SECOND DIVISION

Dominion, Volume 11, Issue 3, 28 September 1917, Page 7

SECOND DIVISION

DOMINION CONFERENCE

MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT

'ATTEND

SOME STRAIGHT TALK

A DEPUTATION TO MINISTERS

< -There were about 70 or 75 delegates, [representing some 150 leagues or subleagues of tho National Federation of Second Division Leagues, present at the Dominion Conference hold in tho Masonic Hall yesterday. Mr. R. A. j Armstrong. (president) was in the chair, .supported by Messrs'. A: A. Creamer (and W. It. Brugli (vics-prcsidents). The president'said that tho necessity "for the. conference was obvious to- all. During the last few d:iys it hn'd become appafent that mallei's were coming to '•a head owing to the unsatisfactory answers that were being made to questions by Ministers in Parliament. It was i felt that matters could not be allowed 'to drift so it had. been decided to call a Dominion Conference. Reviewing in brief the history" of the Secoiid Division League, in conjunction with the Government proposals regarding pensions and allowances published that day, the president said'that the Government tad undoubtedly met them oil several points, but not on all. He explained .that members of the House could not "siflove for any increases to votes in any item of the Bill, as'Tt was an appropriation measure. They must ask the Government to reconsider, some of the rates 'which were-quite inadequate. When the, •Bill came before, the House it would prove a test of the value of. democratio representation in the councils, of the State. He moved:— - . : /.. That'this conference of the National Federation, of New Zealaad Second Division Leagues, while expressing its appreciation of the fact that the introduction of the War. Pensions Bill by the Government has placed the league' in the position of knowing . exactly what the Government's proposals are, w^ould. respeptfully but mbst earnestly request the Prime Minister to delay ' the committee . stages of the Bill until- at least this evening's sittings of the House, . -so that conference may have an op- - . portunity of fully examinuig the ! ':. proposals and making, such , represen-. tations to Government as rnay be found necessary beforo the most important stage of the Bill is reached. /. The resolution was seconded by Mr. , G.' Dash, and carried unanimously. The resolution was at once sent up .to the Ministry. ; Mr, Armstrong said the-arrangements iwhich had been made by the Government for Second Division men were, largely t'he T6sult of the work of the league, and he .read a. letter from the. Minister of Defence respecting medical- examination, which indicated clearly that 'the league was responsible for the State taking up :its iproper responsibility; Pensions-by-.'.right also had.been secured.. The Gov-, .ernment' had brought, down a proposal that all would admit was a generous one as far-as disablement was concerned. It was not made clear in the' Bill, however, ■whether the scale was to apply to the ,-iwife and children under 100 per cent, "disablement. ' The case of pensions to widows and children, in case of 'death, was not so satisfactory, and they'could not gTeet the proposals of the' Government in that respect with such cordinlity. (Hear, hear.) No one would hgree vhat 30s. a week was enough for a widow to livo on. '(A voice: "Impossible to do it!") So that Class A. men should,understand that when ,they went away they would know that, if ikilled, their widows would get 305.2 a week each and no more. He, too, did not know how anyone could keep, a child on 7s. 6d. ia .week as things were at present. • Food 'of all kinds iras very dear, and for a' . pair of boots for a child one had to pay ,'f rom Bs. 6d. to 10s. Cd. No one who knew (anything about the cost of keeping children decently could think tliat'Ts. Od. a week Was an adequate amount. They •lad asked for a separation allowance of '6s. a day, and the deleagtes at the last .conference were determined on getting it. (Voices: ''We're still determined!") The children's allowance liad been. increased from 9d. to Is. They had asked that it foe Is. 6d. a day. Thero was the case, tod, of the -widowed mother, who was supposed to exist on 10s. 6d. a week. If 3ier rights to pension* were recognised as equal as the- wife's, then her allowances should be equal also. Tho Defenceblister's answers to questions respecting the calling up of'tho Second Division were before the conference. • They were Tery ■unsatisfactory. (A voice: ; Not an answer aniong them.") The Bill-was toq long for him to go into in detail. Ho would Suggest that a committee be set i.p-to consider the Bill in detail and report; Mr. H. Bennett movod that the Pay nnd Pensions Cdnimittee of the'last, conference be reappointed. Mr. List (New Plymouth) suggested that the . chairman tehould appoint the «ommittee, as lie knew'those who were most .'capable' of dealing with-' theiso ■taatters. One member Taised the question of the

position ol' motherless children, who were, lie pointed out, not treated so woll as those with motheis. If anything he thought they should bo treated better.

: Mr. Bennctfs motion was seconded nnd carried, and the committee retired forthwith. ■ • .

A committee was also set up io cavefully compare the Bill as brougjit down by the Government with tho proposal!) of the last conference (with Mr. Toogood as chairman). Half an hour or more was spent in discussing tho basis of voting during tho conference. Finally it was decided that all questions bo left to the voico of the meeting, but if divisions wero called for that the voting be on the one. league-one-vote basis. Mr. A. A. Creamer .(Auckland) spoko of the best means of making tho conference's recommendations effective with Parliament, on which point .the confercnco wentlinto committee. Members of Parliament Attend. At midday the conference was visited by Messrs. i. M. Wilford, Q. W. Forbes, and D. 11. Guthrie, M.P.'s, who were in. troditccd - by Mr. Creamer as the Channel of communication between parliament and the Second Division Conference. Mr. T. If. Wilford said initially that delegates should not take the incident in the House of tho previous evening too seriously. If there were any note ot downheartedness he wished to say that there was no necessity for it. He explained the procedure of 'ParliiinUnt concerning tho passage of a Bill, and said there had been no loss by allowing the dobato lo "fizzle out," if ho might ■use the term. When tho Bill camo pefore the committee a full discussion could take placo on the first clause, when every member - could speilk four times—ten minutes Oil each occasion. No matter how- they disapproved of a vote, private membors could not movo to increase or reduce it—they could cnly impress their views on' tho Government by ' argument and speech. Mr.' Wilford said that there was one thing being done that was confusing the public mind. That was in obscuring tho difference between allowances and pensions, . Thoy. were quite interdependent, becauso' one did not commence until, the - other ceased j but 'the pnblic, confused' by the masses of figures published in the I'rass, were in many cases misled as to the total amount of money involved; He was afraid that some people simply added the amounts for pensions and allowances together, and called the total the amount the country had to find. that was entirely incorrect. He also referred to the- confusion in the public mind as to capital and interest. Some get it into their heads in many instances that the major-su;n was , required .to be found each years, when it was only- the interest on that amount. He ventured to suggest that delegates should not' leave the conference without resolution ; appreciative of the many good points in the Bill. In that. connection he begged leave to mention the tase of the reservists, the British reservists, whrise wives had been left with next to nothihg when the' men were called up. One great thing had been achieved. The Prime Minister ; had said that the Second. Division was not to be called r.p before medical examination. He asked them to believe that the members were, sympathetip, and had helped them to gain this, particular.part of t)ieir platform, which so vitally interested every Second Division man. He did not believe that the Pensions : Act would, be altered materially, but he believed that alterations might be made in the schedule. Members were not. satisfied with the present • scale of allowances. (Applause.) • Mr, Wilford made an earnest appeal to the delegates not to imperil tliqir. own case by. doing anything that would embarrass the Government. Mr.. D.H. Guthrie said that there was one! thing he wished to impress •upon .them, and that was that i in the main the rank and file of the members considered the claims of the Second Division were just, and members >.nd even Ministers were sympathetic. He. said there was little doubt that the league would get-its three months between the ballot and being, called up. Mr. Guthrie gave the assurance that, the regulations would be those approved and moulded by Parliament, and would not be • regulations. drawn up Departmentally. Fin-, ally, he said that they (tho. members of Parliament present) were trying to do something, and, if it came off, he v/ns sure that they would all be well pleased. Mr. G. W. Forbes 6aid ho sympathised with them in not wishing to liavo regulations that could be varied from time to The delegates were all business men, he could see, and they wished every contract made to be a definite and binding one. (Hear, hear.) He had to congratulate the'league on having members who cou]d place their views nnd questions before the Ministers and members of Parliament as lucidly' as they had done. After nil they (the Second Division men) only wanted to know that, when they , were called up, their wives and children would be left in comfortable circumstances. The country could afford it., (Applause.) They Tcally wished them to become wards of tho Statenot a poor wretched State, but. of the rich, . prosperous State New Zealand was to-day. Whatever people gave Who remained in New Zealand was nothing compared with those who were going' Out prepared to make the extreme sacrifico. • He hoped that justice would bo clone and that, there, would, after all. be something of that often misused virtue— .equality' of sacrifice. (Applause.) In. thanking the speakers most cordi-

I ally, the president made it very clear [ that one of their chief points had bcc:i the holding of the medical examination well beforo tho men were called up—not the ballot or any other examination, but tho examination by tho Military Medical Board. In ninny directions the Government had met the league's wishes, but there were others in which it had not, where rates had been provided that .woro altogether inadequate. •Ho asked for a 'hearty voto of thanks to tho members, and, at the chairman's request, tho conference accompanied tho honour with the usual gonial chorus. Organisation. When tho conference resumed, I lie president moved and it was decided:—' "That conference recommends to each league to accept as an amendment lo tho constitution, pending ratification 'by the annual conference, the following new subclause, under tho heading of objects:— (c) To 6et up 111 each centre such organisation and take such stej)s as lniiy be found necessary to conservo tho interests of all soldiers who are awav on active service, and to act in an advisory capacity to and assist all soldiers and their dependants in relation to tho securing of pensions and allowances payable. That it bo a further- recommendation to all leagues to immediately take stops to give effect lo the foregoing, and organise as a permanent body for tho purposes set out in this resolution." Reaffirmation of Principles. On returning to tho order-paper, tho special committees which had been set up reported. In the majority of cases they reaffirmed the principles embodied in the original conference's proposals lo the Government. In connection with the age-limit of children for allowances or pensions it .was decided after a discussion that such should cease at 17 years in the case of a male and 20 years in the. caso of a female.' The point as lo the time from which the Stats should assume the liability for a Second Division man's physical state .■was referred back to both committees for reconsideration. The major voice of the conference favoured that the) date should be the day on which lie was called up (first iparade), not the date of attestation, which might take place -weeks before he was called tip. Is the Public Being Misled? ■ Mr. T. C. List, the chairman of the Pay and Pensions. Committee, said the figures given by the Defence Minister on Wednesday njg'ht were calculated to mislead the public. He referred to assistance to be granted up to ,£3 a week to a soldier, and gave some extraordinary figures as to a. man's upkeep in civil life. . Regarding tile 65.. a day paid to soldiers, he had never considered that it was for a wife,' but rather for incidental expenses' for the soldier, and if he could save '2s; or 3s. a week it would be a little nest egg that would bo urgently needed when he returned- to civil life and had io pick up all the loose strings again, lie was strong in the opinion that- they should adhere to their original determination to demand 6s. a day for Wives. He moved accordingly. .

Mr. M'Leod, in seconding the motion, 6aid that the Government hadctated that .wives shouild receive .£2 2a. a -week, and they should ilot have to make up that amount by making any allowance out of their personal pay. The pay was a man's own, and it ought to be free for him to make the allowance or not as he thought fit. Of course, being married men they would all make the which would be 6aved against their return. The committee also recommended the rates of pensions in case of death. Tho Government proposed to make the rate , JJI 10s. to a wife without a child; ,£2 to a wife-with a child or children; and 7s. 6d. pei' for. each child. The committee's recommendation was that the'rates.'should be £2 25,, >£2 125., and 10s. Gd. .as' an irreducible minimum.

As time grew short (before the conference had to meet the Ministers) the 'ivhole Of the committee's report was accepted as expressing the wishes of the conference (save on the score Of clauso i of. the new. Bill, which was reserved for consideration later), The conference aujourned until 10 a.m.. to-day.