to pay them. I don't believe it is necesFary to say that we can't pay them; I believe we can pay." He west on to ■urge that we could raise more revenue by the imposition of a- mortaee tax. -"We'could save in expenditure bv step- I ■pine the purchase of Native lands'for i th« period of the, *iar, or by suspending | - the Territorial system for a few years. I But the best method of all woijd be. by reducing the reinforcements. "A bird has whispered," he said, "that there will be a reduction in reinforcements because the Mother Country does not expect us to drain,our life-blood away." He said that it/would be proper to reduce reinforcements to such a number that we would be able to afford to make proper provision for those left behind., He regretted that there were only seven . members of the House who had voted to srjyejhe widow two guineas a week. ..,•. Mr.-Brown: Oh. no. Don't put it that , way.! fig a sport! Mr. Hornsby repeated his assertion—' that not more than seven men liad voted to increase the widow's pension to two a week. Mr. It. H. Rhodes: They never had a chance. • '. ■ Mr. Hornsby said that he could not lielp it if it was distasteful, but it was ■: a fact. Mr. Anderson: Arrant humbug! Mr. Hornsby said that lie hoped tho House would have got'over its fright ■when the ' allowances were -undor con- ■ eideration. : About "Sincerity." Mr. G. WITTY (Riccarton) said that ■ anyone who did not know the honour- ■ flblo member as the other members of (he • House loiew him- might suppose that he was sincere.. ■ Mr. Hornsby: Just as sincere as you are, and ■ doesn't tell as many lies as .you do. either. Mr. Speaker: Order! Mr. Witty: Never mind, Mr. Speaker, I don't care what he says about mo. : Mr. Speaker ordered the withdrawal of the words. Mr. Hornsby: Very well, Mr. Speaker, I withdraw, out every day the honourable member makes statements thnt are contrary to fact. , > Mr. Witty said that he was just as fluxions as anybody to do justice to men of the Second Division, but lie could not .. go beyond what was fair. He could not Vtnke notice of demands because a pistol was put to his Tiond. Was it to be supposed that the seven men who voted' for higher pensions were the seven wise men In the House, and that all the others were npnentities? These seven had probably voted as they did because they did not know what the difficulties were. He was in agreement with Mr. Hornsby ' that, too many men had been sent, but flic fact remained that the men hrwl been promised, and they were required. It inis all nonsense to say that we could go oitgbeinc; generous without: limit. We must not dry up the sources of taxation. It would I>p possible to impo=e such TTan flint there voi'M be no revenue obtained from it at till. Caution the Watchword. Mr. P. FORBES (Hnrimiii) said that ho /believed there was an honest difference of opinion among members n* to Hie nmount of pension to be awarded. The increase to children n;ould be vpivv much , appreciated. Members who had been at the caucus meetines had ro need to vote in order to indicate to the Government what theii' views were. They had indicated sufficiently nt the meetine without going on to a futile division. ,The financial position was nut before members at. the conference, and as sensible men they .could not after'thnt nree more generosity, however much thor might desire it. They *?pre all disnnpointed (hat tho finnncinl position would not permit of more being siren to the Second Division, but ho

would ask honourable members to remember that before a single , pension could be drawn by any Second Division man or his family there would be another meeting of Parliament, and if tho financial position was then more sound the pensions could be increased.

Mr. D. H. GTJTHME (Oroiia) explained the circumstances under which Mr. Wilford, Mr. Forbes, and himself met the Second Division in conference assembled. It was not iorrect that tliey as a committee of members had made promises to the league that any or all of their demands would be granted by the House. On the contrary, they had had to tell the conference that it was not within the power of a private member to move for increased payments. At Hie caucus meeting members were given information which convinced them that they could' not with safety press for further advances. It would not- bo good policy to ask the Government to increase the pensions to such an extent that the scheme would break down by ita own weight; We must proceed on eound lines. Who could flay that the war would not last for several years yet? Everybody hoped it would not, but it would not be safe to calculate on an early finish to the war. • /

Mr. J. y. BBO'WN (Napier) said that the member for Wairarapa had not acted in a sportsmanlike way in attempting .to belittle the men who had not voted with "the seven." They were as anxious as Mr. Hornsby to do their best for the widows of soldiers, but they could not refuse to take the advice of their Finance Minister, who was' probably the best financier in Australasia. He moved to add tho following clause to the motion: "And that this House is of opinion that the pensions to widows of soldiers as provided by this Act are inadequate." ; Big Figures. '-'SIB JOSEPH WARD (Minister of Finance) said he felt it necessary to epeakon this matter. There was not a man in the House who did not wish to do more for the soldiers and their dependants, but the responsibilities were accumulating, imposing a heavy financial burden on the country. Surely the sensiblo members of the House must have some responsibility to the country as a whole, and they could not always follow the promptings of the heart without tak- | ing any. heed of facts. All the Second Division men were not going away at once, and before they went members would have another and a better opportunity of seeing 'what the position was. The war might be over by that time. What was the amount of money we had taken authority' for? Nearly fifty millions! Wo were now up to forty-six millions; wo should have four millions moro; and by the end' of next July wo should have to provide for August and September. Then if the war went on longer we should have to provide for a great deal more. The amount already' raised in this country was equivalent to ..£2,000,000,000 for Great Britain. > Appeal to Reason. The men who would feel the pinch worst of all if the financial conditions became insecure would be the men earning less than £i per week. The war taxation was bound to reduce the capital worth of- very many people in New Zealand, and unless the bujden of taxation could be reduced after the war tho conditions of employment and the processes of development would suffer. It was not reasonable under such conditions for a member of the House to poso as the advocate of things that the Government, with the responsibility on its shoulders, could not endorse. Members had to recognise that tho financial capacity of tho country had limits. Tho sense of responsibility ought to be as great Tvjth members as with Ministers. Did any' member believe that it was an easy matter or a certain matter to get the millions of money that would be requfreu before, the end of the war? TheDominion had a bounden duty to fulfil all itR undertakings in connection with the war, and. a recognition of that fact must bring caution. New Zealand had now got by far the most generous system of war pensions and allowances the world had yet seen. The annual interest account was .£0,700,000 a year already, and the amount wa* increasing. No change of Government would alter that fact. Tlin war bill..this year was d£3G,700,000, and iE the war continued for another year after the end of this year, at least as much more would be ■ required. Surely in the face of euch figures members should stop theorising and get down to >. hard facts. No member could say the war was jroin? to end within twelve months, and New Zealand must shape its course with the idea that another fyear of war had to be undertaken. To destroy sources of taxation in such circumstances would he an act of slieer insanity. A Government that had tho vital interests of the country at.heart could not yield to a mere impulse to ;court popularity. It innst say plainly to those .who attempted to force the country beyond the limit of safety that the Government would not go further. "Anybody who would move for a general election at this time ought to be hung," added Sir Joseph Ward. "That is my opinion. To have a general election while men are dying at tne front, while sorrow i.s in hundreds of homes, at the very time when j it is necessary to have peace m this I country, would be a crime. The man who wants an election should be hung. I say that without offence." • Amendment in Order. At 10 p.m. Mr. Speaker gave a ruling on a point of order raised by Mr. Massey on Mr. Brown's amendment. Mr. Mnsscy submitted that Hie amendment was olifc v of .order because it was not , cognate with Die original question. Mr. SPEAKER, ruled that, the amendment was in order, but it would have to bo moved in the usual way, and not as nn addition to the motion. Tho original motion was that, the Bill be read a third timo. The amendment would be. that all the words after that be omitted and Hie words of the amendment inserted. . ■ An hon. member: That defeats the Bill altogether. A Likeness to Pecksniff. Mr. L. 11. ISITT (Christohufcli North) said that the speech of the member for 'Wairarapa was the most Pecksniffian utterance he had ever heard in-this House. It was a piece of offensive self-glorifica-tion, a manifest attempt to win the approval of the outside public by gross. misrepresentation of the spirit of the | mon who were associated with him to an j extent in the endeavour to get generous ! treatment for the Second Division. Mr. I Isitt went on to'analyse the speech of the member for Wairarapa, accusing him of many inconsistencies, and flagellating | him soundly. He did not accept tho \ doctrine that because we could'not pay ] men all they asked we should not send them. That was an unsound proposition. The men themselves were fighting not only for the country and the men who stayed at home, but also for' their own liberly and for the freedom and ■safety of their own families. The men were' not fighting only for monetary reward. He admitted that it was the duty of the country to provide as well as possible for the men goins to fight, but responsible members of Parliament rmild not disrPinrd the statements of-the Ministers regarding the financial obligations of the country. It was nil very well to say that tho Ministry should not rule the cnuntrv. but the fact was that the best Government the Hoi" s " ranid have at present wns the existing National Government. They could not be replaced by tho member for Wairarapa nnd'tho menibpr for Grey Lynn. Mr. J. PAYNE (ttrev Lymrt supported tlicimember fur AVairarapa. who. ho said, hanppned tn be "aSnan who thipks for himHf." We protested aprainst the idea of all the House fnl'insr down anjl wnrshinnin» "tin sndi with clay feet." Mr. Payne r>rn"p< , dpd In predict that. the. neople would repudiate Hip payment nf interest nn war loans in the years to come. The men who had fought for the nation would vpfiw to pay interest on the money borrowed for war purposes. A Levy on Wealth? Mr. A. H. HINDMAESH (Wellington South) said that if the Government took one foot of a manN la nit it paid him fnll compensation. What right had the Government to deny full nnnncinl compensah'on to the dependants of the man who gave his life in the service of the nation? The time was coming when the people would refuse to accept the old doctrine that property was more sacred than life. What was required in this country was an immediate census of the wealth of the country, and a levy could bo made on wealth without destroying the country's credit. Mr. Hindmarsh urged

this proposition, us lie liuu urged liic otliers, with much vehemence. Once the member for l'atea ventured to smile at something Mr. Uindniarsh said, whereat Mr. Uindimmih becainu very indignant.

Mr. Penrcii: We lire nol all so t'rightened to go to the w.ar as you are, nor do wo think so much of it. If I was young enough I would be glad to go to-morrow. Mr. Hinduiarsh: It is very well lor the member of Piitea to say that. I can tell by your face that you arc an absolute cur.

An lion, member': Quite right! Mr. Speaker: Order! Tho honourable member must withdraw that. Mr. Hindmarsh: Very well, Mr. Speaker, I do withdraw it. Mr. Koswortl.y said he had heard an honourable member say "Quito right,' and he asked Mr. Speaker to say whether this was permissible. Mr. Speaker made no order, but he said that interjections of this kind were subversive of good order in the House, and that tlioy ought not to go on. Angry Words > The debate became heated about tho hour of midnight. There were rumours from the lobby of a violent quarrel between two members who had disagreed in the Honse earlier in the evening. Then somo angry words passed between Mr. W. T. Jennings (Taumarunui), <\nd Mr. P. C. U'eoD (Grey). "I will dress you down outside," said Mr. Jennings, who added a reference to me fact that Mr. Webb was a First Division man who had mot gone to tho front. Mr. Webb eaid ho would risk his life without hesitation if the people who sent aim fo Parliament desired it. But his constituents had expressed by their votes their desire that he ehould remain here, further friction occurred a little later on when Mr. Veitch .(Wanganui) was speaking. He started off with a reference to file recent caucus. Mr. Okey mado sn interjection to tho effect that Mr. Veit'ob iind been asked to. be present. Mr. Veitch replied that he was addressing the Cfovcrnment and not "some backblock insignificant creature." The Prime Minister intervened at this stage. "I don't know what this House is coming to," lie said, "but something will have to be done to stop i these scenes which are disgracing the' j New Zealand Parliament. I ask memI bers to conduct themselves with decency I and order, nnd not use language caleui lated to provoke a breach of the peace/ l The Speaker said there had been I a very heated debate. He would ask members not to interject when speeches were being madd. Speaking "at 0.25 a.m., the Prime MinI ister said that no information had been ' given to the caucus that had not been I given subsequently to the House. There i should be no misunderstanding on that I point. A. portion of the members of the i House had been encouraged to harass tho Government in every possible way, and the Government had felt it necessary to arrive at an understanding with members. The caucus had been entirely successful in that respect. The Minister of --Defence ' replied, and . Mr. Broivn then withdrew hie amendment, and the third reading of the Bill wns carried on the voices. The House rose at 1.50 a.m.