PARLIAMENT IN SESSION

Dominion, Volume 10, Issue 3128, 5 July 1917, Page 6

PARLIAMENT IN SESSION

■ :: : IMPERIAL QUESTIONS DISCUSSION OF THE MINISTERS , ;;■/■■■■' STATEMENTS ' ; * \ EMPIRE PREFERENCE - FEARS ABOUT THE MEAT TRUST

The House of Representatives sat at fc.3o p.m. Mr. J. PAYNE' (Grey Lynn) gave notice (amid loud laughter) of his intention to ''introduce tho Political Corruption. Bill. He also raised a laugh by giving warning of the Suppression of Titles and the Abolition of Pomp and Ceremony ■Bill. Ho gave notice also of the Unregistered Nurses Begistration Bill and the Gas Act Amendment Bill. Mr. J. V. BKOWN (Napier) 'gave notice of the Napier High- School ■ Empowering BilL- ' I / FIRST READINGS. The following Bills were introduced and read a first time-.—Definition' of. {Time Bill (Mr. T. K. Sidey), Proportional Representation and Effective Voting Bill, Dominion State Bank Bill, Commercial Trusts Amendment Bill, and the Police Force Amendment Bill (air in the name of Mr. Vcitch). Tho ,<Registration of Business Names Bill Was introduced by Governor's Message, and read a first time.

EMPIRE QUESTIONS DEBATE IN THE HOUSE. I MEMBEKS DISCUSS LEADERS , SPEECHES. In cr.der to give members an opportunity of discussing , the matters covered by the- Finance Minister and himself, Mr. MASSEY/tabled a paper dealing wfui the work of the War Contingent Association,' and submitted the usual motion Ihiif the paper lie printed. Mr. liasBey said that it must bo understood that, this debate innst end that day. tt would not be possible to postpone the lddress-in-Reply beyond Thursday.

The Member for Hutt. Mr. T. M. AVILFOKD (Hutt) opened Ihe debate. He said that he considered the debate would be ono of the most important that had ever been held in the House, and that the events to which the Prime Minister and Sir Joseph Ward had referred marked v the beginning of/a new era in. the Empire's history '. He referred very , briefly, to Imperial preference and the Imperial federation ideal, &nd then went on to discuss in more detail the necessity for the colonies haviDg a voico in Imperial foreign policy. The most immediate concern of New Zealand, ho said, - was as to the future of tho islands of the Pacific. In the past we had tliTown away islands, to countries which' had later become our eßemies,. and the possession of these islands—Heligoland, Corfu; and others—by enemy countries was a soruco of great embarrassment to the nation now. British statesmen, never had in the past understood world politics. In the future there might be a confederation of the islands of the-Pacific, or they might be grouped under. Australasian control. The of these islands, and the determination of their future would in.volve many extremely difficult questions. In/Europe he urged ;that the most important thing to be dono lvns the establishment of a Slav State in the Balkans, in order that it might no longer be posGermany to play her game by Eettirig one Balkan nation against another. -• Eor the first time this country was allowed to become a junior partner in the jjefence of the Empire, and there coul'd Tie no doubt that in future ire should have to bear part of the burden of Empire defence. - One of his ideas ■was that the submarine menace would be. met by the use of cargo-carrying nn-der-water craft, very 'much bigger, than the Deutschland. In tho. Empire there must be a fiscal policy to meet tho needs ■of every unit of the Empire, with a system of preference. Most important of all was the necessity for the stimulation land maintenance of maximum efficiency, commercial and industrial, all over the Empire.

Our Meat in England. ' Mr. A. G. MALCOLM (Clutha) referred . first to the operations of the Moat Trust. Hβ understood, he 6aid, that tile Imperial Government requisitioned all New Zealand's meat, but later retiirne" to the agents, of, the exporters that portion of the mutton and lamb not required for Imperial purposes. Tho Prime Minister explained that the surplus meat was not handed to the agents of the exporters. It was turned over to certain firms, which had handled New Zealand meat'before the war, and had been threatened with tho loss of their business connection when the requisitioning scheme eamo into'operation. There was an impression in New Zealand that the Meat Trust was in the Sabit of buying meat in tho. Dominion, especially lamb, sending it to London, and having it sold by agents there. That was not quite tho case: A check ■was provided 'by the fact that the New Zealand meat .went all o'ver Ejoylana.- It >w&nt to.retailers in almost overy city of England, and if any of these retailers considered that they wero not getting their fair share of the meat that was available for consumption in England they .were able to, place their complaint before a special officer of the Board of Trade, who would seo that a fair distribution took place. The wholesale price of tho meat was fixed by tho Board of Trade. The retail price had not yet been fixed, Tint he understood that tho Board of Trade intended to fix the retail price in tho near future. ■ ,

Mr. Malcolm suggested that the Prime Minister should make a full and detailed statement' on tho subject for the information of the New Zealand farmers. Hβ proceeded to refer to fiscal problems. Ho did not believe, he said, that the people of New Zealand would be ready to make great tariff concessions to the tfnited/Kihgdom or that they would wish to see the cost of living raised to tho masses of tho British people by the imposition of duties. Imperial self-suffi-ciency was a dream that could not bo {realised. No imports from foreign countries would moan no exports to foreign countries. No country could afford to cut itself off from trade with other lands. He insisted that the rulers of tlie British Empire must "think universally" mid not merely "Imperially." The British race held its vast territories in trust for the world, and experience. had proved l>eyond all doubt that it paid the raco to recognise that fact. What would have been the position of Britain in the present war if it had previously incurred the enmity of the outside world by refusing foreign nations tho privileges of trade? Mr.'Malcolm referred to the cnor311OUS wealth accumulated by Britain under a free-trado policy. He proceeded to advocate Imperial federation, with a central Parliament endowed with certain rights of administration and taxation. Hβ saw no objection to a written constitution as to tho taxing of Dominions for Imperial purposes by an Imperial body. The advocates of Imperial federation were following a well-beaten path. The whole tendency of affairs at present was centrifugal, and there would be danger to the unity of tho Empire in the future if that unity was not secured by the ■ieTeiopjuejlt of. a suitable organisation.

Overseas Representatives at Downing Street. Mr. E. NEWAiAjn (Eangitikei) expressed the opinion that the presence of tlio representatives of the Dominion at Uie Imperial Conference was o.ne of the greatest events in tlio history oi tue clmpirc. Now Zealand was entitled to a voice in .the government of the Empire. Hβ thought Unit beiore the end of imperial representation came New Zealand and the rest of the Dominions would be able to elect their representatives on the Imperial Cabinet, Tnat might not takeplace in the next few years, but eventually it would come about. The time had come when representatives of the Dominions must reside on tho spot wiiero great questions were decided. Never again, would great nations be brought into war without being consulted, (liear, hear.) Tho men of Australia and Kew Zealand had proved that fact on Gallipoli and in France. '(Hear, hear.) He himself had been bred as a I'reetrader. He had been brought up to believe that the best possible economic system was put-and-out Freetrader, but he had lately altered eoveral of his opinoins. If arrangements could bo entered into now whereby -wo could send all our products ~ into the United States, it would be of enormous advantage to us. America had come into the war, and it would be of value to British Dominions in this part of the world if ehe took part.in the commercial war as she intended to do in the way of military effort. Sir Joseph Ward had referred to the matter of preference. It was his opinion that if preference were not accorded by the Old Country the whole system would be a farce. He pleaded strongly that Ger- 1 many , should not have any chance of establishing naval bases in the Pacific. _In days to come the British might have otnor enemies—there was a menace which he must not talk about-but lie would Fay that if the islands of the Pacific were not to be kept in British hands they ought to be handed to the United States. (Hear, hear.) ' :

Preference Experiment. Mr. L. M. ISITT (Christchureh North; referred to the imperial Coulerence as a great historical event, as it marked the Mrst occasion on which Dominion Ministers met Imperial .Ministers on a basis of equality. This fusion of all parts of the Empire had been beaten out by the fire of Hun fury on the anvils of God. They all knew the end that was to be attained—Empire federation—and as the member for Uutha had said, there was danger in. delay. .The time must come shortly when the most conservative man would realise that it was no longer possible for the whole world-wide Empire to bo ruled by some 40,000,000 people livin" in Great Britain. But there was a danger that this federation might bo rendered impossible by the question of preferential tariff. A thoughtful man must recognise that preference must be for the Motherland a vory risky experiment. It , -, might be a great succes, but on the other -hand it might wreck the whole Constitution of the Empire. He looked with some, amusement on the li»ht and airy way in which some business men regarded the question of preference. They forgot that the benefit accruing to New Zealand would be at the expense of Britain, and tbey forgot that differentiation between British and nonBritish nations would tell against many of our Allies. We had no right to make preference the only condition on which we should enter the Imperial federation. We owed everything to Great.. Britain. All we had we had got from Britain, and we had no right to exact anything from Britain. If, in the long run, Britain said that she was umable to give, effect . to this great experiment of preference we would have nought to demand that the Old Country shonld stand to it. He strongly advocated, tho establishment of State-controlled inter-Domuuon. cables as a means of keeping the Empire trade .within the Empire. He was essentially in favour of retaining tho jSernum colonies occupied since the outbreak of war. To allow Germany to reoccupy territory which had been taken by our !»*»««"- ing for liberty and civilisation would DR a crime.

Grave Position ; Ahead. Dγ A. .IV.' o>ellmgtouj Kasu courwsed ' disappointment tnau Clio leaders nad not consented to tho holding « a secret session. The shortage ot saipIpvas a burning lueeuon, and in consMuence of this mortage i\ow Zealand Sonttoiace a very serious position. IS^JSr^rTco^^ Prime Minister should uiako a definite statement io tho country as to the actual Sato of affairs. . .What was the use ot I.l'ikiii" butter and cheese it we could not it? in killing and freezing lamb it tho Imperial Government wanted only beet and mutton? If tho stuff could iiot.be got away from here it would only bo a greater source of trouble if it were produced. That made a statement from tho Prime Minister all the more necessary, leoplo in England, as he had found hinise 1, took a' far more serious view, ot the war than people in New Zealand took, and it was duo to tho people of , tho Dominion that the Ministry should lay tho real truth before them, lucre was no use of 'Ministers talking about the war euding in a few months' time. Iho end was not yet in sight, and the whole' Empire must be prepared for a very long war. The English people wanted to be told the truth, and it had been the policy of tho Lloyd Georgo Ciovernmen to give them the truth. The same thin" should be done in New Zealand, so that the people of tho .Dominion should bo able to steel themselves to the fact that tho end of the war was yet iar off, and realise that tho task of the boys who were sheddijig their blood oil tho battlefields was not yet finished.

War Profits. Mr. 6. WITTY (lliccarton) snid that the Ministers' speeches had suggested to him thut a great dejil of effort had been devoted to getfing war profits for New Zealand. Was the Dominion playing tho game in requiring the people of the United Kingdom to pay increased prices lor products in time of war? A suggestion that cheese prices should bo iucri-iijed because Canada's prices were a bit higher than New Zealand's had been greeted with "hear, hears" all over the House. It seemed that Now Zealand was niakiii" as much money as possible, and the profits were going into tlie pockets of a comparatively lew people. Those who made tiie profits were the first to ask lor exemption from.military service oil tho plea that they Vere required to look after their properties. New Zealand's own people were not being treated fairly in regard to meat and butter, ihey had "sent a', bigger proportion of men to the front than the people ol any other Dominion, but they were not allowed to use any part of tho vast quantities of loud accumulated in the stores. Mr. Witty proceeded to .refer to Defence matters. He stated that returned soldiers had been handed their discharges before they left the ships.

Hon. J. Allen: No soldier Jms over been discharged on tko ship. Mr. Witty: "I will give you a cape." The member proceeded to urge that .the British people should receive Now Zealand meat at the landed cost. Bis profile had been made by certain people at tlio British end. Heat was delivered in tho shops at 10d. a pound and sold at Is. 10(1.

Mr. Massey: You will find within ;i day or two that the Food Controller has limited the retail price of our meat. , Mr. Witty said there had been exploitation in connection witli the meat Ho repeated that it was not creditable to New Zealand that fit tho| present cri-tical-juncture it-gloried in having secured largely increased prices for its products at tho expense of the British •nation.

• General Haig's "Goal." Dr. THACKEiI (Christehurch East) referred to the entry of, .the United States into the war,' and paid a tribute to the success of the Americans in Holds of industrial organisation and the manufacture of munitions. New Zealand, which had great manufacturing possibilities, outfht to look to America for lessons when tho war was over. He believed tho end of the war was in sight. Ino Germans were "in. their own tweutyfivo," and presently General Haig would "kick a goal." New Zealand should be preparing for tho period of demobilisation, and he suggested that the bovernir.ont should lose no time in arranging for the employment of returned "«!U.»i industry and manufacture. He would liKo to see discharged British soldiers induced .to come to Now Zealand. Dr. Thacker proceeded to refer to pension matters. He said that he knew of a widowed mother, who. had been given a pension of 10s. a week, whereas her son, before going to his death at Galhpoli, had allowed her £3 a week.

Plea For Second Division. Mr. C. E. STA*i'HAM (Dunedin Central) said he had not listened with much pleasure to' the recital of the big prices New Zealand had been able to secure for fier produce He had felt all along that tho Government should take over the whole of the produce at fair PM-wjir prices, and that any profit made by/the Government should go towards the [cost of the war. Caution was needed in any discussion of Imperial reorganisation. Ho thought there was an unjustifiable tendency to assume that New. Zealand had como of a;e.. The fact was that she ivas still very youthful and was not in a position to protect her own interests unaided, or to exercise very much influence in Imperial affairs. He felt strongly that it would be a mistake to force any rigid constitution en the Empire. Mr. Statham proceeded to appeal for improved' pensions and allowances in connection with the impending mobilisation of tho Second Division.

The Shipping Fusion. Mr. C. H. POOLE (Auckland West) said that although he recognised that the visit of . the Ministers to the Old Country must have been of great value to tho Dominion, he was sorry that they would not take members further- into their confidence as to what had happened. There was a great movement now in Britain towards a self-reliant policy, but self-reliance would have far-reaching effects in other parts of the Empire. Hβ had been in Great Britain recently, and he had seen that her resources were not properly developed, so that the vcountry was dependent upon the outside world for her food supplies. Tho case was entirely different in Germany.' where every effort was made to make the country supply its own needs. - 'Ihe productivity ol -Britain would soon bo greatly increased, and d«er forests and grouse lands would be made to grow When Britain learnt the policy or' seli-rehance tne •statesmen oi our own country would have u> think sernously, because Britain would not then need tUe produce which we, in her hour of need, nad refused to "ive iier except at a greatly increased cost. He was not much of a propnei, bwc he knew uiat the <iay was soon going to dawn when the Federal form ol government would be adopted in Great Britain, so that the" House of Commons would no longer be so greatly concerned with international affairs that it could not look after domestic matters, uiid that change would have' a. very great eifect throughout the Empire.. H« believed that JN'ow Zealand should do her utmost ior we Empire in this great time of crisis, but he must Varn tlio Ministry that if the country were depleted of its manhood, as might happen if the constant drain went on, there was no use looking to immigration, to make good the wastage. (Hear, hear.) He made a protest against the absorption of the Union Steam Ship Company by the P. and 0. Company, a concern whicli had made its great wealth out of the richness of the Orient by the.use of iHpaid lascar seamen. • If the Government were not very careful New Zealand would see the vessels of the company it had itself made rich and powerful placed in the British register and manned by crows earning only half thp wages now paid, and New Zealand would be left with only a. few second-rate' ships. , What return was the Dominion to get for what 'was really a most costly surrender? Mr. J. I'AYNE (Grey .Lynn) said that after the war there would be no sentiment in business, and 'he therefore advised caution regarding any proposals lor Imperial preference. He reiterated that I he.was as strong an unti-conscriptionist as, he had ever been.

The Meat Trust. Mr. V., H. REED (Bay of Islands) said he-wished to refer ouly. to one matter— the Meat .Trust—and lie was sorry tho Ministers had not brought back a more definite plan of attack on the trust. ThoMinister of .Finance had said that the attack must be made in the Homo markets. His own opinion was that wo should fight the trust hero as well as at Home. It should be made illegal for any freezing works to bo owned by share, holders other than Now Zealanders. Wo should attack them through the shipping. Legislation should. bo enacted to turn the trust out. of New Zealand, and to prevent it from ever operating here. Ho believed that the trust was here already, aiul he had seen its influence. The Government should supervise the working of freezing -works to securo tho local ownership of all freezing works. Hβ _ did not wish to see New Zealand get into tho position of Argentina, which was throttled by the trust.

' Mr. Massey Replies. Tho EIGHT HON. W. h\ MASSEY re. plying, «aid that he proposed to reler tho Meat Trust question to a, committee, pos. sibly a. special committee, and he would bo willing ai'tev tho inquiry to do what seemed best. At the other end, the Imperial Board of Trade had taken the matter in hand, but it was impossible to do anything during the war. SVith regard to double incoino tax lie held that New Zealand was unlike the Oiu Country. This was a young country, requiring outside capital for a very long time for development. Everything should be done to encourage investment in this country. If a man in Britain had money invested in New Zealand, and ho found that he was taxed here—and we had a right to tax income where it was earned—and that. it was also taxed at Home, the man would do ono of several things. Ho would either endeavour to securo extra profit or extra rate of interest, a higher return to make up for tho double income tax, or ho would withdraw his capital. At any rato, ho would probably not invest anymore. Tho matter had been represented to the British authorities at Homo by tho Finance Minister, and would receive attention, but not until after the war. The matter was one of tho greatest importance to the State.

Defence of Preference. Referring to the question of preference, he said that there seemed to lie an impression that preference would increase tho cost of certain articles. in the countries where preference was in force. If Britain gave preference to tho Dominions it did not follow inevitably that the price of our products would bo raised to the people at Home. Mr. Malcolm: What would be tlie use of it otherwise? ' ,- Mr. Sassey: "I don't agree with that view." One of tho results of preference would be to increase production. "Wo wore told officially that there were )3,nflO,ffi)o acres of wheat land in Canada untouched at present. let us suppose that the Parliament of Britain said to the farmers of Canada "We are going to give you a preference of, a shilling a bushel on tho wheat that you produce."

Tho effect of that would bo to encourage tho amount of wheat grown for export to Britain. lie went on to argue that soon tho supply would uomo up to tho demand, and then an increase in price would bo imnossible. Whether ire were üblo to iirrange for -preferencewith Britain or not, it would not make the slightest difference to the loyalty of the citizens of this country to tho Mother Country.

The Empire mint do something lo fill up its empty spaces, ndded Mr. Miissoy. If the British people did not fill Che empty lauds, then other nations will wish to step in.

,More About Meat. Tho Prime Minister proceeded to refer to meat, and read a' cablegram recently received from tho High Commissioner as follows:—"No reason to suspect collusion, between eteamship companies nominally trading to New Zealand and American meat firms. Voyages to Argentine and America all undertaken under instructions of Skipping Controller in. order to I accelerate Army beef supplies by taking advantage of shorter voyages. No .excessive profits being made on New Zealand' meat except by retailers who are uncontrolled. Reason for high prices is that New Zealand meat is sold with other frozen meat, of which the price is higher. Home-killed mutton has been sold, as high as 2s. per pound." The' message added that the retail prico of New Zealand mutton in Juno was Is. 6d. per pound. Mr. Massey referred briefly to the problems of Imperial organisation, and, in conclusion mentioned that ; be was speaking on "Independence Day, an anniversary of great importance to the United States. Tho British and the Americans were the same people, and tho recognition of their kinship had been forced upon them by the grent war. Their association was a guarantee of the triumph of the principles for which .tho democratic peoples stood. This 'closed the debate. The House rose at 11.5 p.m.