TENSIONS AS OF RIGHT?"

Dominion, Volume 9, Issue 2637, 7 December 1915, Page 6

TENSIONS AS OF RIGHT?"

Pensions as of right for dependents of all soldiers who may lose their lives while serving with the New Zealand Expeditionary Force was the principal among a series of demands made by a deputation which waited on t'he Prime Minister yesterday. Tile deputation was organised by tho War League, but it was in fact representative of very many other bodies. Mr. A. H. Hindmarshj, M.P., introducing the body of about 100 people present, said tliat they- represented public opinion generally. He said the Pensions Act and the. administration of it nas, he thought, in need of alteration, and tho deputation had come to emphasise this view. Summary of Requests. Mr. J. P. Luke, Mayor of' Wellington, was the first speaker. On a previous occasion, he said, the War League had urged that ail pensions should be receivable as of right. It might be that certain people would draw pensions who were not entitled to them, and there were many deairablo objects in these .times to winch, such people could devote their pensions. The deputation contended for the cardinal principle of pensions by right. In the Old Country, where people generally were not .so favourably circumstanced as here, pensions were granted as of right. The deputation asked also for pensions by statute. They did not want any Pensions Boani however well disposed it might bo towards applicants, to have any power to determine whether a pension should he paid, or what- rate of pension should bo paid. The right to a pension being once established, then the statute should provide for tho amount of allowance to -be given to those who have suffered by the war. They asked, too, that men who died from injury or disease contracted in camp in New Zealand should be entitled to pensions iii exactly the same way as men who fell in battle.- Another request was that some allowance should he made in respect of dependents over 16 years of age. ; The effect 1 of withholding allowances regarding children over' this age might often mean that their period of education would he curtailed. The pension schedule contained several anomalies, and it was urged that the Government should examine the schedule' again and have the ,Anomalies put right. Another defect in the law Was that under it pensions were payable only to persons domiciled in New Zealand. The deputation urged that pensions ought to bo receivable by persons otherwise entitled to them wherever they might be domiciled. (Applause.) Mr. Luke raised the question of the allowance made to officers for the purchase of their field outfit. It was admitted that the allowance of .£2O was insufficient to provide,, all that \vas necessary. Some people suggested that if the officer could not afford to find the rest of'tho money himself, .it should be found by tho patriotic societies. But an officer's outfit was just as necessary for his work as a soldier as a private's outfit, and tho Gov-, ernmerit should, by making the allowance a liberal one, recognise that it Was tho obligation of t'he Government to provido'all soldiers, officers as well as men, with their full equipment. Officers should not-have to rely on the patriotic funds or on their friends for aid. Up till now wo had been drawing oflic-era trom men ivko were perhaps well enough able-to find their own equipment, but'the supply of those men .was rapidly becoming exhausted, and we should have to draw our officers from men who were not able to find their own.

The Man With, Dependents. • • Professor Hunter said that the War Leaguo was not at the deputation to criticise merely. As tho Government should know, tho league was formed with the object of sympathetic co-operation with the Govornment in the carrying out of affairs in this serious crisis. It was not the object of the deputation to blame anybody, and particularly it was not their intention to disouss the administration of the Act by the War Pensjons Board. They asked that, the Government would take the large deputation as an indication of tho spirit of tho people of New Zealand, and as showing- that ' tho people were prepared to make all necessary sacrifices as their shore in the prosecution of the war if the Government would place the burden upon them. The league had had a good opportunity of seeing tho effect of the Pensions Act upon recruiting, and the league believed that tlieso matters should be put right. A man with dependents who was contemplating enlistment had to ask himself two questions :"'Can I provide for my depwideiits while I am on active service?" and "Can I be sure that my dependents will be provided for in case I am killed?" Any man worth his salt must ask himself these two questions. The first one he could answer with certainty,. because the rates of pay were fixed.- Ho could not answer the second at _ all because 110 man knew what the pensions payable to his dependents wcto likely to be. Until these solid obstacles in the way of en-' li9tment were removed, it could not bo said that the voluntary system of en-! listment, of -which he believed they were all proud, had had a fair trial.

"Country Can Afford Jt."

He did not propose to suggest any particular form of taxation to bo imposed to provide'for the dependents of tho men who served, but he would try to show that the'country could afford adequate taxation, and if we did not provide for .tlio dependents of soldiers who fell, the term "shirker," now freely used, would lie much better applied to us. The war had meant unexampled prosperity to New Zealand, and tho prosperity was evident by tho continued consumption of liquor and other luxuries. New Zealand's exports for the first year totalled 30 millions, an advaneo of G millions on the previous year's, figures. Imports dropped by one million, leaving a clear fund of 7 millions. Deposits in the banks in ■ the same period were 1 millions more, and the advances were one million less. The trade balance iu ■ favour of New Zealand in the first year of tho war _ was thus nearly 10 millions. ■ The dividends of trading companies and shipping companies showed that in New Zealand we were really enjoying economically prosperous times. War profits in England had been subjected to a tax of 59 per cent., and to show the spirit in which this taxation had been received he would quote a recent statement 'by Dr. Lorimer, chairman of tho Steel Company of Scotloud: "To'iny mind there is something absolutely_ revolting in the idea lof anybody making profits out of the nation's agony, especially so in the case of a man or a company that has had no extra labcur' or anxiety, but whose opportunity lias come solely because of an artificial scarcity created by the Government on account of the nation's need. This war, God knows, will bring untold suffering in more than-.one form to millions who have no war profits to collect and 110 war bonus to receive, and therefore I liavo felt in my own mind, long before this proposal was made, that in that direction tho Government would be entirely justified in asking those who have made profits to assist those who are less fortunato. Tt may bo, indeed, that before tho war is ended the Government will find it nece?sary to take not 50 per cent., but 100 nor cent. of. these extra profits, and if they do I hope that noneofus will complain. As I have said, sacrifice is demanded all round, and there are hundreds of thousands of others who are niaking infinitely greater sacrifices than is possible for us." (Applause.) The monthly abstract of statistics for November" issued by the Government Statistician showed that the unimproved value uf land had increased in 1905-lt by tOilJ millions, in IIUO-1-1 bv 531 millions, . uaud iu 1913-li }# l&i milieus.

A DEPUTATION'S SUGGESTIONS AND THE PRIME MINISTER'S ANSWERS OTHER WAR QUESTIONS

To show how much heavier were tho taxation burdens in the United Kingdom he made tire following comparison "between the English and New Zealand: in-

I hope tho Government will not set up the plea that we can't afford it," said Professor Hunter. "Those who don't go to the front, have got to afford it. (Applause.) Mt. M'Kenna, Chancellor of the Exchequer, has said: 'Our greatest resource is the continued willingness of our people to pay their share.' I trust the Government will make the alterations suggested, and allow us all' to make a beginning in paying our share." (Applause.) A Labour Man. Mr. J. M'Kenzie, chairman of the Labour Representation Committee, spoke on behalf of Labour bodies. From their point of vie*, he'said, both the rates of pay and the,pensions were inadequate, and tliey would like to see tliem increased. The "War League demands were moderate, aud the .Labour bodies belieVed that because of their moderation and absolute fairness the Government would give them full consideration, and. put them into effect.. The demand that the amount of the pension should be fixed was so fair that if the voluntary system was to have at all a fair trial Parliament must agree that it must be done. The younger and more adventurous of our men had pretty well all .enlisted, and tho Government was forced now to call on men who were older, and who had more responsibilities. It was the absolute duty of th-ese , men to consider in what position their dependents were going to be left. At present they could not tell. They did not lcnoxz what the Pensions Board would award to the relatives, and in their i minds Tvas £ fear that when the first enthusiasm died down, and when the intense patriotism so obvious now slackened, to some extent, say in two. or three years from now when the war was over, tne ; Pensions BoariJ might have an unduo regard for economy, and relatives would suffer. If it v;as not established that a man who .was injured or killed in the service \ of the country fas; a right to a pension then that man was in the position of a suppliant for charitv. (Hear, hear.) Dependents applying for pensions had to submit not only to having their own affairs investigated, but tho affairs also of those, relatives liable at law for their maintenance. This was not fair. ■Ho urged that pensions should be payable also in respect of men who lost their lives in camp. Tlio number of such cases must l» small,- and it was surely beneath tho dignity of the . Government to shirk its obligation to pay pensions in these cases simply because tho men died in New Zealand and not on active' service. Labour bodies asked also that the maximum rates o f . Pension should be deleted from tho schodnles. Unless this was done then the widows of | soldiers with' Somewhat large families \voro going to lie placed at a grave disadvantage. This country wanted population, and it had a policy of assisting the immigration of suitable'persons from the Old Country at the cost of a considerable sum yearly. This being 'so it seemed, strange that widows of soldiers who had somewhat larger families than were provided for at present, families of 6ix or seven, in place of four, tho maximum number provided for in the Pensions Act should suffer because of their families.

Mr. James Macintosh was called upon to speak on his insurance scheme, but for reasons, which he stated, he chose not to speak oil it on that occasion.

Effect on Recruiting. Captain Barclay, who is in charge of tho War League's Eecruiting Office in, tho Town Hall.; said that in his experience of recruiting, the question which continually cropped- up was: "If a.man is killed or incapacitated, will his dependents in tho United Kingdom or elsewhere receivo the benefits of the Pensions Act?" One special case would serve to illustrate all of them. A man who was working here earning a fair wage remitted monthly to his mother in England tho sum of £>i per month, This was her sole means of livelihood, The' man wrote to his mother and told her', that he proposed' to enlist nnd asked her how she could manage. She replied that she would bo prepared to accept lialf, the usual amount if he did ' his duty. The man oame to the Recruiting Office and told him (Captain Barclay) the whole story, and he promised the man that the case would bo brought before the authorities. This case was a type.

Mr. Massey: The board has not had an opportunity of refusing a pension to the lady of whom you speak?

Captain Barclay: "No.". He added that ho had mentioned the case as a type. and that the broad principle for which, he contended, was that pensions to dependents should be payable, wherever those dependents lived. Thero were many men holding back from recruiting now because of the provision in tho 'Act stipulating that pensions shall be payable only to people domiciled in New Zealand. .

PRIME MINISTER IN REPLY \ ——' "BEST ACT IN THE WOULD." The Prime Minister, replying, said he was very glad to have an opportunity of having this matter out, and he hoped that before the deputation left the room certain of tho misapprehensions that seemed to exist would be removed.- First be would say that the War Pensions Apt was the best Pensions Act evor placetion the Statute-book in New Zealand. That might not be saying.very much, because we had not had much experience, but he would make this statement also: it was'tho best Pensions Act in the world. He could say that without fear of contradiction. Ho knew it had been said that we must not make comparisons with other countries, but he ventured to suggest that if it had been possible for. those who had adversely criticised this Act, and criticised its administration, to have said that our Act was not half so good as the. Act in Australia, or in Britain, or iri Canada, they would have said it. On that lie would justify his use of tho argument. ■ Pensions to Soldiers Not Reducible. The basis of the whole Act was the pension paid for total; incapacity to a private soldier. This pension was 355. per week, or .£9l a year. The wife of a disabled soldier could receive 12s, 6d. per week, and ss. por week was payable in respect of every child. Tho maximum aggregate amount to bo drawn by a private soldier was £3 12s. Gd. per week. Some had spoken as if tho amount paid to an incapacitated soldier could be reduced by UlO board if he was possessed of property or income. Pensions to soldiers could not be so reduced.

Members of tlio deputation i No, but pensions to dependents can. Mr. Massey: I want to say to this deputation that it does not matter what property is possessed by a soldier, if ho,is incapacitated there is his pension provided for and fixed by the Act. That is on© point cleared up. A member of the deputation: There was never any doubt about that. What about his dependents? Mr. Massey said ho would deal with juise, ojt jiimendeuta.. It had beep, said.

that the pension of the wife of an incapacitated man was not fixed. That was correct. The .maximum pension to the wife of a disabled, soldier in New Zonland was JE32 10s. per year; tho maximum in Australia was <£2(1 x>er year, and in Canada <£27. Ho could not find out what was tho maximum in Britain. It seemed to be indefinite. And he had been given to understand that with one exception the pension paid to the wife of a soldier here had never been less than tho ponsion fixed for a wife in Australia. He wished to 1)3 perfectly candid, however, and to admit that the widow of a Soldier, a lady with nn income of ,£ISOO a year, had applied for a pension, and had been refused one. Ho made no remark on the case, but ho referred to it to show that the administration of the board had been fair. In no singlo case had tho amonut granted m respect of' a child teen less than tho maximum j>l3 a year.

The Case for Dependents. Members of the deputation suggested that pensions to dependents should be fixi;d._ That was the argument all round. Voices: "yes," and 'Hear, hear." Mr. Massey: Very well. , Are there any lawyers in this room? Chorus: Yes.

Mr. Massey: Why didn't they advise the deputation ? Do members of the deputation understand what they are linking for when they ask for tho fixing \>f pensions to all dependents? Under the War Pensions Act of Canada "dependent" is defined as meaning "wife, vhild, or mother." In New Zealand dependents include "wife and children of a member of tho forces, and any other member of his family who was in fact wholly or in part dependent upon his earnings immediately prior to the date upon which ho became a member of the forces." Then "member of the family" is defined as meanin? "wife, child, father., mother, grandfather, grandmother, stepfather, stepmother, grandson, grand-daughter, brother, sister, halfbrother, half-sister or mother-in-law." Is there one lawyer hero-who will say it is possible for Parliament to fix tho pension- for .every one of these people prior to the soldier being killed or disabled? Mr. Von Haast: Yes; it is quite easy. Fi.t a scale of pensions for them all. Mr. Massey: This is the most extraordinary deputation I have ever heard of. Am I to understand that this deputation is asking Parliament to provide by statute a scale of pensions just as for a soldier, for his wife, child, father, mother, stepfather, stepmother, grandfather, grandson, grand-daughter, brother, sister, half-brother, half-sister/or mothcr-in-iaw ?

A voice: Yes, if they are totally dependent. 1 . .

Mr. Massey: If you are asking for that you are asking for the impossible. Mr. Von Haa6t: It is quite simple. Mr. Massey: . . . I don't think it is possible for us to do what some of the deputation are asking for. It is 'unworkable and unreasonable. He .asked tho deputation to consider tho pensions provided for'men who served in the South African war. He knew that tho times were different, and that the country was now richer and more prosperous, but the country was in a very good state then. And the pensions provided for the soldiers who served in the Boer war were:—Sergeant, Is. 3d. to 2s. 8d per day; corporal, Is. to 2s. 3d. per day; private, Bd. to 2s. per day. The rates under tho present Act compared very favourably with'those. Men in Camp. Mr._ Luke had raised tho point about the right to a pension commencing When tho soldiers went into camp. In actual fact it did this to-day. Mr. S. A. Atkinson: The right is subject to a condition that the board has to take into consideration the fact that' tho man has not left New Zealand. Mr. Massey: Why didn't you tell tho Mayor of Wellington that before he came here? I know the object of this clause.- . . . It runs, "The War Pensions Board may take into consideration the fact that death or disablement occurred in Now Zealand." But that does not say that tho whole pension may not be paid. There may-bo cases whero it is right to reduce the pension.

A voico: Tho Act says "The Board shall take into consideration."

Mr. Massey (after reference again to the Act): Tho word is "may," not "shall." Another mistake of the lawyers!

Allowance to Officers. There might bo some'merit in the request for a more liberal allowance to officer for the purchase of their kit, ho tfontinued, and he was'not going to quibble over a few pounds for officers' outfits. (Hear, hear.) "But," he said, "I Had a boy who went to the front as an officer, nnd he didn't tell me that ,£2O was too little for his outfit. I never heard a word about it from him." Pensions Payable Abroad. ' Mr. Massey next referred to the request that pensions should be payable where the pensioners were domiciled. He admitted that anyone reading the Act would suppose that pensions were not to be payable to' persons in other countries. . This was not so. The Act was phrased in this way in order that New Zealand might mako reciprocal arrangements with other countries about.the payment of pensions. In actual fact, payments to people outside New Zealand had already been made. Cases of this sort Which occurred were referred to thg Government, and were dealt with by Cabinet on their merits. 1 If, however, amendments were needed in this section of the Act, lie had not the slightest doubt that the amendments would be made.' (Hear, hear.) . The Taxation Burden. Mr. Massey spoke of the suggestion that there might be mora .taxes, and about' taxation generally: "I would ask the deputation to remember this," he said, "that when we were introducing new taxation. we endeavoured in every way we could to place the burden on the shoulders able to bear it. 111 proof of that I isk: Have we reduced the exemption from income tax? The exemption is now 2300, and the wage-earner is exempt. Have we imposed taxation on tho necessaries of life? Why doesn't somebody say we did in the way of primage duty? As a matter of fact, the one per cent, pfimage duty is so small that it is impossible to pass it on to the consumer." A Labour representative: But they do; they make it more. Mr. Massey said that some things had advanced in price for other reasons, but it was also true that some of the necessaries of life had gone down in price since the passing of the Finance Act. Meat was cheaper, and butter was cheaper. He believed the cost of living was. less sinte the passing of the Act, and he did not think, it would go up again unless the war lasted much longer. If the Government had to increase taxation further, it might be that the cost of living would be increased. Convene Parliament? ■ Mr. Massey said it had been suggested that Parliament should be convened. Mr.'Fletcher: Good suggestion that. Professor Hunter: We are not asking for the summoning of Parliament. ■ Mr. Massey said that it must be understood that the calling of Parliament was not like convening a borough council. Ho had read a statement that it would cost £10,000 to call Parliament together, and lie believed the cost would not be less than this sum.

Mr. Fletcher: We have got to do justice to tho people whatever it costs, and we are not doing it now.

Mr. Massey: This agitation has done no good, but a considerable amount of harm.

Mr. A. R. Atkinson: The deputation does not ask for this.

Mr. Massey: No, but tho question lias been raised, and I will take tho opportunity of dealing with it. After reviewing items in the cost, he repeated his statement that tho cost of summoning Parliament for a fortnight's session would ho about ,£IO,OOO, and he said lie •would very much rather see the ,£IO,OOO go in pensions to those entitled to them than see it spent in calling Parliament. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Wilford: Do it by telegram. Mr. Massey. I am not going to do anything unconstitutional. Mr. Wilford: It has been done before. Mr. Massey: I i; now there are precedents, but I shall not do it myself. "This Wretched Agitation." He thought tho Act was working well, but the machine should be thoroughly tried beforo being returned to the legislative workshop. Presently experience might show that the Act needed amendment, and then it could be sent back ■: to the . legislative jrMshon (a Uio ordinary, way..

Mr. L. A. Edwards: lij the meantime men won't recruit.

Mr. Massey: They won't recruit if this wctclied agitation goes on. I am very sorry to have to reply in this way. Wellington people ate not misled, because they are at the centre of things, and they know what jg doing on. But tho administration of this Act has been twisted and distorted and misrepresented all over tlie country in a way that has done incalculable mischief to recruiting.

"We Must Look Forward," Hearing what was being 6aid anyono would think that the Government had no sympathy with wounded soldiers. Let mo fnythis : that members of tho Government individually and collcctively are just as anxious to do what is right by the men fighting for us as any other set or men in the community. But we have to look forward. Somebody referred to a timo_ when there will not be so much enthusiasm .as there is at present. I can think of a time when thore will bo depression in this country.. It is a gooil country, but times of depression will come. i\o country can escape them. I can recollect a depression in the late 'eighties, and i. can remember Sir Harry Atkinson's iistiniatos being reduced by ,£50,000 because lie would not reduce salaries and pensions to Civil (Servants. It was almost impossible for any candidate to bo elected to Parliament then unless ho would Eivo a pledge to tbp electors that ho would vote to have pensions reduced." Mr Massey referred also to the difficulty and delay experienced in getting Parliament to agree to for Maori war veterans. Ho hoped tho Act would be left as it was, and when tho war oamo to an end, wlien we could see what our liability was, it might be that we should be able to make the Act more liberal. He thought thore should bo an exemption made by the board on insurance and personal earnings up to any reasonable amount. (Hear, hear.) He would aubmii this view to Cabinet, and lie hoped to bB ablo.to submit it -to Parliament. Mr. Allen: The board are exempting it now to a largo extent.' Should Married Men Go? Mr. S. -Y. Atkinson said that the Defence Department was now calling for 1000 men, and lie believed they would have to be recruited largely from the married men, or men with dependents. - In view of this some better assurance that dependents would be provided for was asked for. It . men with dependents were not -wanted, tho league would leave them alone,' but the league felt that married moil would not recruit unless given this assurance. Mr. Massey; A very large number of married men have gone. 1 don't admit that tho time has come when married men should go, but tho time may come yet. Mr. Luke: Married men are going because th« local bodies are making up their pay.

Mr. Massey: Yes. I don't bdiive it is absolutely necessary for married men to go. I believe there are plenty of single lien yet, and I think the returns of the National Register, which are due within a day or two, will show this to be tho case. . . . And don't imagine the Gov. ermnent is doing nothing in the way of recruiting because wo~we &ot making much noise about it.' I think when tho time comes to tell you what >we propose, you will be surprised. (Hear, hear.)

come tax per year:— Income, English Tax. N.Z.Tax. .£ ,£ s. d. £s. d, 131 1 211 Nil' ISO 6 6 0 Nil 300 18 18 0 Nil -150 36 15 0 5 0 0 GOO 55 6 3 10 0 0 700 73 0 5 13 6 8 1,000 105 0 0 32 1 8 2,000 210 0 0 134 11 8 3,000 516 0 0 251 5 0 5000 1,020 0 0 - 567 18 4 8,000 1,879 0 0 1,026 13 i 20,000 6,029 0 0 2,626 13 4