THE HOUSE

Dominion, Volume 9, Issue 2774, 18 May 1916, Page 7

THE HOUSE

' The Souse of .Representatives taet. at 2.30. p.m. /.

■ Mr., A.' iv.. GLOVER . (Ancklaud. Central) asked tho Minister.-for Cook- Is-, lands, without notice,. how- many doctors had gone tluongk the .-outlying islands of the group during the last twelve months. ■ The Hon. Dr. POMAfiE replied- that they had. had only one-doctor to .visit i the 'outlying, islands. , .It had been- - a very difficult matter to .obtain - doctors at."all. -,-liad .appeared in. both New. Zealand add Australian papers without-..result,■ but -latterly they liad se- , cured the services of one medical man, who. would go round the outlying islands immediately. ' ' • , OUR SICK AND WOUNDED. ■ Mr. H. J, OKEY. asked the Minister of DotaitJe il tne- question :o£ treating tue' fiicii and woundeu' ol: our .Expeditionary I'orcO in the hospitals.- of I'ranco- rather ' than , having tnem sent back' to Egypt, . .where the dust, heat, and Hiss unlisted, against their recovery,- had been lull!" considered. I ■Tne Hon. J. ALLEN replied that there had been no suggestion: that- the', whole of oar. 1 ' sick 1 ana wounded ' should ibe ' brought to 'Egypt) for hospital treatment. 'I'he bulk of tne sick and wounded—practically ' the ■ whole—would be .. sent - to England i tor- treatment. ' Some might go to .Egypt, • or even be'brought back, to New- Zealand oil the, transports. . Some •-troops-still'ramajned in .Egypt,' and their, sick and wounded would: be treated there. ...... MAORI WAR VETERANS. ■ Mr. J. S. DICKSON (Parnc-ll) asked the Prime Minister whether he would place .before Cabinet the petition- -from Maori War-, veterans asking that they be aU lowed the benefit of old age' pension ak well/as the military pension.' .. , > The Right Hon. W-. l'\ MASSEY replied that lie had a. great- deal of sympathy , with the' request of the veterans, but it had to be remembered/ that the present . times were' not normal, and' that they , tad to look- a- long way ahead. • He' had , already. brought the petition before Cab- . i'net; •: but iio decision' had yet been. arrived at.- Ha promised to. inake' : a statement on the Subject before the end of .. the. session.•■'.'■ ' ■ .. INSTRUCTION FOR SOLDIERS. . Mr. J. PAYNE (Grey Lynn) asked, the Minister of Defence whether he was in touch . with what was being done in France 'to givo instruction in various, callings to returned' soldiers who were unable- to take up their former occupations. . He offered to give his services in instructing men up to the number of 'a hundred in accountancy and similar Sub- ' jects. ■ ' ■ The Hon. J. ALLEN said , that tho matter did not come. within the juris-, diction of his Department, but the Government ' was in.. touch wih what was being done not only in France but elsewhere.. He would convey Mr. Payne's generous offer to the Minister in charge of the Department dealing with returned soldiers.

NEXT-OF-KIN OF WILLOCHRA^EN. Mr. J. A. YOUNG (Waikato) asked the Minister of Defence whether the nest-of-kin of .the soldiers who have just returned by the 'Willochra, and lvhiv had gone to meet them, would be again allowed free passes when the men were discharged from quarantine'. The Hon. J. ALLEN said' that the matter had'already been brought before him,_ and he had promised, to give it consideration. Probably other free passes would be issued to those, of the nest-of-kin who had left their homes before they were aware of the necessity for the'quarantining''of the Willochra. ADDEESS-IN-REPLY DEBATE CONTINUED AFFAIRS IN EGYPT Mr. E. H'CALLUM (Wairau) resumed the Address-m-Reply debate at 3.15 p.m He dealt first with Defence topics, and reviewed New Zealand's history from the gift of the Dreadnought to the agitation for compulsory military 6errice Bill for home defence, up to the present time. He protested against the development of militarism in Egypt, and said he desired to avoid a similar development in Now Zealand. Our men were free and accustomed to liberty, and it was under such conditions that our Territorial Force graw lip- , Yet iu Egypt violence was being done to that sense of ; freedom as oi!i: men were being placed under the aanie conditions as those under which the British soldier lived. This was a breach of contract, as. our men had not. joined the Expeditionary. Force with the know-

ledge that tliey would bo placed under j the same conditions as the British, soldier. He desired to know if "the British authorities would recognise this differonce in our men, and restore to them the' freedom to. which they have been accustomcd. . Deep feeling had' been roused in Egypt by the prohibition of privates from'the best hotels. This was i'elt to', be a social barrier, and was .bitterly resetted by the men. General. Goilley had, not been responsible for this. It was the' act of the British General. Further, our/ men in Egypt were not, allowed to sit in first : class railway carriages, even if they paid their fares. One man was ordered out of a carriage, and because the man would not go with evilsmelling Arabs, ho stood on the platform, whero he was struck on the face with a can 3 .by an. officcr, who; afterwards humbly' apologised.. Saluting officers off duty was also resented. Some Generals did not believe in this, but while it was the Army custom, it 'had to bo kept up. Since his return to New Zealand ho had been astonished to find that this military atmosphere \vas_ creeping in. Ho heard of ii, case •in wnleh a priva'te .whose father had been a General in India had been ordered out of a firstclass railway carriage by an officer. In another case a private.had been ordered o.ut of an hotel dinihg-roo'm because ah officer entered. These acts could only be condemned. • Touching'on tho munition question, Mr. M'Calliim said that it was simply murder 'to put our men into the field withVmuni.tions; less effective than those used by our enemy. He had been authorised by wealthy men to urge that portion of our war profits should be utilised as a grant I to the British authorities' for the special manufacture of munitions. Thousands of wealthy men unable to'serve would be delighted to think that they wero being taxed for such'a special purpose. Treatment of Soldiers, The Hon. D. BUDDO (Kaia'poi) said that he would, not have spoken had not the subject of the treatment of returned soliders been raised in;the debate. They had. to remember that some four thousand men' had now returned, and very little - had been. . done to show that ' the country appreciated their action in -volunteering. Recently he noiticed that fifty-two' Teturned men ill Auckland had applied for positions, and the majority had received them in the city. , -It was somewhat regrettable' that so many men were going to the city, as hopes were entertained that th'ey yould be attracted, to the country. Ho feared that enough land was not being made available for them.: He complimented tho Minister t>f Defence on the state of Eeatherston Camp. The" only oomplaint. he had to make was in inspect to tho canteeii and the shops. The .price of fruit, he said;'was too high. Eeatherston received its fruit from a very ehbrt distance • away, and yot the price wis high. ,He suggested that free trade should be allowed at tho camp, and that men who desired to establish shops 6houkl bo allowed to' do so without any charge. This;would enable tho soldiers to obtain their goods at cheaper rates. The Minister of Defence had stated' that the canteon prices' were . regulated, but the prices in several instances wotb cer-tainly-too high. --A -little free trade would, be a : good thing. , The Hon. J. Allen: Thafs why I have the'shops there for them. Mi 1 . Biiddo: Yes, but the matter is getting .out of hand somewhat. \ i Soldiers'^Comforts. •' Mr. .H.. J. ELL: (Chxistchurch &'outh) also, spoko of tho high charges.made to soldiers by some of the tradesmen at tho camps.- The matter was scandalous, and 6hould be •; - /.The-.Hon. J.' Allen- You give me particulars. -and J will .make inquiries.'. ...Mr. Ell referred to the-charge of Is. Gd. each made to the men for button sticks. Those were made in Christchurch for Gd. each, and were sold retail there at 3d; -■ Ho referred' to .some alleged instances of attempts, to introduce a military caste into' tho; .Dominion. One incident, he said, occurred at the Royal Oak Hotel in Wellington. A soldier in a private's i uniform: invited some friends toy dine with' him at. the hotel. After they had sat down, an officer, a major, .came in to dinp, and was, being., shown. to, a. seat'"at' the.same-table,,'when he objected -to sitting down with ■ -a private.' The hotelkeeper then told tho privato that he must, get his dinner elsewhere. ■ Mr. J. S. 'Dickson:, No. Ho told the major to v get his dinner' somewhere else.' Mr. Ell: Well, that was very ereditable to the hotclkeepar: There should, be .no hesitancy on .the part of any. officer to sic with, any man who was fighting, the battles of the nation. >. Mr..W. T.; Jennings: An.officer is supposed to be a gentleman.. •Mr. Ell said that it was, a scandalous thing that a soldier should be ordered out of a first-class railway carriage be- . pause he was a private. . The Prime Minister: Aro you speaking of men with first-class tiokets? . : : Mr. Ell: I ;am speaking of men who are prepared to pay the difference between the price of second-clas9 and that of firstclass tickets. My. Ell also .spoke of tho : fact that soldiers were carried to and from the Featherston Camp in horseboxes.: He had;, been told that some of the men had fainted from the heat on going through the tunnels.- He hoped that the National Government would put a stop to this sort of thing.' Mr. Payne: If they are not men enough we will put, them out. ' ' In replying to an interjection from another member, Mr. Payne made a remark concerning "Not men enough" and "A lot of crawling hounds." - The Prime Minister asked whether it was m order. 1 for:a member to speak of other members as crawling hounds. Some discussion ensued as to the form in which the,words wero used. . Mr. Payne: I said, "We are all crawlmg- hounds. ■; ■' Mr. Massey:-The hon. gentleman must speak for himself. Mr. A._ E. GLOVER (Auckland CenJ[ al ) dealing with the cost of living, said that the Board of' Trade should have taken the evidence of the wives of workers, who (mostly felt the falling value of the sovereign. So far as defence was concerned, he did not join in the attacks on .the Hon. J. Allen. He recognised the .value of' the _ work done. by that gentleman. Referring to the pensions .paid to i the relatives-of the. Anzac heroes,' lie asked if ifilG 15s. was to be the price of a hero? These men had done their duty nobly and well, aftd it was our duty now to reciprocate as far as was possible.

About War Exigencies. Mr. C. A, WILKINSON (Egmont) said he was amongst those who had not been in favour of the formation, of tho National Government, but: he thought now that the National Government had justified its existence. Most of the speeches delivered in this session had been fair, but there were a' few regrettable excepspeeohes'from members l of the fortner Opposition. Ho resented especially the,attacks on the Defence Minister. ; He disapproved strongly of the attacks made on persons of German descent. Many such people were-amongst the best citizens we had, and ought hot K> be held up to obloquy. We should follow the policy of fair play, making proper inquiries always, and dealing justly by everybody. Then people 'would not ■ be compelled, as in Wellington, "to listen to a_ lot of hysterical women . mshing round and making a commotion when perhaps there was no reason for such aii outcry at all." He.was• strongly in favour of conscription, which. would compel tbose who ought to go, and release, from liability to seryico those who ought to stay at home, but who now felt that they ought to go. at any cost.- Ho was not in favour of heavy taxation, unless it was necessary, because heavy taxation meant waste and extravagance. But ho believed we ought to help the Empire by raising money for out war expenditure, if we imposed heavy . taxation, on some of. the monopolistic concerns in this country the taxation would be passed on to tho consumers, and no moans were at hand to prevent it. , Mr. Wilford: Don't you believe in taxation of war profits? Mr. Wilkinson said that a fair deal of the. war jirolits wero being taken now. Mr. E. Ivewman: ijixty per' cent, tho farmer pays. Mr. W ilkinson went 011 to speak of tho cost of living. He believed that a great 1 deal of the present trouble was duo to tho drift of the-people towards the towns, and that the real remedy was to get more people on the land. To. fix prices was 110 rornedy. It had failed in Australia. But much good could bo dono' by the Now Zoaland Board of Trade if its powers wero extended. He believed a very valuable addition to our food supplies could

lie furnished if'the Government would take up trawling as the Australian Govcnimeivt had dou:;, where the .scheme was a success, Ho hoped that the Minister" of Eiuanco and the Prime Minister would go Home after tho swsion. Property and Lives. , Mr. AV H. HINDMAE-SH (Wellington 'South) repudiated tho .auggcition tianfc any member in his. quarter of the Houso was not desirous of seeing fair play given to the farmers. He had sOmetimfa occasion to complain that subjects ill -vVhicli he was interested, such as banking, and proposals for paper money, did.not receive proper attention, Some Bills that he had introduced had . been laughed out of tlw House, yet one measuro which he had introduced had been passed into' law in Australia. This had teen the fato of. the Daylight Saving Bill,: which, after being ridiculed, was now.coming into favour, simply because it had been accepted eJsejvhere. Coming to cu-rront topics, ho denied the statement made s by the ; member for Rangitikei that 60 per cent, of the war profits made had been paid back to the State in the form of taxation. He complimented the membor for Dunedin Central upon his speech, and agreed with his proposal that a man should reoeive full compeusation for everything taken by the State. Let Government apply that principle to the lives of our soldiers'. ' Voices: You cannot do it. ' Mr. Hindmarsh asked the country to insist upon equal sacrifices in this war, and, after all, property was not nearly so valuable as human life. This principle of fair , play should bo general in its application, ■ especially in regard to: legislation coming before the Houso. It could not be fair to levy upon human lifo without making: a levy upon property by taxation. Ho did not at all agreo with the contention of the niember for Egmont that'.we ought not to impose too heavy taxation, because it would lead to extravagance, and that wo should raise large Bums of money by way of loan. Ho (Mr. Hindmarsh) advocated tho taxation of land,, and this for the reason that land could bo taxed without raising tho price of commodities. In this every political economist of standing agreed. Nobody of intelligence believed in confiscation, and nobody, 'so far as lie knew, ever preached confiscation. But ! tho term "confiscation" was often given different meanings by different people. Some would hold that the taking of 50 per cent, of the war profits amounted to confiscation. He did not. He challenged the statement that taxation would 'discourage thrift.' Experience at Homo had shown that the people would not be thrifty unless they were compelled by taxation and other means to"bo so, Extravaganco was rlfo in New Zealand. Hundreds of motor-cars wero being brought from America, for instance'. He .invited the Government to give up. advising tho people to be,thrifty, asd td try to bring about the induction of extravagance by legislation and by the imposition of taxation. He urged that taxation was an instrument' of reform,'and .was. so con-, sidered by economists, nowadays. So it would be . by taxation that the Empire would -unite to destroy German trade.

' The Land Question. . He had always been in favour of attracting to this country as many people as possible, and for this . reason he be- 1 lieved in cutting ,up and closo settlement of. all big estates. Large land-holders were an obstacle to progress, and these men could , not conscientiously ask other men to go and .'fight for them knowing all the time that they, themselvos were doing harm 'to their country. / It was impossible to have the. land question. even discussed fairly in the House, becauso on this question the Houso was dominated by some half dozen men owning. large areas of land. Everybody knew, he saicl, that the Pritae Minister had not'seriously tackled 1 the problem of settlement of the land. Ho denied .the accuracy of the statement .of tho member for Ranßitikei that farmers had to give back'GO per cent, of their war: profits. He knew of one man who had received for his products ,£3OOO more last season than the preceding season, and his increased taxation was only ,£SO. Ho estimated also that tho war profits of the province of Hawke's Bay, must. have, amounted to about one million sterling. .The men making theso profits did not kttow what sacrifice was. They resented sacftfices by themselves, but 'the.v ■ would ainly compel other men to make sacrifices without limit .in order that the country should bo defended. Men could defend their country in times of peace no less than in times of war, and the man who was monopolising 50,000 acres of land, keeping others off it. was not defending his country. He upbraided the Prime Minister for- his failure up' till the present to take steps to prevent tho exorbitant increases in rents.' 'Landlords were taking advantage of the' war to raise rents, and it was not fair to allow this to. continue while we were asking men to serve tho country in war. .'

Defending the Defence Minister, v -i (Wellington Suburbs) 1 denied Mr. • Hindmarsh's allegation that it was. impossible to secure a full and fair discussion in the House. He could not conceive a, chamber, in which greater facilities for discussion were pen. What the member for Wellington bouth should condemn was thro action of the people of New. Zealand in not returning, sufficient members who thought with him. Then they would find, as they had found in Australia, that performance was .different from promise. Mr. Wright, replying to Mr. Wilford, said -that if he held, that all that was good in the Defence administration was due to the officers of the Department, then equally all that was bad in the ad•ininistration should equally be credited to them. But this would not 6uit the hon. member and his l'.ke who were criticising the Minister of Defence. Mr. .Vyright said,he had supported the National Government because he had thought it was the best Government that could be obtained, but lie had since come to the conclusion that , a National Government was not the sort of Government most likely to give the people what they wanted. The Government most likely to do this was one with a narrow majority. It had been said that the Minister* for Defence was unfitted for his- job "because he had no soul." He (Mr. Wright) believed that Mr. Allen'sj very dispassionate nature was a good qualification under the circumstances. Such a . man was more 6uited for .the position than a warmhearted man who might be exceedingly rash. Mr., Allen, he believed, had done his' work always as an honest, straight* forward man. (Hear, hear.)

No Premature Peace, Referring to the war, ho said he hoped that there would be no premature peace at the end of the war, aud suc|i mtluence as they might have as members of Parliament should be used to prevent any such possibility. If there should bo a,premature peace, it would bo for us almost as bad as defeat, for wo should at onco have to begin to prepare for war again. Ho was not one of those who believed. there would be a sudden dramatic termination of the Avar, 110 believed the war might go on for long. At tho end lie hoped it would be made impossible for' the unscrupulous gaug o£ ruffians who had forced this war on the world to do bo again. There was much talk about conscription of wealth and tho heavy inroads on tho workers' wages. Tho time might yet come, however, if the war went on long enough, when, alter our money was all exhausted, wo might liavo to require our people to work, without any monoy at all. So far as recruiting was concerned, ho wished to say that tho members of tho Labour Party had been very well represented in that movement, and that the representatives of tho Labout Party enlisting were a credit to their party and to tho country.

Domestic Problems. The cost of living was a vexed question. Hero wages kept on increasing, but the fact was that ive were moving iu a vicious circle. As wages went up tho, co;t of living went up proportionately, or moro tlian proportionately. He recognised that it was by no means easy, perhaps impossible, to rogulate the price of goods imported to Now Zealand. It should, however, lie an. easier matter to reduce tho cost of commodities produced locally. The need for dealing with tho problem of tho cost of living was one of great' and increasing urgency. Personally, with prices as they were,, lie could not see how men could live and keep a family on J32 10s. per week. He spoke also of the need for reform in our ideas and our methods of education. AVo should| certainly not, oven in Vrar time, think of reducing our education vote. Thero was need, if wo were to im--1 prove tho child lifo of our country, that

wo should spend moro money in providing suitable 7 buildings for the children in the primary schools. For tho children of •tho secondary schools line buildings, often palatial buildings', were provided, with tho best equipment procurable. Jie had 110 iauit to luid witn this, but he did not think thcio schools should be provided at the expense of the children of the primary schools. The time would come when" wu would have to put our hands deep into our pockets to provide suitable school accommodation for our children, tie uppealc-d to tho Government not to cut down the education vote. He also urged "tho necc-ssily of devoting more attention to tho development of technical education. A new technical school building loi; Wellington was a very urgent necessity Our Great Achievement. Mr. J. T. M. HORNSBY (Wairarapa) said that, alttough.lio wiia a'strong party man, he did hot think the present was a time for captious criticism. He did not agree with .everything ttiat had been done in tho Defence administration, but ho could not ignore what had been done. We had done in New Zealand almost a mighty work in finding (10,01)0 out of a- population of a million. Those honourable members who had visited the camp t'he other- day must liave realised the excellence—tho superexcellence if that word were permissible— of the work being done in New Zealand. He was proud to think'that- the Homo authorities had adopted for the training of their men the curriculum set by little New Zealand. ' It was true, as had been said very often, that there was a German taint in this country as in other British lands. But for his part ho was extremely glad to remember that among those who were serving ivith our forces, among those who had died, were the sons of German fathers who had come to live in our country. Who Get the War Profits? In discussing tho cost of living it was often said "that the farmer was getting rich and fat'at the expense of the porir. He did not accept this statement. Bather he was inclined to say that the excessive profits were being taken by middlemen, tho merchant class/ and the land speculators. . Last yeaiS farmers got 7s. a .bushel for their wheat. This year they got only is. Od.per bushel, but the price of bread stood at tho §amo level. And an attempt ■'was even being made'now to creato the impression that there was a shortage of wheat, 110 doubt in order to create an excuse for a further increase in price, "he member for Stratford had condemned the Government for having given way to the railway men in' their demand for a - shilling a day increase in pay. ' In this the member for Stratford did the railway men a grave injustice. He would have bceu inclined to agree with the mmourablo member if he had told the Government they were beginning at the wrong end—that they should have seen that the railway men got justice in the matter of rents and tho cost.of commodities. • It would be possible to get from the railways enough to provide for the increase., .For instance, it was tho custom to carry polo ponies one way for nothing, to carry racehorses one way for nothing, to carry fancy st6ck, to shows tor nothing, to carry limo a hundred miles for nothing. Surely in these prosperous times the. farmers would not object to pay. for_ thisse services. He condemned tho . National. Government for their failure to tackle tho problem of th.6 increased cost of living.

No Discredit in Conscription. No. measure of compulsion in . this country could jossibly be complete that did not. take away all civil rights from every mqn who : refused to do, his duty, by his country. , He hud in his possession (locunients which he presumed had beon sent, to other members 'of Parliament. Ono came from Auckland, and tho other purported, to be a resolntiou of the Society of ;i Friends in England, published hero by a member- of tho -Society of Friends.' These documents wero such as ought to-bring the authors)of them'-with-in tho reach of the law. Those people who had conscientious objections to fighting ought to be given to understand that tboy could not any-longer, bo'regarded as citizens of our country. : The voluiitary system had had a thorough trial here. It was not to a country's discredit to introduce compulsion. Our greatest Ally was a conscript country, and no ono could say ' -that the conscripts •of France had not done their duty. Our wars of the past had been won by compulsorily raised forces. In wars of the' past it had been the custom to hold up merchantmen on the high seas, tear the crews out of them, and put thein in our ships of -war. The Battle of Trafalgar had' been won by men taken- by the press gangs from the fishing villages of England. The American Civil War would not have ended as it had but for compulsory service, 'enforced by President Lincoln. He believed compulsion would come, and that it ought-to come. It was the fairest way of ensuring equality of sacrifice. He would, however, warn the Government not to allow tlie local medical men to determine ' who should be turned down. This should bo done by the military doctors, free of local influences of any sort: The men should be selected in their proper order, according t'j their classes. Single men should come first —and with the single' men he would include those who had sheltered behind a petticoat since tho war began—(hear, hear)—then tho mariied men without children, and so on. Then there would bo no need to send our married men with four or five or six children. Men had gone leaving as many as seven children. His opinion was that the duty of such men was at home, and not at the front. Mr. Allen': 1 l:av? always said so. I think so now. We should not encourage those men to go. Mr.- Hornsby: I agree with that: He concluded with, a tribute to the achievements of the Anzacs on Gallipoli, and to tho memory of thqse who fell there.

The Member for Grey. Mr. Pj C, WEBB (Grey) charged the Government with having failed to make adequate provision for tne dependants of men who had, lost their lives in the war, and also with having treated tho returned soldiers badly in turning them out physical wrecks to look for employment. He spoke at some length on the cost or living, declaring that the efforts of the New South Wales Government to regulate the prices, of commodities had been an unqualified -success. Ho contended that if we were to nationalise blood and brains for the defence of the Empire we must nationalise wealth at 1 tho ' same time. It was absurd for the Government to try to build up a great military machine, and allow tho eoonomic machine to vripg' tho life blood out of tho people. He condemned Vehemently tho administration of the National" Government,' which, he alleged, was no longer worthy to represent the peoplo of New Zealand. Ho declared that tho Board of Trndo was n. huge joke, v-ory pinch resembling the Government that created it. The debate, was adjourned, on the motion of Mr. H. Poland, and the House rose at 11.30 p.m.