SOLDIERS & DRINK

Dominion, Volume 9, Issue 2745, 13 April 1916, Page 3

SOLDIERS & DRINK

THE WET CANTEEN SCHEME

AND EARLY CLOSING

MINISTERS' EMPHATIC REPLIES

STURDY DEFENCE OF TROOPS

Proposals that wet canteens should be established in iixpeditionary Force training camps, and that hotel bars in Wellington Military District be closed, a>t 7 o'clock every evening, were made to the -Primo Minister and the Dcfence Minislet- yesterday by a deputation from tho AVar Necessities Committee. The deputation, which numbered about 20, was largely composed of ladies. lit. A. Gray, the lirst speaker, 6aid ho had been requested by .the deputation to explain that the War Necessities Committee, which had organised tho inter, viewy was the outcome of a meeting of certain ladies who bad for a long time-bean engaged 111 various activities for the comfort nf our troops here and elsewhere, and who were deeply concerned in anything afl'eoting the welfare of our troops. Over indulgence in liquor on the part of some men 111 the'troops was forced upon their attention, as also were certain occurrences arising'from this over iudulgence, which were in every way regrettable. The Two Requests, The ladies cast about to discover whether some means could bo devised lo jremedy such a state of affairs, and as a result of their inquiries and deliberations, they had passed two resolutions: U) That wet canteens be/established in the Expeditionary I'orce camps in the Wei. luigton Military District, and (2) that, all hotel and club bars be closed for the sale of liquor' after 7 p.m. during the period of the present wur. ■ The movement iu support of these its solutions had gained support throughout New Zealand, and a veiy large number of people had appended their signatures to statements in support of the proposals. Mr. Gray said he wished to assure the Government that there were no politics in the movement, nor was the committee associated with cither .of the two great parties interested in the liquor questionneither with the prohibitionists nor . tho liquor sellers. Tho objects of the committeo had been criticised- in various quarters, and a very considerable amount of misapprehension seemed to exisß as to the objects and probable results of the committee's proposals. It had been said that the request for a wet canteen was a subtle attempt to got liquor - into the camps, that it would increase the facilities for getting liquor into the 1 camps, that it was the thin end of the wedge, ond that the ultimate object was' to get liquor into the territorial camps. Nothing af, the kind was intended. The proposals were limited to the.duration af the war. The point which impressed the committt* in favour of the wet canteen - was that it would enable men accustomed to the reasonable use of liquor to get it in camp under proper supervision The establishment of a , wet canteen would also obviate the necessity for men to rush into town, where they were liable to indulge in excessive drinking, when they got then leave. In the Imperial Army, wet canteens hud been the rule for many years, and the committee had assurances .iroi.* those best able to judge—military officers and non-commissioned officers—that the establishment _of these canteens had been attended with benefit to the men, and had not been productive of any harmful results whatevci. , Closing of Hotels. 'The other proposa,: of the ooinmitiee wtw that the bars of hotels should be closed for the sale of intoxicants from 7 o'clock in the evening in the Wellington Military District. Probably this was too large an i i , wtm H better perhaps to ask that hotels-within'a certain distanco of tho camps should come under this restriction. It was on-behalf of the men who were easily led astray by indulgence in liquor that the committee asked that the hotels should cease to sell liquor after 7 o clock in the evening, for undoubtedly it was m the evening- that most of tho evils occurred. It was : not the desire of the committee ,to cast any slur on the troops, even if they did refer to the urinkmj* habit* of somo Individuals. Jii actual tact no people in the community were more of the troops than tno n-embers-of tho deputation. It was TealdfoL J 0 V e - th f- i! the "S hts ° f *•»- *"i i ,? btal . n i'quor were to'be restricted, the rights of civilians must btj ence rc mus ' he no diilei.

Inquiries Should be Made. mv , Mart , in Chapman advocated'the establishment of a. wet canteen. He asked the Minister : to 'make proper inquiries from military officers on the proposal' and a'result * t,lat W "ere Was a result of those inquiries that the setting up of wet canteens would be a wise measure, the _ Government would adopt f ■ i i ° U ® was a certain amount H™? li( I" or L > «>ldier3, he beiieved that tie proportion of soldiers who were to be found in the streets overcome iiqufor was extremely small, JUr. lUassey: llear, hear. . Mr. Chapman: The nuimbers may ap< pear considerable because that which is disagreeable impresses the mind more than that which is agreeablo. But we can't deny the fact that we do meet soldiers who had over-indulged in liquor. He went on to sav that ho believed that most of tho men did not take too much drink because they were given, to drinking to excess, but because of the unfortunate habit of civilians to insist upon treating soldiers. Air. Alassey: Don't yon think thu-: is the remedy, rather than the other? , ~ r \ Chapman: I think they should all be tried. I quite agree with you that if attack treating you will bo doing nothing- but good. He repeated his request that the Government should make tull inquiries. # In the course of these inquires the opinions of the men themselves should be taken. He had been • informed that the men had opinions about this subject which, ho had no doubt, would bo valuable, and that the common opinion among men of the better class was that tlio wdt canteens would be good, I Other Speakers, 1 I Mr. J. H. Stevens said that tho move- j meut was supported by a majority of the people. He had been actively engaged for the past six months in recruiting work, and he had peculiarly favourable opportunities for interviewing men and women u tl,e ™ uu t l 'y- He was prepared'to say that of the people he had met nino out of ten men and every woman favoured 7 o clock closing. Mr. E. I'. Hadfield, replying to a question by Mr. Mussey, said lie .believed thecommittee would be in favour of any measures to prevent treating. If "shouting" could lie prevented by practicable means most of the evils now existing Would disappear, but he believed that it would be absolutely impossible to frame legislation by which treating could bo stopped. Mr. J. -C. Fannin, a returned soldier, spoke of the operation of the wet cautecu ■ ,Egypt. He said -that 110 spirits were sold in the canteen, and that the sale of beer was closely supervised by officers. The hours of sale were from 12.30 to 2 p.m. and from 7 to 9 p.m. In all the time he had been there ho had never seen a man drunk in the canteen. He believed that if cautecns wero set up in our camps they would help to keep the men in camp at nights, and they would be more fit for their'work in consequence. He was himself a teetotaller. Military Officers Oppose Cantetn. Air. Massey, replying, said he had no fault to find with the tone of the speeches, which had been moderate and reasonable. Both Mr. Allen tnd ho realised that the members of the deputation were actuated b,v the best possible motives. This lie was willing to admit, although ho might not agree with the proposals. Regarding'the wet canteen, a great deal of stress had' been laid upon the value of the opinion of the military authorities. He had approached the subject with a strictly 1111-, biased mind, and he had taken tho opinion of two military officers who had had more to do with the training of our troops than any other officers. The opinion of these men as conveyed to him vas this: that a wet canteen in the camp was not consistent with the proper training of the soldiers.- He himself had no fooling in the matter, Uu till tjieu, 11 he hud au opinion

at all, it was in favour of the wet . canteen. Could the deputation ask him to advocate and. establish a wet canteen after having received this information? He was sure they could not. * If these opinions Jiau been conveyed to them as they were to Jmu they would not now advocate tho wet canteen. If lie thought the wet canteen was a remedy for some of the evils now existing iio would support it, but ho believed it was not a remedy. He did iipt think that tho fact that wet canteens Mere the rule in England was a good aigumeut lot establishing them here. In iMjgiatui the publichouses were open for , sale of liquor 011 Sundays, but no one would urge that as a reason for Keeping tne hotels open on Sunday here.

Law Will Be Amended. The Government had found that tho iau ma not of -such restrictions on the sale of liquor as might be desira i i ,vou "» l be necessary for the wnernment: to ask Parliament to amend 0 ? ar ' y closing question was a. much more difficult one than that of rfln j ??' However, the Government had not been unmindful of the proposal. He was only sorry that he was unable to ahovr to the deputation the police report on the proposal. It was, ne supposed, common knowledge that there were certain establishments which it was impossible to suppress, where liquor was sold. This was ono of the' Jhh, i s }, 1- lv ° uld have to be dealt with by Parliament. Jlr. Massey said he hoped no impression would go out that, a large number of our soldiers were addicted to drink. (Voices: i\o, no.) Ho related how ono evening, wnen the troops were given leave am; in e S fall-m on the wharf at he had gone down to see how events were moving. "Though I felt proud of our troops before, I felt prouder than over of them ufter that experience, f. u oo .' say that there was nobody under n ln enc ® liquor.. Some men, tl small proportion, were under the influence of liquor. I saw. one man coming clown to the wharf for whom the roaffway was scarcely wide enough,' and I heard him say, 'B Company are on their Honour and we're going to be there.'He repeated it several times in my hearing." j? I w ? u t J °n to say that, the-men faithfully kept their pledged word on that occasion, and this was th' .answer to the statement that many of our men were inclined to ■ over-indulgence.

Danger of Other Ills. Referring again to;- early closing, he said that Cabinet had not been able to make up its mind as to whether it was a good thins to close the hotels earlier than 10 o'clock. Someone had said it was better to "bear those ills we have th fl n fly to others that we know not of." It Cabinet decided that it would be a wise thing to close the hotels at 7 o'clock, then Parliament would be asked to give the authority. His opinion was that certain proposals would be submitted to Parliament regarding the sale of liquor, and for the better regulation of the liquor traffic. And there would' be no discrimination between soldiers and civilians. He would have pleasure in submits ting to Cabinet both proposals of the deputation. But he had practically made up his mind about the wet canteen. He thought it would be a retrograde step to introduce it, and he did not think it should be agreed to. "A Great Blunder," . Mr. Allen claimed to speak as a military authority, having had 30, years' experience as an officer, and he unhesitatingly said that it.would be a great L'lunder to introduce wet canteens in A>w. Zealand There was a special reajon for the wet canteen. in Egypt. There, liquor was sold by anybody—there' were' 110 licenses—and much of it was liquor of an abominable kind. This was the reason why a wet canteen was established in the New Zealand Camp in Egypt. Anotner proposal was that , hotels should, be closed-at 7 o'clock. "I don't care when the hotels, are closed,", lie said. . "You may close them altogether , aiid I shall not mind, but you are not going to close them for troops unless yon close them for everybody." ■ - Voices: Hear, hear. , ■"Mr. Allen spoke of possible danger of shutting down hotels early. > He- warned the deputation, that if - they pressed for this they might create a trouble ten times worse.

A voice: That is why wo are asking -for tlie wet canteen. .

Mr. Allen said that the wet ■ canteen would hot touch the evil to which he referred—a very much worse "evil than drink. He did not Know whether' they realised wliat he meant, ' . '

A voice: Would not the police have more time to deal with this evil if the hotels were closed? .' ' :■ , .

Mr. Allen said that he did not think it was a question of more police activity.. thought something should be in force which wiis not in force. There was danger that men might, if the/hotels were closed,. go to the haunts where liquor was sold illegally. That was where the evil existed,. and it did not exist in licensed bars. ■ r 1 Drunkenness Decreasing. The object aimed at in the .camps was to train men so that they would be strong enough to-resist temptation. ' A result of the system had been that drunkenness had decreased in the camps ever since tho camps were established. He did not deny that there, were soldiers who got drunk, but they were by some people held up to 'i public obloquy and blackguarded throughout. the community. . <

Voices: Not by us. Mr. Allen:'No, hot by you, ladles. I admit that. He said lie was willing to do anything, to prevent excessive drinking, and he was very much in sympathy with the committee s'desire in this-re-gard, but he did not want to be fbreed to' go along any .wrong lines. "And," he said, in conclusion, "you must not close the hotels earlier unless you take one other step." ■ In reply to a question, Mr. Allen said that he believed the presence of a liquor canteen at the camp might induce a young man to take his first glass of beer. i Mrs. Earlo: The .wish of the committee is to bring about a state of affairs to lessen drunkenness. Can you suggest anything better? Mr. Allen: I think we can suggest something better. ' ' - Mr. Mass'ey: I think you will have .a better proposal when Parliament meets. Soldiers and Civilians—A Comparison. Subsequently Mr.. Allen supplied a Dominion reporter . with' statistics 'to show the extent to which drunkenness occurs in the camps. "From statistics I have gathered," he said, "I have come to the conclusion that there is 'less drunkenness amongst the soldiers than amongst the ordinary civilians in tho City. Since the inauguration of tho camps there have been only three men dismissed from the forces for drunkenness. I have had a return prepared of the number of cases of -drunkenness tried at tho camps during December, January, and February last. In Featherston, out of approximately 7000 men, thero were 143 cases; in Trentham. out of 4500 men, 84; and at Narrow Neck (Auckland), 38; a total of 265 from fully 12,000 men. And they are all men between the ages of 20 and 45, in the full vigour ot life. Amongst those .cases tried,- 8 men at Trentham had two charges against them, and two had three, charges. A t Narrow Neck six" men were drunk more than once. I have also had a return of tho cases of drunkenness tried in the Civil Court in Wellington during the same period. There were prosecutions against--633 males and 62 females, and against 106 soldiers, a total of 801 cases. Of the male civilians 68 were tried' on two or more charges, seven females on two or more charges, and eight soldiers on two or more charges. It may be that some of the soldiers included in the 106 tried in the Civil Courts have also been tried at the camp, but. if so, the comparison is against the soldier to that extent, .t maintain tl)o.t these figures show thit drunkenness amongst 6oldicrs is less than amongst civilians. There aro about Sfl.Wlft people in Wellington; I should think that there are not many more than 12,000 men of military age, between 20 and -15, the age at which I should say l»on are most likely to over-indul<re in drink. I think the comparison, though a very rough one, i* fair, and yet you pee this enormous difference in the figures. It is quite true that when men come back from leave to the- cainns every man under the influence of liquor .'is not arrested. If a man, though unsteady, goes quietly t« bod without misbehaving he is left alone, but the same applies to civilians in your streets. I should sav tho rule in camp Is rather more strict, so. that In evon- way tho comparison in fumiust the soldier."