PARLIAMENT

Dominion, Volume 10, Issue 3194, 19 September 1917, Page 6

PARLIAMENT

SOLDIERS'VOTES -i REDUCTION OF HOTEL HOURS PRIME MINISTER' OPENS THE DEBATE ' FINANCIAL AND OTHER ASPECTS '> , - . : The Legislative Council met at 2.80 p.m. SOLDIERS' VOTES. The Statutes Revision Committee reported fhe Parliamentary Reprosentar tion (Expeditionary Forces) Adjustmont ■ Bill -without amendments, and the Bill was committed. Sir Francis 801 l said that the Bill made no provision for voting. The Minister of Defence was unable to certify to the place of residence for elootoral purposes of the men who had gone to the front, since the, addresses left by tho men were the addresses of next-of-kin. It -was necessary, moreover, that the .men who had been away from the country on tho night of .the census and also the men who had been in camp on that night should be taken into accohnt in the fixing of the electoral boundaries. The-Electoral Commissioners were being givon power to distribute the men proportionately over the electorates. This numerical distribution would be roughly ■ accurate. Provision ..would be made later for the actual Toting of the sol,diers. The Hon. W. Earn3haw: How do yon propose to deal with the votes cf the men abroad? Sir Francis Boll: When the time for .Voting comes the soldier will be asked ■where lie lives, and lie will vote in his own electorate. The Hon. J. T. Paul said that Wel- , ' lington's population had been swelled for . census purposes by war activities, tho , •\ proximity of the camps, and the presence of soldiers on leave on the night of tho census. This wbuld give an unfair advantage- to the Wellington' electorates. He would have liked the Bill to take notice of the fact that the war had brought many people' to Wellington. •Sir Francis Bell: They will never go . iback. Mr. Paul: I question whether the Government can provide sufficient induce- ■ jnent to keep them in Wellington after the war. . > . - Sir Francis Bell: Nature has done ' that; Mr. Paul: I think_th? Government is a much more potent influence in keeping people in Wellington than Nature. , • Sir Francis Bell said he admitted that ■ the war had brought people to the North Island, but the exact number could not be ascertained. The number could not be largo enough to make any very material difference in representation in anv case. An exact adjustment was cut of ' the question. If the approximate adjustment proposed by the Bill were not made, very serious anomalies would ' arise. The men in the training camps would be counted in the electorates in which the camps were situated, and the eoldiers absent on service would rot be counted all. , Tho Hon. W. EarnsTiaw suggested that in view of the presence of South ■Island people in the North Island on the ■night of the census, the South Island should be given "the benefit of the doubt" in the event of the transfer of a i seat being dependent on a. narrow mar- - gin. 7 * Election Wanted, The Hon. J. T. Paul moved an amendment to Clause. G of the Bill .with the object of causing a goneral election : to be held 'in the present year. He said he had never believed that Parliament had a'right to extend its own term ot life. The election should be held i>t the normal time this year. Tho argument that an election would hamper Now Zealand in ,tho prosecution of its share of the war was not sound. Other and more important countries .had hold elections, in the war period. There were questionswhich the people should have an epportunity to settle. If an election . were lield this i year. _ the ordinary licensing poll could be held. The had been postponed originally wth the idea that tho war would be over before the end of 1918, and the date of the election had been set back, therefore, for a year. But nobody could say that the war would end next year Was the election to be oostnoried indefinitely? _ ' The Chairman, ruling on a point of order raised by the H°n.'G. A. U, Hardy, said that the amendment did not involve appropriation. If it should be carried the Government would be required to make provision by way of appro- ■ ' priation for a general election. ' Proper Election Impossible. ' Sir Francis Bell said it was nonsense to suggest that a general election nnde resisting conditions would give the people an opportunity to express thenopinions. The- two- important political ■parties were combined, in suppoit of tho National Government, 'and had #S r «d, not to oppose one another at the poll* while this Government- was m existence. If a Liberal held a scat the Reform would not nominate a candidate against him, and sin ilarly the Liberals, would ■ not bid for Reform seats. A general election- held-.under such conditions wouid mean merely that the temporarily combined Liberals and Reformers' would opDosetho Labour Party. A contest of ■ that kind would not provide any useful test of public opinion. The niembeis of i the National Government were not shirk- ' in® a "eneral -lection. Nothing would ttlase them better than to have an elecFinn Some of the Ministers would be very pleased to be relieved heavy responsibilities they carried. But theie was no relief to be secured through a tronenl election.' The postponement of the licensing poll was a difficulty, but he felt that it would be a mistake to take the poll apart from an election. S P j„° Z himself, ho would say tha. he knew where tho money power laj at the could bring th«r su.pyOrt-

"Sir William Hall-Jones paid that last lection to lead the veop o to believe that conscription was going tbe frS Thera would be a general election in New Zealand before the war wa. tTb~ the ff le nM * illpis jU Mon O he did | not think it would be wise lia*e . "enoral election .during: the var. ino , gspfft!! nounced ' William Hall-Jones- They cannot bsSause of the War Regulations. Sh- l'rancis Bell: Oh. nonsense. Mr Earnshnw said that a demonrtration against «-e. Government on a local matter was being held that tlaj. Was the Government going to pnt any Mends a bit *ho they 0T Mi\ "Earnshaw said there could be uo possible doubt about the result of a general election. The people would ha to no choice but to return the National tiovrrnmentand then the » ible to claim a mandate, .lHhoiuii as matter of fact the people might rot approve of some of the things the Gov-erSTODWilliamneHall-.7ones said that •ffiSJjKS M S r Welsh-tf The War' who'incited <fisaffoctlon againsttlie^Go"-

ernment was liable to twelver months' imprisonment.

The Hon. G. Carson said it would Tho a wasto of time and money to have a general election, since the tw<> important parties could not oppose ono another, but ho would like tho licensing poll to bo held. He believed the voters would bo tako.i to the poll. Mr. Paul said ho had never believed in the National Government, which had become a bulwark of Conservatism. The country would have got better government from cither of tho parties than it was getting from the two parties combined.

The Hon. Major Harris or/posed the amendment. Ho said that the 'country was not opposed to the; National Government in the <ay some people suggested. Very many people weffe realising now that Sir Janies Allen was the best Minister of Defenco New Zealand could have had. , , Sir Walter Buchanan said that a refusal to handle domestic legislation in war-time was not a mark of Conservatism. France was one of the most democratic countries in the world, but it was not troubling with domestic legislation in the face of the enemy. These was no evidence of popular lack of confidence in the National Government. He was convinced that if an election should be held the Government would be returned stronger than ever. Sir Francis Bell said that there had been some domestic legislation during the war. But a Government constituted as the National Government was constituted oould not undertake much, domestic legislation, because its_ membors were not in agreement. He himself, for example, could not agree with his successor at the head of the Department of Internal Affairs with regard to matters of local government. They had agreed as to the control of rivers, and legislation on the point had been put through. But generally there hod been a party truce as regarded local affairs. The Government had not been idle. Whenever a real hitch in domestic matters had occurred it had attempted earnestly to remove them. But questions of policy had to be postponed. • The amendment wns rejected on the voices, and tho Bill was put through its final stages and passed. REGISTRATION OF ALIENS. The Aliens Registration Bill was read a second time pro forma and referred to the Statutes Revision Committee. The Council rose at 1.20 p.m. THE HOUSE | The House of Representatives met at 2.30 p.m. Thp first two hours of the sitting was occupied with the discussion on the report .of tho Government's Kauri Gum Department. Northern members, and many southern members, who visited the north of Auckland in the Tecess, spoko about settlement of the territory. In the course of his reply in the debate the Prime Minister said that the Government wonld retain its control of the gum industry after the war. DENTAL TREATMENT. Tho work of the military denial service and tho training of dentists were discussed in connection with a report presented by the Minister of Defence. Several members urged that increased pro- ! vision should be made for tho training of dentists without involving students in heavy expense.

EARLY CLOSING THE GOVERNMENT'S PROPOSAL DEBATE ON THE BILL OPENS. The PRIME MINISTER moved the second reading of the Sale of Liquor Restriction Bill. He said that tho House was being given the promised opportunity to revise the licensing law. The Bill waa a non-party measure in the truest senso of the term. No influence would be used in either direction tu T himself or by any othor member of the Ministry. Every member of the House and every member of the Government was free to vote as he felt inclined, and_ every member would be responsible individually for his vote or votes on the Bill that the Government had submitted to Parliament. He had noticed that feeling with regard to the closing hour of hotels was running pretty high outside Parliament. He hoped that members would be able to respect each other's opinions, and that the final result would be accepted in a sportsmanlike manner by all the members of the House whatever that result might be. That would be the fair attitude, and he expected the House would adopt

it. At this stage the Prime Minister was interrupted bv noise from the door of the public gallery, where some, disappointed visitors appeared to be to force their way in. Ml the galleries wore crowded, and many people had been unablo to gain adfnission. The Speaker directed the Sergeant-at-Arms to clear tho outer passages. _ . Mr. Massey, resuming, said that ho thought there was a general feeling in Parliament and in the country that the trading hours of hotel bars ought to be reduced during tho war period. Tho Bill, proposed that the bars should open at 9 a.m. instead of 6 a.m., and close at 8 p.m., instead of 10 p.m. That meant a reduction of five hours daily in the hours. He knew that the Bill would not satisfy many of his Prohibition friends. , ~ Mr. L. M.' Isitt (Christchurch North): It is not a Prohibition movement. Mr. Massey: "I am not going to discuss that." Tho proposals contained in the Bill would not satisfy tlie people who took an extreme view,- but he was doing ■ what lie' believed to be rijjht. The People's Will.

It was an indisputable' fact, added Mr. Massey, ttiat a niajoriti" ot the people of New Zealand had declared in iavour of continuance at the last election.

Mr. Hornsby: Tluit time is up now. Mr. Massey: It is not quite up. 'l'lie vote had been a clear Qiie, and it had to be remembered that tha licensing trade was a legitimate one. What would have been the position if Prohibition had been carried at the poll of 19H. and that an agitation had been made for the opening of hotel bars again in the present year? Supposing meetings had been held and petitions had been pre-

sentod? .„ . . ■ Mr. Okcy (Taranaki): You will not get the number of signatures to the petition. ■ Mr. Massey: I am not quite sure about that." The time may eomo when we will have an opportunity to test the question. There were many people in New Ztulaml who did not want hotel hours to he reduced, and who felt that Ihey had reason to resent the proposals contained in the Bill The Government had to look at both sides of the question. Public Opinion. Ho had had evidence that the people of New Zealand did not all hold the same opinion on this subject. T.abtiur unions had informed him that they were opposed to early closing m ipcmmse to a circular forwarded them by the Hotel Workers' Union. Mr. Massey rend a lengthy report showing irhnf various unions lifld resolved 011 tnis point.. Twentr-six unions had declared against six o'clock closing. JR b;»l tnlcpn no action, one union was in favour ot a vnfprendum, and one was in favour ot six o'clock closing. The_ information cnpnlied to him by the Hotel Workers' Union. The Mayor and n*her nrominent people of Palmersfon Vorlh had sent him a document showing ihot Ihev favoured the nroposals of the Efficiency Board. The rrnresentntivw of the chartered club". with over 20.000 members, had adopted a resolution stating that they protested emphatically en>'Hilivp"t of th» evenins hours for the sale of li-mor. The social value of the clubs would he largely di--1111'"ishod l>v reduced hours. Mr T.ee /Onmarn): That is affnuist the PtnnriiiiT Orders. Tt is comment on a Bill before the House. Mr. Mnssev said there was no violation of the Standing Orders. Anti-Shouting. Reference had' been made, said Mr. Massey, to the anti-shouting law. He had been told that the anti-shouting law was a farce. Mr. Leo: The administration is.

Mr. Massey: Would members bo in favI our uf .striking it out? Mr. llornsby (Wairarapa): Wo will if you give us six o'clock. | Mr Massey: "I want lo got tho opinions of memebrs. Sly secretary has had to engago two extra typists to deal with communications from all over New Zealand on this liquor question." Mr. Massey quoted a letter from a Methodist olergymau, stating that tho anti-shout-ing law had reduced drunkenness among soldiers. Tho official statistic*; showed a general reduction of drunkenness in 1910-17 as against 1915-10. Sir. G. Witty (Riccarton): 80,000 men wore away from New Zealand. Mr. Massey: Many of tho men were away in 191 G. He believed that the antishouting law had reduced drunkenness substantially. The for drunkenness had shown a substantial decrease under the new conditions, and proved that the movement had beeij*in the direction of sobriety. The law was firmly administered in some parte of the country. Ho had noticed 13 prosecutions in one up-country town. Mr. Lee: Why any differences? Mr. Massey: I don't know.

Mr. Lee: Nor anybody else. Mr. Massey said that the Government was as sincere as anybody else in its desire to promote temperance. It had already done a.great deal. The l'estric* tions imposed on the liquor trade during tho war period had "overcd a great dea.l of ground. The hotel hours in the Austin linn States were as followtjneenslaml, G a.m. to 11 p.m.; New South Wales, 6 a.m. to 6 p.m.; Victoria, -.'l a.m. to 6 p.m.; South Australia, 5 n.m. to 6 p.m.; Western Australia, 9 a.m. to 9 p.m.; Tasmania, G a.m. to G p.m. Australia's Hours. New Zealand under the Bill, would have shorter hotel hours than any Australian State but Victoria. The hours tfcat were being taken oil were tho moat valuable of all from the point of view of tho liquor trade. He did not lielievo that the question of hotel hours Bnould be settled by a referendum. Th® menibois of the House had been oleeted to represent the people, and ' they ought to do

their duty. Australia had not yet recovored froni the oll'ects of : Jts list referendum. Ho believed that the . efereudum had had much to do wit'n the recent strike in Australia. The referendum that had been recommended by the Efficiency Hoard had not been on Vhe question of early closing, but on the larger question of total abolition of th>B .iquor traffic, with compensation.. Ho felt that tho sooner the country got rid of the eternal agitation regarding tho liquor question the better, and lie was prepared lo faco the suggestion of the board when the tune came. The question of compensation would be for the Government to consider. The hotirs proposed by tho ~11 were better than those recommended by the Efficiency Board. 'Iho Bill proposed G6 hours per week, and the board had proposed aB. He did not believe that the New Zealand soldiers were drunken. He had never seen drunken New Zealand soldiers m England. He had seen an occasional inebriated soldier in Wellington, but it was utterly untrue to say that hundreds of drunken men were to be seen. Tho soldiers had >iie same rights as other people, but they did not need more protection. The Financial Aspect. Tho financial aspect of tho subject could not be neglected. Cabinet during the last few davs had been considering proposals that ivotild mean increased expenditure to the amount of <11700,000 per annum. ■ ... . Mr. A. H. Hindmarsh (Wellington South): For the Second Diviison? j\lr. Massey: The House will see tlie proposals in due course. Mr. J. A. Koung- (Waikato): Are you not accumulating reserve revenue? Mr. Massey: Most certainly. Tlie money will bo needed when the proper time comes. We are going to .ask Parliament to agree to additional expenditure of not less, and possibly more, than .1:700,000 per year. Mr. Lee: This yeai:? Mr. Massey: "This session. It will be a charge for each year." He believed that tho proposals of the Bill would affect the revenue to the' extent of .£250,000 per annum,' and that six o'clock closing would increase the loss to <£500,000. Tlio present revenue from liquor amounted to .£1,000,000. If tho earlier closing entailed a loss of ,£300,000, that sum would have to bo added to the .£700,000 he had mentioned, making a total sum of <£1,000,000 to be provided. It was not true that the Government,was favouring tlio liquor trade. The increased duties on Bpirits meant an added charge of £77,000 on spirits and <45177,870 per year on beer. "Mr. Leo: Tho Cabinet, cannot take credit for that. The House forced it on the Government.

• Mr. Massey. That is most ungenerous. Members of the Government had been subjected to a good deal of abuse in connection witli the early closing question. But they had received commendation, also, for their general attitude in relation to the people's interests. .Mr. J. T. M.'HOKMSBY (Wairarapa) said lie would voto for six o'clock closing. He regarded the question' as one of national economy, not of prohibition. The need for economy could not be doubted. The nation needed its available funds for war purposes, and tho fact that the licensed trado would suffer loss must not weigh against the needs_ of tho Empire at a critical period of its history. Other sections of the community had suffered very terrible losses in order that the war might he won. The Bill should have contained provision for the reduction of rents in cases where licensees would lie involved in loss by the reduced hours. On Weight of Numbers. Mr. A. HARRIS (Waitsmata) said that the petition presented to Parliament had been signed by 177,000 peoplo. ■ Mr. Massey: What proportion ot the total number of electors is 1< 7,000 ? About a fourth. Mr. Harris said that tho trade would not dare to petition the House. They could not have obtained iO.OOO signatures. They knew that the people Ihrouglioiu the length and breadth of the country had been roused to demand this reform. The people would accept no compromise on this issue. He was satisfied that 80 per cent, of the people demrcd it. If it were not granted there should at least be a referendum. "I want to tell the National Government.," he said, '.'that if six o'clock closing is not granted His Excrflcncy the po-rernor-General will receive a petition asking for [. dissolution of Parliament. We w prepared to go to the country oil this ' & Mr! Massey: Bring me a document signed by +1 members of this House asking for a general election and you will get it. Mr. Harris: Tho honourable rrentleman knows that he is quite safe in making, that proposal, because lie knows that there are not 41 members of the House who will sign such a document. Mr. Massey: Will you sign it? Mr. Harris (lid not reply. He proceeded to discuss the recommendations _of the National Efficiency Board, defending the recommendation of the board, and accusing the .Government of worshipping the golden calf of the liquor interests. If tb'o Government; would not grant six o'clock closing ho would urge the Government to arrange that tho ordinary liquor poll shoul/il bn taken at the end of the year. He 'would not like to accuse the, Government, of having more consideration for beer than natriotism, but it was hard to refrain from saying it.

The Government's Fault. Mr. Tj. M. ISITT (Christchurch North) said that the Prime Minister had told the House that it was the duty of the National Government to stand between the various factions. That was not his idea of the duty of the National Government. The National Government had been put in office to give the people, a lead, to inspire them tq every sacrifice necessary to win the war. But the National Government had always gone along the path of reform only so far as it was shoved. It wa<j all -cry well to say'-that the Government: was giving the Bill a fair run. The issue between the contending factions would be a very closely fought olio, and he could not say how it would go. But tl.qro were some members who had said they would vote with the Government, and he could not but hold the Government responsible for the defeat of- six o clock closing. The Prime Minister had said that six o'clock closing would mean the loss of half a million in revenue.' What did this mean? It would mean that thore would bo saved to tho people at

least two millions of money, aud this would mean a treat increase in prosperity of tho people, lie discussed tho question of compensation for hotel iiconcees in the •event of early closing or Prohibition being carricd. About Anti-Shouting. Mr. E. P. LEE (Oamani) said that last year tho Cabinet had been solidly opposed to early closing, and they wero now consenting to eight o'clock closing, bccause it was forced upon them. Now the people were taking a hand, and would insist on controlling a trade which tho Government had failed to control. Tho Trade had never given the slightest help to tho State in this war time, but had opposed every proposal for the taxation of the traffic. Last year Parliament had passed tho anti-shouting law, but tho Trade had set it at defiance, aud the law was of no effect llr. Herdman: Not at all. Mr. Lee: Is it enforced? Mr. Herdman: It is, Mr. Lee: Does the Attorney-General wish to assure me that the Trade in this Dominion is obeying the law as regards ■anti-shouting? Mr. Herdman: I say the police are doing their duty as far as they can. Mr. lee: I am referring to the Trade. Mr. Tterdman: You are attacking mo now. You say the law is not being-en-forced. Mr. Lee: "I say tho law is not being carried out. And if it is not being car-

tied out it is not being enforced." He went on to say that he was in favour of a referendum on the question of six o'clook closing, and he had so far altered his views on the general question of local option that he was in favour of a bare majority instead of a three-fifths majority. The Government had absolutely neglected to do its duty in giving the people a lead in regard to national economy. He, along with other supporters of six o'clock closing, would vote for. the 6econd reading of the Bill. Afterwards, in committee, he hoped that eight o'clock would be struck out, and that some at least of the Ministers would i vote for six o'clock closing. Mr, Payne is Facetious. , Mr. J. PAYNE (Grey Lynn) began-.— ["We are citizens of tho greatest Empire the world has ever seen—an Empire on which the sun nover sots and the pubs never shut." Ho thought there must be an armistice at the front just row while tho Allies and the enemies waited with bated breath to hear what New Zealand was doing about early closing. Afterwards, when we had carried eight o'clock closing, he oould imagine the Kaiser saying to Princo Willie: "Willie, m/ bov, the game's up. Willie Boy, New Zealand is going on the water wagon and we have to look out." So New Zealand would bo sure to win the war unless the Germans thought of closing at seven! (Laughter.) It would bo no

longer a race for guns and munitions, but a race to see who would close earSiest, (because th» .nation closing earliest would assuredly win the war. (Laughter.) He accused the Government of unscrupulous methods in politics, saying that many members would vote lor the Bill against their convictions in order to placate the Prohibition party. Tho business men, or some of tlteni, wero in favour of six- o'clock closing because they wanted the attention of tne worker to be diverted from the high cost of living, and because they wanted money to bo turned fh'offl the publicans coffers into their owrn' National E,'fficiency. Mr. It. P. HUDSON (Motueka) said that nobody could contend that the efficiency of the country, the -welfare of Ike community, or the capacity of the lighting luWi were dependent on early closing ot hotels. Franco had''prohibited absinthe aud Russia had abolished vodka, but these countries had not interfered with the consumption of beer or. wiue. Larly closing would simply encourago drinking in tho homes, and would teach the people to use spirits instead of beer. Australia's early closing laws liad reduced tho amount of beer consumed, bmt had produced an' increase in tho consumption of spirits, according to the official figures. Mr.' Lloyd George had reduced the production of whisky, but he had made provision for the supply of beer. Six o clock closing would force tho working moil to take liquor into their homes. Tho debate was adjourned on the motion of Mr. C. H. Poole, and the House adjourned at 11.-10 p,ni.