MINISTER IN REPLY.

Dominion, Volume 10, Issue 3154, 4 August 1917, Page 8

MINISTER IN REPLY.

WHAT OPPOSITION MEANS. SIR JOSEPH AVAED replied at 9.15 p.m. Ho said that those who proposed to vote against the Bill wero going to vote against the men at the front getting their pay, against the men in Now Zealand getting their pay, against the men in the hospital getting attention, against the wives and children of soldiers getting their pensions. These were the men who claimed that they wero opposing the remission of income tax in the name ot Labour, nnd that this was the opinion of Labour. Did they not know that Labour Governments in Australia had issued loans free e.f incomo tax? The same policy had beon followed by Great Britain, by the ;?reat Dominion of Canada, and by the great democratic country, the United States. What did they mean by suggesting that our rate of interest was too high when wq were offering the loan at 41 per cent., a lower rate than had been ottered in the United States of America, a lower rate than had been offered by Canada? What did they mean by claiming to oppose the loan in the name of Labour? "'Just imagine for a moment," he said, "the honourable member for Lyttelton having the barefaced political audacity to stand up in his jjlace in Committee on the Bill, and say the Government was rushing the Bill through! Why, if all 1 members of the House had taken tho time that he and the member for Grey jjjiti TOok this afternoon, we would have been sixteen full days on one clause of the Bill! ... As a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, they let tho only clause df importance in the Bill go through without a word, and then held forth for twt hours on a,clause to validate something that occurred last year. . . . These are the two geniuses who have been lecturing the House for the whole of this afternoon." Mr. Payne: You should say Genii. This interjection Mr. Payjio followed up with others, and these wore by no means his first interruptions. Sir Joseph AVard for the second- time appealed to the Speaker, and for the second time Mr. Payne was warned by Mr. Speaker that lie must not interrupt. The Rate of 4J Per Cent. Sir Joseph AViwd: Let me try to make any reasonable person recognise why i! s per cent, free of income tax is proposed in tho Bill. It is proposed because we waut to get money to carry on tho wnr. Wo are offering a low rate of interest, and tho freedom from income tax is offered as a special inducement to people to take up tho loan. Is not this a reasonable proposal? Mr. Payne: I can't reply. There wns laughter in tlio men's gallery. Mr. Speakor: Order! Order! Thero is a noise in a part of tho House from which it should not como. Visitors who come hero must romain silont. Sir Joseph Ward went on to robuke the membor for Lyttelton for, as he alleged, misrepresenting him. The Compulsion Proposal. The Minister eaid that it had been suggested in tho course of tlio dobato that ho had proposed in his Budget a jovy upon wealth in default of contributions to the loan. Ho read tho paragraph from tho Budget, and atldod that his proposal was to introduce heavy taxation, if necessary, to fall upon those wealthy people who lmd not subscribed to fho last loan, and who did not subscribe to the present loan. AVhen tho Taxation Bill camo down members would find tho proposal thero, and ho believed tho House, except perhaps for tho two or three members who were like Islmiaelitcs, would be in hearty accord with him on fho point. The position of tlw Government in connection with tho war loan was very clear. The expenditure connected with tho war was huge, and it was absolutely necessary to provide tho money. The Government was trying to provide, the money in the cheapest way. Much of the criticism tliat had been directed at the Bill was quito misleading. No discount had been allowed upon tho loan of last year. The .£24,000,000 .lonn of tho prosent year was going upon tho market without discount. The loans of tho two years made a total of 4M0,O00,(!0O at i\ per cont., awl -nioji a penny of disooiuit hod to be deducted. Tho groat British Victory AVar Loan had beon placed on tho market at u per cont. froo of income tax, with a discount of 5 per cent. If New Zealand had allowed tho fiamo rate of discount tho cost to the Dominion would have .been .1:2,000,000. Tho Government was not paying for underwriting. The ordinary cost of placing a loan on the London market was 1J per cent., but the cost of raising <ho .£10,000,000 loan of 191G had been onehnlf por cent. That was a remarkable success from tho aspect of low cost and low rate of interest. The Large Investor. The attempts that had been mado to creato an' impression that the largo investor was going to get a return of 7 per cent, from tho loan were entirely uiin:ir. Small iuvistirs would not bo placed iii the samo position as largo investors since the small investors seldom piiul any income tax at all. If the loaii wero placed on tho market at (i per cent, with incomo tax, tho big investor's return in war time would bo scarcely moro than 3 per cont. The money would not bo secured at that rato voluntarily, and it would not bo fair or honest, to compel pooplo to invest on such terras. What members of Parliament had declared beforo their constituents in favour of the compulsory taking of peoplo's property without paying anythiug for it? Tho Hmi6o had to realise that tho Government required the -immediate and full co-operation of the bunking institutions at the present time. Tho tanks on tho previous occasion 'had guaranteed a certain amount of money, JM.OOO.nOO, and they had been allowed tho ordinary commission of 1 per - cent, for their servico in that respect. Tho banks did not own the money thoy held, and they had to be .paid for tho services they rendered. It might be necessary to pay commission again in order to ensure the success of the present lonn, and the Ministers who had tho responsibility on their shoulders should not be handicapped in tho conducting of tho necessary operations in an ordinary way. It was undesirable for Now Zealand to loan upon the Mother Country for money at the present time, and the necessary millions had to be raised locally, i'he members who were hampering the Government in connection with the loan woro not ajsistin" in the successful prosecution of the wir and were not in his opinion doing their duty to tho soldiers and the nation. Impossible suggestions had been made ami impracticable ..(-.hemes had been urged upon the Government. "Not Encouragiiifl." "It ia not encouraging to find any man responsible to his constituents not enlightening us, but time- and again on his feet detaining us for two. hours lho great majority, of members assisted tlio

passage nf tlio Bill by keeping silence, and 1 thank them for it. Speaking generally, the Houso has treated this important matter with great consideration, mill, may 1 say, great forbearance. In ordinary times a Hill of this sort would have been given notice of, and the introduction would have- taken a few days, and tho second reading might havo taken probably n week. As » matter of fact, tliero is not much in tho Bill that is dillicuU to understand. Of necessity t'nefio great war measures do not get, and can not get, in a war session, which this is, the sumo consideration from honourable mom here as they would get if thoro was not a war on. To expect us to apply normal conditions in war time is, 1 eay, unfair, and shows a want of appreciation on tho part of those who indulge in criticism of this kind, of tho difficulties this Government havo before them until the conclusion of tho wnr," A division was called on tlio third reading, which was agreed to by <!fl votes to 4. The members voting ngalnst tno Bill were Messrs. I'ayno, M'Combs, Webb, and Walker. Tlio House roflo at 10 p.m.