PARLIAMENT IN SESSION

Dominion, Volume 10, Issue 3145, 25 July 1917, Page 6

PARLIAMENT IN SESSION

ADDRESS-IN-REPLY DEBATE

' NATIONAL GOVERNMENT .■■V CRITICISED

A. SPIRITED DEFENCE BV ATTORNEY. GENERAL

The House of Representatives mot at 2.30 p.m. The Watiganui Church Acre Amendment Bill (Mr. W. A. Veilch), a private Bill, was read a third time and passed. SIR JOHN FINDLAY (Hawke's Bay) gave notice of the Wairoa Harbour Board Endowment Bill. Fourteen days' leavo of absence was granted to Mr. 11. W. Smith (Waimarino) on account of illness. Two days' leavo was granted to the Hon. It. H. Rhodes . (Ellesmere), and one day to Mr. J. V. Brown (Napier)'. ADDRESS-IN-REPLY -— r THE DEBATE RESUMED Mr. V. H. REED (Bay of Islands) resumed the debate on the Address-in-lieply. He said that he was one of thoso who believed that, generally speak- . ing, tho country;was satisfied with the ■manner, in w-hich the National Government had conducted the country's af- . tans. He thought that the effect of its administration had been to raise the .status of the Dominion among the dependencies of tho Empire. The Government had, however, made mistakes, and one of them was the imposition of the excess profits tax. In theory this tax was excellent, but it had been unfair in its application. He cited one case in which a dairy, farmer had had to sell his herd, and had had to pay -15 per cent, on the value received for tliem. Mr. Massey: Not on what he got for .liis oows, surely? Mr. Reed replied that this was so, ... and he repeated that money received for dairy cows under these circumstances ,ws capital and not profit/' Mr. Buick: I know of a similar case. - He condemned the butter-fat levy as .;.a class tax. The object of it was to keep ..down the price of butter for the benefit , of other classes. But would the other classes come to tlio aid of the dairyman if he'were to make a loss? And : there was a serious possibility that many dairymen would make a loss this year, ..owing to the lack of,transport for their ' produce. He would rather that the ,s.Government would raise the revenue by export and import taxes. He expressnl the opinion that the Government had not a sufficient organisation for the placing of soldiers on land. His opinion was that. 15 per cent, of the men who camc .; back would wish to so on the land. Ho .-; advocated setting up of boards of far- .. mers to relieve the land boards of a .task v(hich was far too great for them. ..Ho urged the Government very strongly ■ •to nroceed at once with tlie survey and . subdivision of .all Crown lands, especially the unsettled blocks in the North Auckland Peninsula. This could be done , if the Government would use private surveyors. Then the Government should > go on. with the roading of the sections. ; After referring at some length to the • operations of the Meat Trust, Mr. ..Reed • urged tho Government to encourage local -industries by every means in its power. Sufficient attention had not been given to this subject. " Taxation Wanted. Mr. G. FORBES (Hurunui) said that the prolongation of the Address-in-Rc-nl.v debate did hot seem to'him to require .Members had needed the opportunity to comment upon the very im- . portant work done by the Government during the recess, and to indicate the di- , rections in which they thought legislation should go. The visit of the Prime Minister and the Minister of Finance to the United Kingdom had been thor-oughly-justified by results, and it was highly. desirable now that the Ministers should he informed of the opinions of New Zealand's Parliament. Referring toithe problems of Imperial government, Mr. Forbes said that any attempt to form a close organisation or to limit tho autonomy of the Dominions would, be perilous. New Zealand could not- part with powers of taxation to any outside body. The smooth operation of tho Military Service Act had-gratified members of the House and had indicated 'that the people were earnest in their determination to do their full shave in winning the war. Parliament did not hesitate to make whatever further demands upon the patriotism of the community were found to be necessary. There was no doubt that sacrifices would have to be made. He hoped the Government would realise the necessity for taking members into its confidence. Tho time had come for the men who were not going to fight to provido enough money for the needs of Soldiers and dependants. There must be real equality of sacrifice. The members of the House were looking for very drastic taxation. They wanted to see every '•'source of taxation exploited to the utmost. Enormous profits were being made "by the people who were receiving war prices. The public demanded a scheme of taxation that wouJd leave 10 basis for the argument that the Government could not afford to make adequate payments to soldiers and soldiers' dependants. There must be no hesitation about inconveniencing the rich man in the general interests. The men who were being sent to .the front were inconvenienced very seri--1 .ously.- New Zealand should not lag be.li'nd the United Kingdom in the matter of taxation,- and the House wculd be ■very disappointed if the Government failed in ,thi3 respect':' The problems connected with the repatriation and demobilisation of the troops demanded at- .; tention. Land inn-t be found for thou- ' sands of returned soidiers, and it would jiot be fair or desirable to ask all these men to go into the back-blocks. The soldiers must have good'land in prrduc•,'tive condition, and the Government would liave to call upon the big freeholders to ."move up" an.d make room for the returned men. The whole position with respect to land settlement demanded attention. The census figures slxwed that the country population was decreasing and the urban population was increasing. There undoubtedly, was a considerable aggregation of moderate-sized- farms, causing a drift of people to the towns and creating a need for strong-remedial •measures. The graduated laud tax would have to be made a really effective instrument in oilier to make tho ht.lding of big . estates . and the aggregation of -properties imnossible. Wealth was being flaunted by the big landowners of Kew Zealand : at the present time. The mass of the people, oppressed bv the high cost of living, had made sacrifices, and ■were Teady to make further sacrifices; ■ they were in no mood to accept halfmeasures or to listen to any complaints tliat might be made by the people whose large incomes were to be taxed. . The "Act of Union.'" "I want to say ' something to tho Prime Minister in a perfectly friendly spirit," said Mr. Forbes.. "I want to say this: The successful working of tho National Cabinet depends upon the loyal co-operation of both sides of the House. "We on this side of the House have endeavoured to give that support, and I .want to see it continue. I want to sco the National Cabinet remain in existence until the end of the war, and possess fully the confidence of this House. Witli that feeling T want to ask the Prime Minister if he has interpreted what I may call tho "Act of Union" in the spirit in which it was frauivd. Our representatives entered the Cabinet with the understanding that they would bo treated with every consideration in the conduct of business. _ . , "I don't want to see the National Cabinet shipwrecked, but there are peints that ought, to be raised." Mr. Forbes proc-eedeel to sav members had roticed, iWhen. a deputation representing the Sec-

ond Division. League waited upc.n tlie Prime Minister, that the Minister of Finance was not present. The Liberal members felt that their leader had been placed at a serious disadvantage in not having heard the views of the representatives of the league. They hr.d been, very much impressed by the way in which the league presented its and they felt that the Minister of Finance iiad suffered a loss, Mr. Wilford (Hutt): The president of the league specially asked that the Minister of Finance sliould be present. The Prime Minister: 'Asked whom? Mr. "Wilford: 'In a letter to you on July 6. Mr. Forbes repeated that he was very sorry that the Minister of Finance had not had the opportunity of hearing the views of tlio Second Division delegates. Ho was proceeding to deal with a i/other point when he was interrupted by tho Primo Minister. Mr. Massey: 'Let me clear up this matter before it goes any further. When any deputation conies to me and suggests that any other Minister shculd bo present, I tell the deputation that I shall bo omy too pleased to l:ave him there. But I have often told deputations that the responsiblity of securing tho presence of the otliei' Minister or Ministers must not rest solely with lue. Tho invitation must ill most uses como from tho deputation. I have just spoken to my secretary regarding the point raised by the member lor Ilurunui, and he tells me that on the night, before the Second Division League deputation appeared, a note was sent by him to Sir Joseph Ward's room, asking him to be present. I do not know if the note reached the Minister -of Finance or reached his secretary. 1 should have been glad on that occasion to have had any member of the Ministry present to hear the news of the league. Other Grievances. Mr. Forbes proceeded to refer to the butter-fat levy. Ho said that tho Hon. W. D.. S. Mac Donald, as Minister of Agriculture, in the absence of tlie Prime Minister, has done his best to meet a difficult situation and to check popular dissatisfaction at a critical time. The Prime Minister had since met a very large deputation representing the dairying (industry, and it did not "ppear to the Liberal members that Mr. Massey had supported the Libera! Minister in the way he should have done. Mr. Sfassey: I said that I took my full share of the responsibility for what had been done. Mr. Forbes added that the Liberal members felt that tlie Hoard of Trade, which ha 3 been handling the cost-of-living problem, might well have been left in the hands of one of the Liberal Ministers, instead of being taken over by tlio Prime Minister on his return from London. Tlie board, under the control of Mr. MacDoua.ld, had been doing some useful work. One of tho stipulations made when the Liberal representatives were entering the National Cabinet lind been that some measure should be taken to deal with the cost of living, lie felt that the work should have been left m the hands of a Liberal Minister. The Liberal Party did not feel content with the position. A member: There is no Liberal Party. Mr. Forbes: "Yes, there is a Liberal the party. I simply wish to icquaint tlie Prime Minister with what is passing through the minds of Liberal members on this side of the House. I want to sec the National Government continue, and T want to lay the rumour mentioned by the member for Have's Bay that there is dissension in the Cabinet." Mr. Forbes appealed to (lie Ministers to take the House into their confidence in. connection with the affairs of the country. It could not be said that all fhe wisdom of Parliament was nossessed by the Ministers, and the members had a right to share the work of government. The Hons" might consider some of the Government's proposals at a secret session. ATTORNEY-GENERAL SPEAKS ON MAKING MISCHIEF A DEFENCE OF THE GOVERNMENT. The HON. A. L. HERDMAN (Attor-ney-General) was the next speaker, and he traversed in some degree the speecli of Uie member for Hurunui. "i listened with great interest to the speech just delivered by tho honourable gentleman/' said Mr. Herdman. "The statements that he made were no doubt intended to be perfectly fair, and much 1 uf the criticism that lie advanced will, I am sure, be carefully considered by the National Government. From a fow ot the remarks the honourable gentleman 'made one might imagine that this country was not being taxed at all. One might come to the conclusion after listening to his observations that the National Government was afraid to impose taxation on people who have the good fortune at the present time to have large incomes. I can assure the honourable gentleman that the National Government will not . fail in its duty to impose taxation on people with large incomes. I believe that now some such •people are feeling tho burden heavily. And the Government would be foolish indeed were it to exact purely from a spirit of mischief or vindictiveness larger sums by way of taxation than national necessity would justify. It was a matter of satisfaction, and of advantage to the whole country, that large sums of money should he coming in for the produce exported, that there should be wealth to carry on the business of the country, and that the people should be prosperous. Through this time of war I venture to say that there is no more 1 appv or prosperous part or the British Empire thnn New Zealand. Our people are exceptionally fortunate. They have not felt the war as other parts of the Empire have felt it. We have had large prices for our produce, and there is abundance of worl? for everylwdy. Wo have not heard the sound of the guns. The only people who do realise that a war is actually raging in the world are tlioso whoso homes have been : visited by sorrow because of the German sword. Othor people are prosperous and happy. Millions of money are rolling into the country. There is no more happy and prosperous and blesfed country on the face of the world than this country of New Zealand. Land for Soldiers. The honourable gentleman dealt with the Lands for Settlement Act, and suggested that the provision for acquiring of land should bo altered in some wav. Whether he intended in the course of'his speech to hint to the Government that they were responsible for the present condition of affairs 1 don t know. Mr. Forbes: No; not at all. Mr. Herdman: Tho National Government is not responsible for what happened prior to llilG. All the weapon* available for the compulsory purchase of land still remain to us. The ouly change that lias taken place is in the legislation of 191(i, which was passed i'->. order to enable the Government to take land for soldiers under the rublic Works I Act in the vicinity of towns and cities. All the old powers aro still in existI ence, and in addition wo have the power created by the Act of 191 '5- We are not ■ responsible except, for what tool; place I in HUG, and 1 venture to say that those 1 provisions of t9X(? are of advantage to

tho country, and will eventually bo of adrantago to the soldier. Secret Session Idea. "In tho course of his speech tho honourable gentleman suggested that the Government should do its best to take honourable members into its coniidcuce, that Ministers should place all the material at their disposal at the disposal of honourable gentlomcu, ami should confer with them as to future legislation. He suggested that a secret session might be held. I understand that secret sessions have been held in England, but not so much for considering ' matters of policy, or ascertaining tho views of members of tho House of Commons as to legislation to be brought down, but for the purpose of allowing tho Ministry of the day to supply information to -menibers of the House which it would not be advisable to give for publication in tho Press—matters relating to the disposition and state of tho Army and the Navy, and to submarining—and not matters relating to tho domestic policy of the country or to legislation." Mi. Herdman said that he did not see how effect could be given to the honourable member's suggestion. Could thero be afforded any more opportunities for discussion of the Government's policy than was already afforded in the House? Mr. Poole: Why this reservation on certain matters? Mr. Herdman: There is no reservation. Sir. Poole: Oh, yes, there is. Mr. Herdman: I deny that. The honourable gentleman forgets that this House has been sitting only for three weeks, and it has been impossible to give honourable gentlemen all . the information they want in that space of time. If honourable gentlemen want information they should ask for it. . . . Mr. Forbes: Wheu wo criticise the Budget we'll be accused of criticising the Government. Mr. Herdman: Criticise a 6 much as you please. It gives a charm to Parliamentary life to hear speeches of criticism from the honourable gentleman. (Laughter.) The Aliened Strife Within. "I pass from that to another point tho honourable gentleman made. He made reference to the lack of unanimity which is supposed to exist in the Government. I think it is a pity that criticism of this kind 6liould be made." Mr. AYilford: It is there, too. Mr. Herdman: Well, I havo been in the National Government two years. I am sure that during that time the Prime Minister has shown the utmost courtesy to every member of the Cabinet. Tho criticism can have the effect only of making mischief. If any breach did exist at present in tho Cabinet criticism of this kind is only calculated to widen the broach rather than to cement it. The Prime Minister and the Minister of Finance have sailed tlio seas together. They went away witn smiling faces, and they have como back with smiling faces. (Laughter.) And during their absence every member did his level best. Mr. Witty: For himself. Mr. Herdman: No. The honourable gentleman is wrong. I deny that. Every member of the Government did his best to carrv on his duties. Mr. Witty: For himself—in some cases, not all. , Mr. Herdman said that it had been-a matter of surprise to him when the National Government was formed that such a collection of hostile elements could be brought, together. Mr" Wilford: And mndo homogeneous. Mr. Herdman: And become homogeneous and work together happily.

Empire Reorganisation. Mr. Herdiuan said that he, with other members,. believed that tho expedition which our two Ministers hud made to the Homeland had been of great benefit to this country, and that the efteetor it would bo felt i'or many wars. Wothing had shown as the war had shown that the constitution of the Empire was perhaps obsolete, and that tho time had come for amendment of it. Tho powers of New Zealand to govern it;eli were fixed by the Constitution Act, but it had no power to take part in anything which had not directly to do with the peace, order, and good government of the people. of this country. The war had shown that it was.proper that tins country should have a voice in iiihurs outside of this control ot an army, contracts with foreign Powers, naturalisation, and such matters. Ho did not believe that there should be - an Imperial Parliament "lording it" over the British Parliament. To create another set of administration machinery would lead to confusion. But a body to deal with Empire matters should be free of some of the disfigurements of the parliamentary system. It: should be free of party strife. Enemy Subjects. The problem of naturalisation had been raised in a new form by the war. Ho believed there should be one law of naturalisation for the whole Empire, ami that an order of na:uralisation granted in one Dominion should have force all over the Empire. A uniform nwthod ot dealing with alien and enemy subjects was needed. He had found it diiheult to get a (ilear idea of what was buns done in tho Old Country with i'e?ar.l to enemy subjects. It was a fact that thousands "of enemy subjects were still carrying on business in the United Kingdom. New Zealand had been stricter than Britain in this matter, since naturalised enemy subjects had been interned r.ere. His oivn idea was that ft ine outbreak of war every er.emy subject should have b:en interned or sent back to his own country, lie Empire needed some uniform method ol dealing with enemy trade. Ihere had been difficulties in this respect owing to the lack of uniformity, though New Zealand had taken drastic steps from the outset and had succeeded in practicnUj extinguishing the importation of goods of enemy origin. The statistics showed that N'W Zealand had imported goods to the value of .£1,125,000 from the enemy countries in 1914. .£102,308 in 191 a. .«96..> in 1916, and .£1430 in 191 <, lhe goods received in the later years had come from neutral countries or interned slups. and had not been exported froni the enemy countries in war time, boons from'the United States and Japan were taking the place to a large extent of tho goods that formerly had come from the enemy countries. The war had shown the weakness and imperfections of the Imperial system, and had impressed on each Dominion the nerd of an Imperial organisation that would meet s uc 'i a crisis as the wax had produced. Iho limierial mechanism must be made so perf-ct that the Empire need fear no foreign foe and no foreign trade rival.

The National Government. A great deal of criticism had been directed at the National Government in the r.. u rse of the debate. He had no hesitation in saying that the decision of I he party leaders to combine forces for the period of the war had been a blessing to the Dominion. Much had been done by the National Government that could not have been done bv a party Ministry. The leaders deserved the lasting gratitude of the community for sinking their political differences in order to carry on the business of the country. Any unprejudiced judge must admit that the National Government had been of inestimable benefit to the country. No Government could expect in war time to receive praise from all sections of the community. The clash of interests seemed to be inevitable, and the members of the National Government had never expeetcd to be able to please everybody. Mr. Herdman proceeded to refer to tho work dons by the National Government. He mentioned first tho wool purchase, and said that the Hon. W. Jl. S. MacDonald had carried a very heavy load of responsibility during the absence ot the party leaders. He had undertaken a very complicated business, ami handled it uncommonly well. Mr. Mac Donald had not stopped at wool, lie had dealt with the meat, purchase, had arramred In buy llie cheese, ond had regulated the price of butter. The National Government had interested itself also in sugar, and had saved the country in that respect fro-n a sad plight. The Colonial Sugar Ce-mimny eou'd have got a better price than New Zealand offered if it had sent: the sugar elsewhere, but the Government had been able to arrange a deal that, was very advantageous to the Dominion. Organisation of Labour. The Government had been accused of failing to organise the peep!? for war. A very important measure of organisation

had been undertaken under tho Military Servico Act. The Military Service Boards and also the National Efficiency .Board had dono much work ill the classification of industries and the protection of essential industries. Would the people who talked of national organisation sny that the Govei'iimcnt should control all tho labour in New Zealand and compel workers to movo about as units of an industrial army?

Mr. WiUy: Yes, if it is necessary. Mr. Herdman said tho difficulties of any such scheme would bo enormous. Already members of tho Houso had strongly objected to any altaratio.il in tho minimum wage fixed by the Arbitration Court iu any industry. Howwould they face a big scheme of labour organisation? Mr. Veitch (Wnngnnui): You don't want to organise labour that is already employed. Organise tho idle rich. Mr. Herdman: Are members prepared to go the length of organising all tho labour available in tho country? Mr. Witty: Idle labour. Mr. Herdman: "Organisation would have to be comprehensive." Ho realised fully that a very serious problem was going to arise when the Second Division was mobilised. It was difficult to see what the effect of sending away the Second Division men was going to be. If tho men were needed they must go. About that there could bo 110 doubt. It would be necessary for public men to consider how the business of the country could be carried 011 when the Second Division men had been called into the Forces. The Government must have money in order to carry on the war, it must maintain production in order to get money, and it must see that labour was available in order to maintain production. It would be necessary to have organisation, whether compulsory or voluntary he was not yet ready to 6ay. Mr. Herdman referred next to demobilisation, and the remarks made 011 tliTs subject, by Mr. Wilford. Much of tile organisation swrsrested by Mr. Wilfnrd was, he said, alrendv in existence. There was a central office in Wellington in touch with branches in different parts of New Zealand. These branches could b» multiplied as time went 011. These branches of the Discbaved Soldiers' Information Department worked in with the Labour Department. The system was effective, lie doubted whether there were more than 110 Ko''liers throughout New Zealand in nerd of employment. The rHut'ip]" the Department noted upon was that it was the dntv of tihe Sfo+e to heln a < r char-red' soldier to rid of 1 nv'itarv environment as speedilv as iwfliWo, and to fit him into n sn.itable niche in Hie civil 'ife of the communitv. TTe was not. at m-no-'if. to recommend tlm p=<ahlisl>ment Of snecial b'<iinin<* institutions for let'.irned soldiers lin'-th- disabled. Mrenr'v there „.o ro institution established —terhnieal schools —aiv which these men could be most conveniently taught. Enemies of tbr State. Difficulties had occurred regarding shipping, lie had always held f hat any man who pi'ovonted <i soldier from yetting to the front was an enemy of the State. Ho had always held that a man who interfered with tho dispatch of produce from tho country was an enemy oi ih(> State, that any man who interfered with any essential was an enemy of the State—an ally of Potsdam, and an ene.ny of England. Ho had always held that theso men should be treated as enemies, and some members of the Government had iiuirred odium beauto they had been treated as enemies. Mr. Payne: Yon must remember that there is such a thing as lilierly of speech in the British Constitution. Mr. Herdman: Freedom of speech! Yes. But when you get speech which* stirs men to strife, speech which, prevents men from going into camp and going to do their duly as soldiers; when you get speech to rouse 111011 to interfere with the carrying 011 of shipping so necessary for the good of the soldiers— is that liberty of speech? Hon. members: No, 110. Mr. Ilcrdnian: People have fihort memories, but those who are the chief actors in the drama do not c orgct. The people of I his country, generally speaking, have behaved with splendid spirit from the beginning of this wa,r up till the present time, (Hoar, hear.) Only a small proportion of the community ever interfered to interrupt the successful prosecution of tho war. . . . "I admire tho spirit of our people. We have given of our moii and of our produce, and will gjvu of them until tho sword is returned to its scabbard. I have watched a troopship coining home, and seen the men with smiles on their fuces. 1 have seen beardless men leaving this country with a song 011 their lips. And I have said to myself that despite all the tragedy of the business, despite all tho misery of tho war, despite the fact that you have all this enormous suffering, this country is growing in strength, the muscles of the people are growing stronger, their spirit is growing stronger. ' Hundreds o£ years henco tales will bo told to the glory ami honour of tho thousands of young men who left this country for the sake cf the principles 011 which it rests." (Applause.) The Reinforcements. Dr. H. T. J. THACivEU (Ghristchurch East) spoke of tho conferring of the honour of a higher status upon the Gover-nor-General, expressing Jus suspicion that it would nieau more gold braid, and "where gold braid exist.* in exuberance" there also was sure to be red tape. Ho advocated strongly tho return ot the Jlaiu Body meu to New Zealand, saying tnat we had enough men in England al-. ready not only to let the Alain Body men come bad;, but to supply reinlorcements for eighteen months to come. Dr. Thacker proceeded to urge that New Zealand was sending away more men than were required to reinforce the troops in tho neld." Tho total sti ength of the New Zeaalnd Army, including the units in Egypt and elsewnere, v.as about 25,0U0 men. Tho dead numbered 75011, and tho men returned • to New Zealand made a total of about 10,000. The De-' fenco Minister had stated that 74,000 meu had been sent away, while there were 'JOOO in camp, making a total of 83,000. If all the deductions were nade, it would be found, 011 tne Minister's ovn figures, that there were about 40.000 men in baud over and above the units in the field. Tho Minister admitted to having 15,000 men. iu the samps abroad. Where were the balance of the men? Tho fact was that the Government had in hand enough recruits for a very long time to come. 'The actual wastage over a period of thirty months, comprising dead and incapacitated, had been at the rate of 0000 men per year, and the Dominion was sending 2500 per month as reinforcements. That was not reasonable and not necessary. Dr. Tbaelcer added that there was 110 need to send tho Second Division men to the front, tie regarded' the postponement of the July month's ballot as ait indication that the Government was considering tho position. He believed tho Government was failing in its duty as far as tho cost of living was concerned. The cost of commodities should lave been kept down. Exploiters should have been suppressed, and an income tax at the rate of 45 per cent., above the limit of JiilOO should have been imposed to provide money for soldiers' dependants and others. Mr. T. W. RHODES (Thames) 'said that he saw 110 reason why New Zealand should continue to send forward reinforcements at the present rate. The position had never been made clear to the country, and the Government ought to present n frank statement. It appeaiv ed that the Government had more than 31,000 men in hand over and above the forces required to be maintained in the field. The longer the mobilisation ot the Second Division could bo delayed the better for the Dominion. The separation allowances and pensions would require (o be incrrasrd ill any ease. Referring to the cost of living, he said he was informed that the prices of certain'articles of common use were to be increased by 20 per cent, at the beginning of August. Tbe Board of Trade should interfere. Mr. Ma'spy: T hope you will tell the Hoard of\ Trad" what Hi" articles are. Mr. Rhodes said he hoped the National Government would have a long career even after the war was over. An Explanation. The RIGHT HON. W. F. MASSEY said he wished to refer again to a matter mentioned by the member for Hurunui I earlier in (ho day. He bad said then j that his secretary had informed Sir j Josoph Ward of an appointment with

tlie Second Division Leaguo deputation 011 the day before the deputation. The 6001'etary had sinco discovered Chat he had made a mistake. He had confused this deputation with another important deputation that took place on tho same day. The actual facts were that Sir Joseph Ward's secretary had been told verbally of the deputation, and that tho Sccond" Division League had undertaken to send written invitations to the Minister of Finance and tlie Minister of Defence. Mr. Massey did not feel that ho could blame himself at all for tho fact that the Minister of Finance hud not been present. "There has been a very unfair attempt to place nie in a false position," added Mr. Massey. "I have noticed what has been coins on. A very great deal of wire-pulling has been going on during the last week or two. Anybody can see it, and I am not going to put up with it. Perhaps members will understand what 1 mean in the very near future. It Mr. Forbes had come to mo a misunderstanding and a certain amount of unpleasantness would have been avoided. , Mr. Witty: There has been 110 wirepulling. All we want is fair play. We recogniso that Sir Joseph Ward is on an equal footing with you, and that on any deputation he should be there. Mr. Forbes explained that when he learned Sir Joseph Ward had uot been present at tho deputation he had raised the Question and had been informed by Sir Joseph Ward that, lie had known nothing about the matter. That was the reason why 110 had mentioned tho subject. SIB JOSEPH WARD thanked Mr Massey for his explanation. He had not known that Mr. Forbes was going to raise the question, but what Mr. Forbes had said was essentially correct. He bad not known that he was expected to be present at the deputation. He thought that the matter might now be allowed to drop. My. Massey said that lie would like the Houso to understand just how it had all happened. He had been very much pressed by deputations lately. During three afternoons of last week lie had been endeavouring to settle a strike in Wellington and had, not been able to attend to other business. He had taken the Second Division deputation at very short notice during the sitting of tho House owing to the desire of the league delegates to set away, and he had not known that they wished Sir Joseph Ward to be present. The Houso rose at 11 p.m.