PARLIAMENT

Dominion, Volume 9, Issue 2829, 21 July 1916, Page 6

PARLIAMENT

COUNCIL REFORM

EARLY CLOSING ISSUE

AND OTHER WAR PROBLEMS

The Legislative Council met at 2.30 p.m.

The Hon. O. Samuel presided in the absence of the Speaker. Silt FRANCIS J3ELL moved the second reading of tho Legislative Council Amendment Bill. He said he must go back into the history of the Act now on the statute book in order more dearly to define the reasons for the present Bill. The constitution of the Legislative Council as an elective body, elected on proportional representation by large electorates, was a plank in the platform of the Reform Party at the 1911 elections. This pledge they began to carry out with all dispatch, and the Act was put on the statute book. From that position Mr. Massey and his Government had never swerved, and thejwere just as unitedly in support ol' an j eleotive Upper .House as ever tliev had been, l'n order to get , tho measure through the Legislative Cotoicil the Government had to make certain' appointments to the Council, but it had refrained as far as possible from exorcising that power. In 1911, after the Bill had been twice defeated, the Government abandoned the idea of getting the Bill through tho Council as then constituted, and tho Government called ton now members to the Council, of whoso opinions the Ministry wero fairly well assured. In l!)li .tho Bill became law, but its coruiug into operation was delayed until after the election could be held in that year. This left it open to the country to declare, against tho Bill, and open to any new Government which might bo returned to power as the result of the election to appoint members to tho Council aud so defeat the Bill in a constitutional v aj'. But the result of tho 1911 election was an almost even division of parties, and tho National Cabinet was formed in 1915. Half of tho members of that Cabinet, thoso who were members of 'tho Massey Government, wero pledged to the Legislative Council Act, and tho other moiety of the Cabinet was just as irretrievably pledged against the Bill. In the session of 1915 the coming into operation of the Act was fixed, by Act at September ], 1917, but on the understanding that it might appear before that date what Government was to be in power. Now the National Government seemed likely to remain in office lintil 1917, and as half of that Government opposed tho Act, the Aot could not coino into forco if tho National Government was to remain in office. It was therefore proposed that tho first Council election should not bo held until after tho (lato of next goneral election, 1917. Disappointed as ho was that the Act was not to be tried for some time longer, ho realised that postponement was necessary. Every member of Parliament who agreed to the formation of a National Cabinet must be bound by the arrangement made by- tho leaders of the rival parties that tho coming into operation of tho Aot should be this being a condition without which the National Government could not have been formed. An Amendment. Tho Hon. J. BARR moved an amendment to the motion: — <ir lhat all tho words after 'that' be omitted with tho object of substituting', the following words:—lt is desirable that tho Legislative Council Act, 1911, bo repealed." Ho declared that the subject of Council reform was scarcely referred to by candidates of the Massey Party at tho 1911 elections, and that an elective Upper House was not in fact a plank in tho platform of the Reform Party. Very few candidates over referred to it, and the people of tho country took no interest in the question. No member the Council had any knowledge or any concern with the pact between the parties in Parliament when the National Cabinet was formed. He argued against an elective Second Chamber, and contended that it would be preforablo to Tepeal tho Act rather than to postpone it. The Price Too High? Tho Hon. J. T. PAUL said that he believed that in tho future ono of the tilings that would stand to tho credit of the Reform Government would bo tho Logislativo Council Act. He. was not au apologist for Mr. Massey and his party, but he hoped he had enough loyalty in his composition to give proper credit to those people who had put forward a measure of real progress. Ho expressed opinions in favour of an elective Upper House. He had never been in favour, of tlio formation of the National Government, and ho believed the general opinion of J tho country was coming round to the view that tho price being paid for the continued existence ox tne National Government was too great a price to pay. He believed that either party would iiave given the country better government than the present National Government had given. ' An hon. member: If eitiier party could have held office. ■Mr. Paul said he believed the National Government was as it must bulwark of conservatism. He denied the accuracy,'of the statement that the people were not interested in the reform of the Legislative Council, which had been a plank in the platforms of both parties. The Reform Party had shown its sincerity about the business by putting the Act on the Statute Book. The Liberal Party, supposed to be against the 4.ct, had vet not darea to make the repeal of the Act a, plank in their last election platform. Much as lie disliked the Bill now before the House ho would vote for it. The postponement- of the Act "was necessary as part of .the bargain made between the parties, but tie believed that the making of that bargain was'a betraval of the democracy ot this country. He believed that every legislator should be elected, and be directly responsible to the people. 'He hoped the amendment would be defeated.

* A War Measure Only. The Hon. H. 1". WIGRAM said he regretted that the discussion was-turning on the' merits of the Legislative Council Aot. He regarded the Bill now before the Council as a war measure to keep party politics in the background, and to allow the National Government to remain in office during the period of tho Hi(J. A. T. MAGINMTY said he had been at first disposed to' support the amendment because he lnid felt somewhat aggrieved 'that the Act was not ;o be put into force. However, the statement of the Leader of the Council had convinced him that thero was reason for the postponement, and lie had determined to support the Bill. Tho Hon. R. MOORE said he looked upon tho Bill as the natural sequence of the Act of last session. Ho saw no possibility of any other course being followed than that proposed in tho Bill. He claimed 'that the Prime Minister and his party were sincere in their advocacy of reform of the Council—a fact w'.ucti was demonstrated by their persisting .with the legislation to provide for it in tho face of strenuous opposition offered to it. And the question had- been actively discussed at the election of 19U. Tho Hon. G. CARSON challenged Mr. Paul's statoment that the postponement of the Act was a betrayal of the democracy. Ho had personally been very anxious that the National Government should bo formed daring tho war, and tho postponement of tho coming into operation of tho Act was a necessary condition precedent to its formation. He did not claim that tho' National Government was ]>erfcct, but it was the best Government tho country could have niltier tho circumstances prevailing. He was strongly in favour of an, elective tipper House, and he had boon for very many years.

Bargain Should Not Havo Been Made. SIR WILLIAM HALL-JOiS'ES said he did not like the Bill. Tho question of reform of tho Council had been a live question for many years. He had advocated au elective Upper ITouse a quarter of a century ago, when ho mado has first political speech. Ho would liko 'to know from tho Minister 'whothcr there had been any other bargaining previously to tho formation of tho National Government. Ho had heard, for instaace, that

it had been' agreed that there was to'ha no general election until six months after tho end of the war! If this should ba arranged, ttien- he hoped that all honourable members who such an unconstitutional proposal would get their deserts when at length they did meet the electors. (Hear, hear.) Sir Francis Bell: What would you do if you were in my position? Sir William Hall-Jouos said he hardly ventured to express an opinion, ou this question. His opinion was that the two parties represented in the Government had no right to bargain away something which ninety-live per cent, oi' the people wanted. Ho was afraid that the effect of these postponements miglit mean the final loss of the very desirable reform. He would be no party to the carrying out; of a bargain which he thought snould never have been made. He would vote to maintain the present position. The Hon. W. 13EEHAN said he 'l.acl always supported a nomiuativo Upper House. He would have to vote for the amendment. The debate was adjourned on the , motion of the Hon. G. Jones, and the Council rose at. 4.55 p.m.

N THE HOUSE

The House of Representatives mefc-'at 2.30 p.m. VENEREAL DISEASE. The Hon. G. W. RUSSELL (Minister of Public Health) laid ou the table a copy of his speech delivered the previous evening on tiie su'- ; ect of venereal disease, and asked that it be printed in order that it should be widely circulated. Mr. A. H. HINDMAESH (Wellington South) remarked that a pamphlet on the subject had been written by Professor D. A. Welch, of Sydney University, and 25,000 copies distributed by tho Y.M.C.A. in Australia to the troops there. Would it not 1)9 wise, he said, to get the Y.M.C.A. to secure 10,000 copies for distribution in New Zealand? This pamphlet would probably bo more worth printing than some of the matter that was proposed to bo printed. Dr. A. K. NEWMAN (Wellington Hast) held that there was 110 need for a pamphlet. At tho camps nil the apparatus needed for the men was available. Tho meu got no end of instruction in tho matter, aud thero was no need to go to further largo expense and print this matter. : Tbo teachings of the Imperial and Indian Armies wero available, and everything was done for the men. Tho Hon. R. H. RHODES (Ellesmere) said that ho had no objection to the hon. member's speech being circulated, but ho would ask if a pamphlet was not' already being prepared for circulation. While ho was in Egypt lie corresponded with the Minister of Defence, and suggested that a pamphlet on this matter should be prepared. He understood that instructions had been given to prepare such a pamphlet, and that General Henderson had the matter now ready foi printing. A number of members spoke congratulating the Minister upon his speech, after which the Minister ■_ replied at length, and the motion to print the paper waa carried.

WAR REGULATIONS - SIX O'CLOCK CLOSING ISSUE '' ' DEBATE CONTINUED Tho debate on the second reading of the War Regulations Act Amendment Bill was resumed. . Mr. G. J. ANDERSON (Mataura) said that he was. not in favour of State control of the liquor traffic. Those who supported early closing had no desire to attempt to molly-coddle the soldiers, who wero a very sober lot of men on the whole. As to whether the consumption of liquor would bo lessened if the hotels wero closed at an earlier hour than now he could say that in Mataura. and Invercargill districts the sale of liquor had materially decreased under No-License, despite facilities afforded for its purchase by breweries. Ho quoted figures to show that according to returns for 1914 the average consumption of liquor per head of adult population (taking the electoral rolls as the basis) was 21 gallons in license areas as against only a little over three gallons per head in No-License 'areas. The figures proved clcarly that the closing of hotels decreased drinking. Sir. Wilford: Do not people drink in their own homes instead of in the hotels?

ilr. Anderson said that whilst there were undoubtedly many "keg parties," the drinking in homes was not so great as was often represented. He had previously voted for license, but aiter seeing (ho effect of A T o-License he had voted for the latter ever since. He would support a reduction of hotel hours when the vote was taken. He was prepared to compromise by accepting eight o'clock. In regard to compensation, he thought an arrangement should be made bebveen the landlords and tenants, but there was no reason why- any compensation should be paid. He commended the remarks made on the subject of venereal disease by the Minister of Public Health.

Curtailment of Hours. Mr. C. A. WILKINSON (Bgmont) said he was not a Prohibitionist, but he believed in some curtailment of the hours for the sale of liquor. The Bill provided for anti-diouting, and he couJd see no reason why" they should not go a step further, iiis support of early closing was based on economic grounds. Ho thought that hotels should pay a higher license fee. The present charge of M 2 a year was altogether too small. The State should collect the fees, which should be on a graduated scale, and divided between the Government and the local bodies. He thought, also, that the beer duty should be increased.- At present a man had to pay v a tax of 35. ? 6d. on a pound of tobacco, but he had to drink a hundred pounds weight of beer before he contributed the sajue amount to the revenue. He thought that twelve hours a day was sufficient for the sale of liquor, but the question was when the twelve hours should start. He had done his bit to. bring about a compromise in this matter, and he hoped that a compromise would yet be arranged. If tie nours were not curtailed in the Bill an attempt' would be made to obtain a referendum. The trade would be well advised to agree to a compromise, as there was no doubt as to what the result of a referendum would be, Mr. Wilford: How can you move for a referendum? It would bo an appropriation clause, as the cost would be .£BO,OOO or .£IO,OOO. ' t ' , . Mr. Wilkinson: I cannot say how it would be done, but the House, I understand, can indicate its wishes: Ho referred to what had been dona in regard to early closing in Britain and Australia. ~ .Mr. Herdman: Iu Adelaide ■'they hav« closed the hotols at 6 o'clock, but now there is nioro drinking there 'than ever. Mr. Wilkinson: Well, that should suit t-lie trade! Ho was convinced that if the hotels were closed at 8 o'clock there would be less disorder and less drunkenness. He hoped' that the Government would reconsider the matter and make some provision in the Bill.

• - A Charge Repudiated. 111-. C. E. STATHAM (Dunediu Central) spoke regarding a charge that bad been made against hiui in connection with the "talking , out" of the report of the II to Z Committee. He asked whether Mr. Isitt really thought that . ho took part in the discussion with the intention of "talking .out" tho report? Mr. Isitt: I know that.your Whip, Mr. Diokson, was travelling round the Houbb getting members to speak. Mr. Statham: I took no part whatever in any talking out. Mr. Isitt: I accept your statement. Mr. Statham: Yet the same evening someone sent a telegram to Dunedin 6tatinß that I and six others had talked otft the report. He had merely given a, resume of what took place before lha Committee. In referring to what had been said in ovidcuce regarding the soldiers, he said ho regretted that anyone should have referred to some of the soldiers as "sodden lumps of flesh." As . to compensation, some of the witnesses i before tho; Committee hail expressed tho opinion tliat compensation should be given. It was not fair that in the middle of the three years' term they should inflict a loss on the hotelkeepers by closing thoir houses earlier without paying compensation. Mr. Isitt: Was it done when '.lw hours were reduced from eleven to teii? Mr. Statham: If .wrong wore done then it ie no reason why wrong should to done now.

Mr. Isitt: I do not agree-that it was wrong then. Mr. 'Statham urged that a restrictive tas should be placed opon liquor at its source.: This would mean that everybody would bear a portion of the burden. For instance, instead of paying 6s. for a bottle of whisky they might pay 9s. A member: Make it Ss. Mr. Statham: We might make it 9a A member: Too much! Mr. Statham said that -under his proposal the loss would be fairly distributed, and .thero would lie a reduction in drinking A Vigorous Advocate. Mr. L. M. . ISITT (Christchurch North), replying to Mr. - Statham,: said ' that he . had no connection with the "Vanguard," and had not contributed to it for three.years.' He accepted Mr. Statham's assurance that > lio did not know what was goii)£ 'oh,, but lie. maintained that those associated with him were fully' advised of the scheme, j and tho last speaker on that day was asked to "carry on" till 5.30, when tho roport was "talked out." Mr. Statham complained of misrepresentation, but wah.he himself freo of the-same fault] particularly in his .reforonco to thp remark made to tho Committee that 6ome soldiers became "drink-sodden lumps of flesh"? This referred to tho mon going to the Soldiers' Club after the hotels closed, and . tho, context of the phrase should have beon given. Mr. Isitt congratulated the Minister of Public Health upon his speech upon venereal disease, and went on to arguo that there was a. very close connection between drink and venereal disease. If they really desired to preserve the health. of the soldiers it was .their duty to lessen their' toniptation by. reducing the. hours for the retail salo of liquor. Ho appreciated the fine character of tho soldiers, but upon one occasion ho himself saw between 70 and 80 men under the influence of liquor, while a corporal assured him that in two . trains J there wero nearly 250 men under the. in- j iluonce-of liquor. .He protested against tho influences that were at' work to "hinder tho Legislature from limiting the sale, of liquor. Various .officers had assured hiin that the ■ efficiency iof the , soldierswas affected "ten per cent, by liquor. But this question, did not only' aft'cct the soldier: it concerned the wholo ooonomic so-jition of tho Dpminion., It was not patriotic to ask t!» women of the country , to givo up their men and at the. same time- seek to protect tho. financial-inter-, tsts of tho trade* from. tlio slightest dislurbance. The evidence of Professor Blxlsord before the committee had been.carctuHy left alone- by the . advocates of liquor. He had said, that it was the bounden duty, of the Empire to. economise. Should we not begin at.the chief sources of waste, which wero drinking and. gambling, each of vwhich evil consumed j54.000.0d1) a year? Most men admitted, that, to shorten the hours of. hotels would do; good, but it was liiged in defence that to do eo would bB to work.injtirr to tho lioensco: It ; was even olaiuied that to close the hotels .at 6ix . o'clockwould involve the trado in a loss of '.£1,200,000, but, this>. was, merely extravagance. ; The specoh of tho. Attorney-.-Gcneral was full of special' pleading for tho trade, and lie-was surprised at this. Tho "scrap of paper" referred to. as between tho licensee and tho country was not a contract, but merely a permit., That 1 liceiise.-had already been modified ■ at various : times,- and if the same powfer of: modification were exorcised now no* special caso for " compensation could .bo ■ made out. ,If the wholesale branch of the trade benefited by . tho • changed conditions, then it should bo more heavily-, taxed, . and ; an. adjustment;-made with tho retail branch. v .,,., , Too Much Coercion. ■:

: Dr. A. K. iNEWIIiIN East) said - it seemed . to - him that tho' Bill was'the most important' Bill of the ' session, with the exception of tho Mili-. tary Servico Bill. Referring to the 6ub-' ject" of venereal/disease, he complimented tlio Minister on the. matter of his speech, but ho (Dr. Newman) , did liot agree with the general frequently expressed - opinion ; that ' these "diseases . wero ■rife. 'The diseases, we're 'not 'nearly so 'prevalent as they'were in tho'old countries. But' 'the :: ■ 'proposals' were full of coercion.'One of the clauses was an insult to.'evejj lwbman; in' New "Zbaland;.; '' It "was a/" wrbiig'xlause. -It'. 1 virtually '.rc-'onactetT the. C.D.. Act./;• Tho Minister "Was "going 'the way --to work to stamp the diseaso out,; and there '< was; a right way by. which ho could do much good,work. For the administration of any'such legislation there should be women Magistrates and wbmon police. It was quite wrong, that, tho administra-. tioii "of the Act should be left wholly, to .men police. Ho proposed : to /divide the. House, on tho c.laliso in tho Bill dealing with this ; subject,. becnuso. lie did not believe in; it. ; He'..was.../strongly, ofopinion .that something. niQre . should have been proposed \ io. curtail the sale of liquor than 'was. ..contained in tho Bill. .. One clause: provided .that women should not. be served' with, liquor in hotels.' . .That was /quite : right. But why should men be allowed to.get liquor in bars if the", privilege /was: denied to wonien? ' This was ' unfair,/' ' He upbraided the Government for'having refused to take any action to' reduce the consumption of. liquor, Tho Government had not even taxed, liquor enough. Although fivo millions, more taxation had been put-upon the people, the added taxation on beer /was -almost nil. ' Hebelieved that there was'a general opinion in all ranks of sooiety, all over' New Zealand that the hours for fte sale of liquor should be reduced. If the Houso would not reduce the hours;. it could m least insist upon a referendum, and leave the whole question for determination by tho people. It was idle to say-that there was no drunkenness in New Zealand. There wero all too ' many' evidences of it in any town in our country. Enemy of "Mr. Booze." Mr. P. C. WEBB (Grey) said he had always regarded "Mr. Booze" as an enemy, and he hoped to continue to do bo all liia life. He objected, howover, to tho idea of tho Bill, which was government by regulation. The intention was to give far too much power to the Ministry. . An "Indecent Publication." Mr. R. A. WRIGHT (Wellington Suburbs) hold that the publication of tho speech of tho Minister of Public Health was a breach of tho Indecent Publications Act, and future pamphlets would probably, be breaches of that Act unless it were amended. He was glad that this quostion of venereal disease had •been taken up. To mftny women this subject was anathema, but because of their very innocence of tho world it was necessary that an educational campaign should be entered upon. At the same timo, ho thought thero was too much power given in the. Bill for tho Government to act by regulation. A definite and clearly-cut clause dealing with venereal diseaso would have been preferable to giving the Minister of Public Health "a blank cheque" upon which ho could act. Ho did not say that the Minister would abuse his power, but somo Minister in the. future might abuse his powers. At the same time he agreed that .the dread disease should bo stamped out and he would support anything, compatible with our'liberties, which would aim at tho reduction of the disease. Upon the liquor question he pointed out that in Duuedin, Christchureh, and Wellington tho Press was asking for some restriction of hotel hours, and this was a fair rellection of public opinion. The House was not bound' to notice public opinion, but if there was a. legitimate reason behind public opinion it should bo noticed. In this case the reason was the advancement of the interests of tho Empire. No question of breaking a contract came into the matter, for the licenses were issued only for ono year, and that was all that they wero bound by. Variations mado after that time did not break a contract. Mr. J. M'COMBS (Lyttelton) referred to the action taken in various Australian States and urged that a similar courso should bo taken hero-of enabling the people to vote upon what hours tho hotels should remain open. No Change Needed, Mr. R. SCOTT (Tuapeka) said that those who were advocating early closing were aiming at tho hotelkeeper. Wliy did they not go to the root of the matter and impose such a heavy tariff as would compel the people to be sober? Ho had no connection with tho trade, but -lie could not disguise from himself; tho fact that if these hours wero restricted - very great harm would bo dono to tho liccusee. So far as tho eoldiere wero concerned, he Jrfld been surprised at tho excollcnco of their behaviour. It was ridiculous to

say that early- dosing was necessary for the soldior. 'When the Prohibitionists found that this Ory was becoming unpopular, they said that it was necessary for economio reasons. Well, if it wore necessary on those grounds, ho would support it, but he did not think tho need had been proved. To tako a referendum now would bo unfair. Mr. J. PAYNE (Grey Lynn) pointed out that social conditions encouraged some measure of prostitution, as ooonoinio reasons forbade men marrying until they were about 3d, on tho average. "While this was so it was sheer hypocrisy to rail against prostitution. The only real remedy wiis education, which should begin early. The common-sense way was to teacii men how to eradicate the disease, which medical men said could easily be dene. They should also be taught how to avoid *'the disease. He agreed that' the quack should be suppressed by. the most rigid means, lipon the liquor question he held that the fanatical section of the Prohibition Party -was seizing upon tho war as a pretext to accomplish what otherwise they would bb unable to secure.

' Minister in Reply. . Tho Hon. A. L. HEEDMAN, in reply, pointed out that early closing would mean the dismissal of a large number of omployoes, right throughout Now Zenland. This would flood the whole labour market of New Zealand with idle men, and ivould bp a. serious matter. Ho joined in. congratulating the Minister of Publio Health upon .his bold and courageous speech. Ho yaa sure that later ho would administer tho regulations to bo,' imposed with characteristic ability and energy. The matter that had been prinoipally discussed in the debate was tho regulation of the hours of hotels.This discussion showed clearly that the Prohibition Party had made the occasion one for advocating their own ends. He held that it'was. wrong at such a time to consider anything other.than the proseoutioii of tho. war. He, ventured toassert that there woidd never have been any such 'advocacy as this except for the presence of soldiers in the large cities. It was; admitted oven by tho Prohibitionists that there had been very little drunkenness on thojr part. If this were 60, why .was there any demand 1 for a change? It had been, asserted that tho nation was in the grip at present of its greatest enemy—drink. Well, if that were so, it had performed somo remarkable feats in placing such a navy upon tho sea, and such an army in the field as was now,in France, and also in producing such an output of munitions' as was recorded, besides financing ' very largely' somo of its Allies. These wero remarkable feats for a nation in the grip of its strongest enemy.

Prohibitionists' Real Object. HuT/Hinister went on to defend tho power- asked for to mako regulations. Theso regulations had been imposed in Britain. Amongst otlior things, Britain had provided that application should bo mado for compensation ivhero, damago was suffered.' 'JL'ho hotels wero closed only in certain areas, and in other eases now hotels, had been opened. Tho roal objects the Prohibitionists waß to take advantago of tue present position and oloso tho hotels, as far as thoy could. The'facts did not warrant any such drastic change; Tho cvidenco of tho police was that, there was no cause lor any change. The military, evidence should • carry weight. Colonel Potter and Colonel Adams both declared that it was' in tho interests of the soldier that the hotels, should remain open at present, and as Minister in oharge of the polico lie endorsed this view. If a etiange wore mads-the condition of the 6oldiers in. the back, streets would bo far worse' thai.at' Tho general att'tudeof tho early closing advocates was that the 'hotel door should 1 bo closed to tho SflMier. . Well, where wero they to go? They slio.uld not deny to soldierß who wore going away to fight for their country the little, liberty that was theirs. This would do thenr incalculable harm. From the point of view of efficiency could "it be suggested that thero was any lack on tho part either of our soldiers or our civilian population? That could not be suggested for ono moment. There was >no evidenco. to justify any such claim. Then as to the argument of eco-.. /nomy, he asked/why seleot the hotels: What right had any claas of people to mako a special attack on any one business?' Picture shows were "waste," but. would 'early closing apply to fnem"? The speech of Mr. Isitfc had altogether failed to convince;' Ho himself believed that our present liquor legislation was wrong, and would be completely displaced, in the future by some .better method. As for a referendum, ho did' mot believe that tho voice of the people was always right. For instance, at the outset;of the war, compulsory military training would have been rejected by the people—but would that have been right? There were times when tho opinion of tho few was perhaps sounder than that of the many. He did not believe that one could legislate beyond the people, and if a spirit of temperance were to be secured it would "oe ivon .by teaching the young man' to bo self-reliant and. able to resist temptation. Unless this principle were followed, our nation would be a weak ono. He hoped that in Committee the Bill would be passed without alteration. . Theißill was read a second time on the voices. The House adjourned at 11.40 -p.m.