THE ALLOWANCES

Dominion, Volume 11, Issue 3, 28 September 1917, Page 6

THE ALLOWANCES

ME. MASSEY'S PKOMISE. The Prime Minister said there was no difference between the Defence Minister -and himself with regard to allowances. Ho realised the importance of the allowances. _ Ho believed that the regulations governing them were just as important as the legislation now before the House. It was the duty of the House to consider the regulations,, and it was the duty of the Government to provide the House with an opportunity of doing so. The House would have an opportunity to consider the regulations when "the Defence Minister laid them on the table. The House was entitled to the opportunity and would get it. The chairman (Mr. A. S. Malcolm) said he had allowed allowances to be discussed during the present debate, although they were not mentioned in the Bill. Ho nowasked members to confine themselves to the Bill, 6ince tho opportunity to discuss allowances would come later. Mr. H. G. Ell: Will the regulations be submitted before being finally gazetted? Mr. Massey: Yes. Mr. Ell: Will they bo taken in Committee in order that full discussion may take place? Mr. Massey: I hope the House understands that there was no reserve about' my promise. There will bo no attempt to take any .unfair advantage of tho House. It is immaterial to mo whether 'the regulations are discussed in Committee or otherwise. Every opportunity will be given to members to express their opinions on the regulations when they como along. Mr. .T. 'V. Brown: Will the Government act on any suggestion the House makei? Mr. Massey: This is an experiment. I cannot recollect any other occasion when regulations have been dealt with by Parliament. I think ' that it is tho right thing to do in this case. Members v will have' the, Opportunity they, ask, and if they desire to make an amendment by way of expressing an opinion, they wiil havo the oppotunity to do so. Will" It Mean Discomfort? Mr. C. E. StaEliam said that he was one of three or four men of the Second vision in the Hoiise. He said that n there was the stern necessity of Bending married men to the front there

was an equal necessity to seo that thoir wives and families were properly provided for. Did tho provisions of the Bill mean that the people who wcro remaining at homo would havo to alter their manner of living? They would go on living in comfort, or even luxury, just as tliey did before tho war. He did not approve of tho financial assistance scheme, because ho believed it was wrong in principle. It meant that the man who had burdened himself with debts was going to bo helped, and tiiat tho man without debts would get noth'ing. _Ho did not think it was altogether right that there should bo a difference between the pension of a widow without children and that of a widow

with children. A widow only drew i 3 so long as she had children of pension age. Is'soon as her youngest child reached the ago at which the allowance ceased, the widow's own pension dropped to ill 10s—at the very time when the mother needed the money most to help the girl or hoy into an occupation. He thought that the allowance .of 7s. 6d. for a child was not adequate. Several members spoke of the House insisting upon cortain amendments, uutil at length Sir Joseph Ward spoke very gravtfry about finance. Finance Minister Retorts. Sir Joseph Ward said there were misconceptions or misrepresentations regardfrig the financial side of the pensions questions. Members should have sufficient moral courage to face the facts and not make appeals to the natural feelings of the Second Division men. There were limits to the financial burdens tho country could assume. Members had to accept responsibility as well as the Government. Every member of the Government was anxious to go to the fullest possible extent. The. Ministers had informed the representatives of the Second Division that day that they were prepared to go into certain matters placed before them. Tho only limit was the financial capacity of the country. If members were going to put a pistol to tho heads of the Ministers in this matter, let them do it, and let the country recognise tho facts. Sir Joseph Ward said he would like members, if their sense of proportion failed them, to realise wliat the proposals being made by the Government in the way of pensions and allowances actually amounted to. The estimated revenue from Customs taxation this year was 000,000, while the proposals in the Bill meant an annual expenditure of ,£4,800,00, nearly as large as the whole revenue of the llailivay Department. The proposals meant the expenditure of a sum of money within JE1,000.000 of I tho whole revenue to be derived froni the war taxation on land- and income. Members would have the allowances before > I hem later and would have the opportunity to discuss them. Let them be sensible and practical. If they decided that it was desirable to impose ,£1,000,000 or .t'2,000,000 additional taxation in order to increase pensions and allowances, let them decide who should pay the taxation and then adjust tho payments. That would be sensible. ( But to aslc the Government to pay out tho increased sums before the extra money had been provided was not a fair thing. Members of the Hnnso had their responsibilities, and if their, hearts governed their judgment and they raised pensions and allowances to a point the country could not stand, I hey were going to bring about troubles that they could not foresee at the present time. He hoped the House would assist the Minister of Defence to put through that had taken him a verv lons time and much anxious thoujlit to prenare. Members at l?ast should refrain froni making demands for increased expenditure unless thev gave the Ministers the means whereby the demands would he met. Big FigurßS. "Let us lock for a u:omcnt at the

- financial position," lip 6aid. "Tlio in- ■' creased pensions in twelve months i'rom - the date of the Secoud Division going t into camp in January next would be at 5 tho rate of .£1,063,000 per year. That 1 is a permanent annual charge. There is do such thing as calculating interest 1 on this amount. Now, as a matter of i fact, 1 am not going to discuss allowances, but allowances on the b;tsis now ' proposed, in addition to those' which the ' Minister of Defence has stated to tho 1 deputation of tho Second Division League ' this afternoon, within 12 months after - January will amount to £2,037,081. In • all .the allowances with the pensions l amount to ,£3,100,691, which this country ) has to find in one year. r. More Taxes. ' It is impossible to say how long the ' war is going on. No one knows. Wo all , hope it will end in. twelve months, but supposing it does not, are these liouour--1 ablo members who aro telling tho House and the Government that they demand that so and so shall be done—are these : honourable members going to agree bci foro we go away to further increase tho i taxation ou the people? It has to be ; done. Do these honourable members ! who voted against the tea duty, and • who are now professing anxiety to have • all these things done, say now that it r is a fair tiling, a politically honest thing, for them to demand that thest in- . creases sould be made when they would not help us with a tax that was unpopu- . lar—a tin of threepence a. pound on lea? The very men who Rre iiow asking for tho advances would not vote to give us that extra revenue. How can tho Minister of Finance, how can the Government carry on unless the revenue is provid-, ed to discharge their responsibilities ? Let me point out the obligations we are taki ing. upon ourselves. lincluding the increases in old-age pensions, the war /pensions,, and including the amount which the evidenco before the Efficiency Board said that we would lose by six o'clock closing, which Tevenue tho House has not replaced, there is ,£4,825,691 in all. Dr. Thacker: Why not cut down the quota? Sir Joseph Ward: I am not discussing tlio quota. I am discussing finance. And I am not going to agreo to this unless the House gives us the taxation. If wo do some of the things they are asking ,'or now we shall have to have a tax of 2s. 6d. a pound on tea and 3d. a pound on sugar. ■> Mr. Payne: Tax incomes of ,£IO,OOO. Sir' Joseph Ward: If you take all tlio incomes over .£IO,OOO you can't do vhat you are asking for. Mr. M'Combs: Iteimpose the war profits tax. , . . Sir Joseph Ward: "It is very easy to say tliat when we have imposed an incomo tax which will take from the people a very much larger amount than the cxcess profits tax would do. . . . The Surplus and th'e Increases, "If you want to realise what the finan- ' cial position is, look at the Budgot of this year, t You will see that the estimated surplus is jet,'3oo,ooo, Supposing we had a glorious year, with no mishaps about shipping, we could not get more than ,£2,000,000 more than that. And yet wo havo proposals here in this. ism which will absorb at least three millions of that amount of tho expected balance at the end of the year. Do honourable members realise what this means? He went on to say that JJiere was no money value that could bo placed on a mans lite. That was not the measure of what the Government was doing. lhe ineas.uo was what our finances would stand. The Last Shilling. The Prime Minister said he had been reminded of a pledge attributed to 1-im that New Zealand would send the Id at man and spend the last shilling in the Empire's cause. He was not. sure he had been responsible for that pledge, but he was prepared to accept it. He b lieved the Dominion was prepared to send the last man and spend the, UsL shilling. There was no jingoism about that assertion. He was prepared'. to go [heMl length, and he believed he people were prepared to go the full length. But he could not feel that: all the members who had spoken that night had played the game. Some of the sugge* tions made had been ® was prepared to believe that the Financial Assistance Board could he strengthened with advantago., The work of that board had pleased him very much, .'.ho board had given its money to the people who required it. The Government had promised to do all it could tor the dependants of the Second Division, and it find done that. The existing pensions law had been the best law of tho kind the Empire had seen. Tlio new proposals were a big advance. The Second Division men had approved generally of what had been said with regard to pensions. The allowances "were another question. The allowance of 21s. per week proposed to bo made to a wifo would amount to <£507,000 at the present time, -nnd to ,£1,414,000 a year hence. If the rate were increased to 425. per week the charge next year would bo ,£2,829,000. The people of New Zealand wero neither financial shirkers nor shirkers of any other-kind. But it was not reasonable or fair for members to talk as though the only limit to pensions and allowances was tho willingness of the Government to pay. That was not the position. The Government had to count its means. No Threats Allowed. "No membor was going to hold a pistol to the head of the Government," said Mr, Massey.' "I know what to do about it, and I am prepared to do it," he added. "A number of members have been signing a request that we should havo a general election.. If they are not careful they will got it. I am prepared to take tlio verdict of the people at a general election. But let members remember this: the Boundary Commissioners will finish their work on Saturday, and if there is an election it will bo taken on tho new boundaries." Mr. Massey added that he did hot believe that the members of the Second Division wero supporting tlio wild demands that some members were making. He had found the Second Division reasonable, loyal, and patriotic. He wished the members .of Parliament were as reasonable and -as patriotic in their attitude. New Zealand had done splendidly; victory was almost in sight. Surely we were not going to givo up now? He wished to tell honourable members in all seriousness that if these proposals are forced upon tho Government they will lave to make up their minds to'increnso taxation. And where was it to cinie from? Great change had come over the country since the Finance Bill had passed, and hp viewed the situation now with somo apprehension. Tho Government could not take much more from land tax. 110 had met a farmer who, wider the new demands was required to pay 10s. an acre in land tax, and more than that the taxes could not be increased witli safety. Not very much more could be taken out of incomes. The taxation would have to come from Customs. He did not consider that honourable members had been fair to Ministers, who had been trying under the most difficult circumstances to do their full duty to the country. They had not been ns fair or as loyal as members of the Second Division Leasuo, and he resented strongly tho attacks made on the Government. a After passing three clauses of tho Bill, the House rose at 1.55 a.m.