PARLIAMENT

Dominion, Volume 9, Issue 2588, 9 October 1915, Page 12

PARLIAMENT

ANOTHER LONG SITTING

THE COST OF LIVING

CITY LEASES

' ' /' "N APPOINTING ARBITRATORS

BILL HELD UP

The Legislative Council met at 2.30 p.m. ■ /-. v ■ •■ -. A Message ■ was. received from the House agreeing -to the amendments in. the "Washing-TJp" Bill, tlie Comities Amendment Bill, and tho. Municipal Corporations. Amendment Bill. The House disagreed with the amendment made-by the Council in the .Law Practitioners Amendment Bill, striking out- the clause, restricting the work ot King's Counsel. The Hons. Wigram, MacGregor, and Bell . were appointed' Managers lo confer with the Managers of the House on the amendment. COST OF LIVING. The Cost of Living Bill was received from the House and read a first time. On the second reading. The Hon. SIR FRANCIS BELL said that it. was not the case, as had been stated 1 , that the proposed . Board of Trade was without power. It was a detecting board, and would report on cases wliere it thought that action should be taken.

: The Hon. J. T. PAUL thought that it was a travesty on our legislation that a- measure of'such importance should be brought downin the dying hours, of j the session. The" cost /of living was a , problem that affected; our very national , existence, and next, to the war. was the j most . important-question.' at the/pre- . ;sent\time. ; ;I?or ; the:first time tho 'Bill . considered, to'-'an: extent,' the legitimate ( 'interests '■ of the. consumer;" all ■ ; other., legislation, h'ad been 'to consider . ;the*interests'/of/thS producer. He de-precated'-tKe-idea/that they,could have i a revolution'in the twinkling, of ,'an;eye. They ;should first have ' facts ''before '■ them/and the Bill would help them to . get facts.' ~.oiu\ present system of pro- ( Suction and distribution of the staple , articles of consumption entailed enor- ; mous waste. The old system,of produc- , ing/'bread :.was' passing -away, ' and the ( age':Of , machine-made/ bread Was .here. If tho State or the municipality, did not ( step in and make the change, it,would • bo left to tho trust to do so. The ; formkv would; be better for the con- : sumers. -They could not oxpect to get | their products at'a; triiei economical cost if .they followed a system of wasteful, production; Referring to the proposed , board, he thought it should have much wider-powers if it was to effectively deal : ■ with'prices.V Otherwise the board would, be oiuy a collector of facts—very valuable facts, it was true; He commended tho steps taken by tho Naw South Wales Government in dealing-, with the problem, and, quoted figures •to show- that the working of. the Necessary Commodities Control Boaid had saved the con- ; sumor. £1,401,000.. ( Ho. suggested that most 'of /the-sittings; of the proposed Board of Control, should he open to the Press. . ■ - ' : Sir Francis Bell: It would mean looki ing at people's private accounts. . Trader a Co-operative Unit. - Mr..Paul: ."Of course it .would." The public was vitally interested in the mat ter, and the question was whether the trader was to be looked upon as an individualist, or as a co-oparatiye unit in the community. The, trader would'have ..to .accept, and be , accepted) as .a. co--:.'operative'ainit,rfor, the .whole, system of '.trade-would hftveVto 'change;' /It. was. 'right that the public should know, the cost of production; one of tho reasons for many'strikes was ignorance on the •part of the public _of the_ cost of production on certain\ articles. Of course ho did not , pretend : that all the figures of a, man's business should be made public, but if -the community was put in possession of the knowledge that articles of consumption cost so much - to; produce,- thero'would not be so many complaints from some • seotions. lie cordially welcomed the board, but thought absolute power should be given it. We were living iii the hour of a great crisis, and we wanted to keep tho prices of commodoties fixed. Increases would only lead to demands for increased wages, and continual applications \for increased wages was not desirable at a time like this. He did not think the Minister of Industries and Commerce should be the chairman of the board; they, wanted men on the board with some knowledge of political economy. , xhe Hon. W. EARNSHAW welcomed the Bill as an advance in the effort to deal with this subject. . The lines sug--gested wero practical and''efficient. ; ■ The Hon. J. BARR tlmught that-i one of the outcomes of- f'he war would be that people would do something * for - j themselves to advance' the - problem.,j The remedy _of the high cost of living/ was more within the power of the con-/ sumer than ho seemed to imagine., ■ ] Rash Action Deprecated. - The Hon. SIR WALTER BUCHANAN said that he could not agree with tho Hon. Mr; Paul as to what had been done in New South Wales. They had attempted, to. control-the price of meat in Australia, .but the prices/there, taking soinc/livo'stock sales he had noticed- • iii Melbourne as an index, seemed to.be about double what; the consumer was asked in-New Zealand. He commended the' Government for bringing in the Bill, but he thought tlioy 'would be. acting unwisely if they attempted' to act rashly ih controlling prices. When tho board iyas formed it should go very carefuly forward; Ho commented on the fact that 1 -the conditions and /fl'ages; of country workers in New Zealand/had been greatly improved. He hoped;the Bill would enablo .tho-Government ,to, deal with the subject as far aa could possibly be done. < ■ ■ < ■■' ■>■■ ■ The Bill was read a second '.one, put through Committee without amendment, read a third time, and-passed. LOCAL BILLS. Tho seven local Bills introduced tho> ' day before were reported on'by' the Local Bills Committee and allowed to proceed;, They were all put "through final stages'and.passed.'V 1 ' SAVINCS BANK AMENDMENT. The Post and Telegraph Amendment Bill, allowing fixed deposit's to-be taken it -the Post Office Savings Bank,; was introduced from the House, put. through all - stages witliout -amendment,, and passed.; ~ LAV/ PRACTITIONERS BILL. Tho managers to the conference 011 the Law Practitioners Amendment.Bill reported that-it had been decided to reinstate the clause struck out. The report was agreed to. LAND LAWS. TIIO Land Laivs Amendment Bill was received from the House* read'a first ' and second time, and committed. A new clause.was added allowing the capitalisation of postponed rents. . ' Clause -8' was amended to provide that the fee' simple could not bo obtained in: respect of land concerning which any. mmag.privilege esistcd.

The Bill was reported with amendments, -read a tbircl time, and passed. THREE BILLS PASSED. '.The Public Health Amendment Bill, the Hospital aiid Cliiiritable Institutions Amendment .Bill, aiid. the Education Amendment Bill were received: from the House and read a- first time.

On J;lio secoijd reading of the Hospital and Charitable Institutions Amendment Bill, The Hon. J. G. W. AITKEN suggest--cd that if the-'members of the hospital boards were cu,t down by at least onehalf, there would be a great saving liiade. In this City it took more men to run a couple of institutions than to run the whole City. . The Bill was read a- second time. In Committee on the Public Health Amendment Bill, The Hon. Sir Walter Buchanan entered a protest against the lack, of power for appeal against orders prohibiting the use of houses ,or rooms for human habitation.

The Hon. Sir Francis Bell said that he would undertake -to lay the protests on the matter befort the Government before any regulations were made under the Act.

A new clause was added to the Education Amendment Bill providing power for the Governor-in-Council -to appoint persons to fill vacancies in the governing body of any educational institution. ;

The three Bills were put through final stages and passed. The Council rose at 10.40 p.m. till 10 a.m. to-day.' THE HOUSE ANOTHER ALL-NIGHT SITTING COST OF LIVING —— / The second reading discussion on the Cost of Living Bill continued after (The Dominion went to press yesterday/ Mr. J. M'COMBS (Lytteltonj did not think that 5 per cent, of the local bodies would take advantage of the provisions of the Bill. He contended that the National Government did not pro-, rnise to assist local bodies, but promised to themselves, do something to.-, reduce the cost of living. .. The result of-their efforts, had been that the "mountain had been in";travail, 1 aivd had, broughtforth a. mouse." ' •; Need for Immediate Relief., Mr. C. 11. POOLE' (Auckland West) thought that some mail thoroughly conversant with .the needs of the masses of the people' should be on the proposed Board. _ The Bill gave promise, of. relief in time, but the crying need was for immediate.relief. He suggested that during, the war period they should have'power to commandeer a certain percentage of the produce of the land for local needs,' such produce to' bo retailed at a . reasonable sum; New Zealand was siioh a rich producing country. that .there was no reason why the people here should be penalised by high prices,- while-one section of; the community piled up untold wealth. Mr, P. ,C. WEBB (Grey) said It had been made perfectly clear, that the Bill was' not 'going to meet the position. All the Australian States controlled by Labour, were still regulating prices. ;Mr.. ..Massey: - And., the • prices are higher- than in; New Zealand.

Mr.-Webb that'the extension of State enterprise,' he believed, would be the only .way to effectively deal with tho problem. Mr.'J. B." HINB (Stratford) said that tho cost of production'in farming had. gone up very nuich, and he could riot let all. the the. .lionproducers. ■; Ho : contend^ : tliat-tlio: Bill set out, to achieve the impossible, and lib.feared that it would do. little or no good. ;•

Mr., L, M. ISITT (Christehurch North) said tliat'farmers had told him that they had received prices for their wheat which they admitted they had no right to. Did they put tho extra profit into the patriotic funds P Somo did, but. there' Were .men who had openly de-, claredy their,,intention of not lending their mokey -to-'the Government,' but stated that they : would 5 sit back and take advantage of a;, hardened money market to extort higher interest from private borrowers. . Referring to the drink problem, he expressed iiis disappointment at the failure of the National Government to follow the example so well set by England, Russia, ana the Commonwealth of Australia. Answering _ a further. •'-. comment by Mr. Isitt, Sir Joseph "Ward said that they already had power to fix maximum and minimum prices. It was not necessary to jjutitin t.ho Bill again. Mr. Isitt) '.said that thei people of the Dominion would rather see the Government lose. £100,000 in an attempt to deal .with :• the difficulty than see them shirk the problem. He also desired to see an attempt made to keep down the cast, of mqiie)-. . No Helpful Criticism. Mr. R. A.. WRIGHT (Suburbs) said that the reason of the disappointment in til© Bill seemed t to be on account of the feeling ,of; soma members that the Government could in some magical way alter the present conditions. . They talked about iixing prices, but could anybody say that the attempt made in Australia had proved a success ? No man giving, had been able to control the position, and the critics of the Bill had not _ suggested one way in which the Minister., icould bo helped. : The only way he saw to meet tho difficulty was for the Government to purchase at the beginning"'of the seafion sufficient of the products of the land to meet the needs of the people cf New Zealand. If that could be clone with tho c'hoeso, butter, and, live stock, great assistance could be given, tho people. Even if the Government made a loss .in an experiment of . this kind,, ho believod the country would quite fraely forgive them. :Mr: ■:J I . ANSTEY (Waitaki) argued that tliero could bo no decrease in the cost of ; living unless we sot about decreasing the cost of production by limiting bank and interest charges, and by organising distribution of certain commodities to Tcd'uco the expense and waste. Mr: T. A. H. FIELD (Nelson) said that members might be displeased 01; disappointed with tho Bill, all wore pleased that the Government .were tackling the problem of the cost of living.. ;He believed that the Bill would' do some, good. „ Mr, ' R'.,'M'CArJiTOI (Wairau) approved'heartily of "tlie proposal to set up aßoard "cf-i Trade. Mr. C. J; PARR (Eden) said that the Bill would be. effeotive specially in providing the necessary machinery to enable tho Government to use the very -' wide .powdre'"conferred upon it bv the legislation-of' last year and of 1910. The Minister In Reply. .■ SIB JOSKT'H WARD (Minister of Finance) rose to reply at 2.10 a.m. He said that lie thought he had made it plain 'that tlie fixing of prices had been a. {failure. • 110 * had been amazed at some of 'the criticism, bccause members talked of the ineffectiveness of the Bill, and showed that they were not aware of the contents of the. Bill. The Government had already got on tho Statute Book oil the powers to give, efect te nil the recommendations of tho member for Rutt, who had asked him tc inform. the House of tlie simple effect of.. the Bill. When this Bill was on the Statute Book the.y would have the most 'advanced legislation in the world, taking llie Bill in conjunction with the 1 Trade and Commerce Act and the Commercial Trusts -Act, The law at prejent nave tliein power to fix at anj ■'time the maximum prires of goods, aiic 1 rower to alter those prices by Order-in-Council, , . , , ; Mr, "SVilfcrd; You say you can, do thai n<mr«

Sir Joseph Ward: We say we can do. it now. The member forgot the law. He misled all the other .speakers. Somo of them hod gono homo to Bed, and lie was sorry they were not present to take their gruel. The member for Dunedin North said something about commandcering. Sir Joseph Ward thought lie made it plain that commandeering in war time was different to commandeering in peace time. He pointed out they had power to commanded- anything in war time.

Mr. Walker: Why hasn't it been done P

Sir Joseph Ward: That is aijother matter. He told the member for Hutt that he should look up the law before trying to criticise the Government. Ho had misled the members. Tho Commercial Trust Act of . 1910 provided for the prosecution-of any person or firm or combination of persons. A prosecution could be taken against individuals. The present Bill had been drafted with a knowledge of the Commercial Trust Act, which gave to power to prosecute. The member for Hutt deplored tho fact that the proposed board did not nave the bower to prosecute immediately. In New South Wales the Commissioners reported to the Governor first.-' Supervision of Board Necessary. . If tlio members thought that the Government was going to allow any board to run riot without the Goremor-in-Couricil having anything to do with it they were* suggesting a system of panic in this country. If that was done' 1 tho first people to be up opposing it would be the non. members who nad made such a suggestion. The member for Hutt referrfea to the primage duty, and said ho was against it -. He stopped' short of giving the necessary, replacement for it._ -He suggested free trade with the British Empire. Did he suggest that was • going to give us £200,000? - Mr, Wilford: That and taxation of war profits. Sir Joseph Ward asked did anyone' mean td say that there had been a profit of £4,000,000 in any one year as tho result of tho. war.

". Mr.. Wilford: No. : . Sir. Joseph Ward i said the hon, member for Grey would have preferred 10 to 15 per cent.»tax on war profits. If they took 15 per cent, on £4,000,000 it would only mean £600,000 extra to carry, on the affairs of tho country. The Government hnd given aii increase of ' £619,000 on land, graduated land tax, and income tax, an increase on tlio farmers' income, tax -of • • £180,000, £05,000' extra out of the mortgage tax, £35,000 out of ■ the inoome upon mortgages, and they had also taken certainly half of the bank cheque tax out of those people who' made war profits. That was £25,000. Altogether £1,022,600 had been taken from the poopl6 generally maktfig profits during wftr timo. In making those taxation proposals the, Government had considered the war profits, and it was unfair to say that they had put it on the working people. /A chance, tad been given for the people to feel' as little as possible t-he war tax. Keeping 'interest Down. The member for Grey Lyni suggested that tliey should', commandeer the banks, and the member for Christchurch North asked could the rate of.- interest bo Wpt down ? He was sure the controllers of finance woro, seized of their responsibility, and the Government hadbeen keeping their eyo on this delicate and intricate matter. The people in control of the banks would also do all in their power to prevent what was called a fhianoial upheaval There was plenty of inoney x in New Zealand, and it was the Government's* duty to let those people who wero controlling the largo financial institutions see that the Government was controlling the country on sane . lines. They had not rushed the New, Zealand,-local loan for public wdiks for she reasoii that they wore qot ready, but-thoy could hav6 done it. I; -was in tlie. interests of everyone to

.keep those rate's' dOTvn; for-if they were forced up it*, would, reflect: on everyone | m the future. Of all the. members who. spoke, only two made 'any suggestions as to what thc-y shoi-.'d do with the ■'fill. The rjemuer for Lyttelton had said that the local bodies would not. avail tliemseives of : the provisions of tho Bill. If that was so, then they had been misleadiiu; tlie country in. crying out for a reduction in the cost of living. Tha proposals of tho Bill were with the idea of allowing local autiiorities to deal with unfair competition. The proposed board had direct powers, and if it was necessary to take action under the. two 'Acts .to which lim liaxi referred, that could be done. lilr. Fletcher: What about rents ? _ Sir Joseph Ward: I think it. applies to ient3 % Ho proposed to giro effect to the honourable .member's suggestion, and allow trawler's, to be employed for procuring cheap fish for tho people. Tlio Bill was read a second time, and committed' forthwith; •: Clause 2 was amended by increasing the membership of the board by one. - The- following new subclause,/ suggested by Mr. R. Fletcher (Wellington -Central), and accepted by the Minister, was agreed' to:—''The establishment, equipment, and maintenance by borough councils''of trawlers for the purpose of engaging in. fishing and the carrying on, by such councils, of the business of r dealing in fish-as a food supply." The Bill was reported - with amendments, read a third time, and passed.

LAND LAWS BILL. The Land Laws Amendment Bill (the Rt-.Hoii. "W". F. Massey) was further considered in Committee.- ■ Clause 2, giving flower for a reduction in the width of. roads, was struck out. Tho clauses allowing for the acquisition of the of . Crown lands in mining districts were stuck up fox some considerable time. - A division on the first clause was called; and it wa« retained by 32 votes to 7.: The second clause on the subject was passed on the voices. Tho Bill was reported with amendments, read a third time,,and passed. The House rose at 4.45 a.m. till 35 a.m. YESTERDAY'S SITTING The House resumed at 11 a.m. yesterday. Amendments made by the Legislative Council in the . Counties Atn iudm6.it Bill, mdin the Municipal Co.--por.i ions' Amendment Bill were agreec Tho Improvement Author isation Act Amendment Bill was intra duced by Governor's Message, and rcac a first time. Insanitary Buildings. The Hon. Q. "W. RUSSELL raovet the second reading of the Public Healtl Amendment Bill. He explained thai the Bill was framed at the request o .Dr.. Makgill, Chief Health Officer a Auckland, who had urged that tin Government- ought t<J -nave power t< issue regulations dealing witlu build iiigs.or 'rooms'in which people lived. I was a fact that, in some.■ places ser vants' quarters were' sfnall and in sanitary, and the Bill sought to copi with tliis evil. . , ' f ,'J'lie Bill was read a second time and later put through its remaining stages and passed. HOSPITAL BOARDS. Tho Hon. U. vW. BUSSELL movei the second reading of the Hospitals an< Charitable Institutions Amendment Bill Ho said that the Bill dealt with tli vexed question of. the travelling ex penses of members of'boards. At pre -sent tho rules about members' expense did not.work well) and very often tli Audit Department had! trouble wit! boards noiionrniln? tlicmi, It w#s a!s k prsgOMd in the Bill to pastpans th

operation of tho legislation of 1913 until April 1 next. . ' , The Bill was read a second time,-put through Committee, iread a third time, and passed. FACTORY HOURS. The Right Hon. W. F. MASSEY •movdd the second reading of the Factories Amendment Bill, which, ho said, was to meet a difficulty that had oropped up in Southland. The proposal was to allow a condensed milk factory there to work on holidays aiid on Saturdays in tho busy part of the season. The Bill did not allow the company to employ workers on these days without' paying them overtime. The Bill was obstiucted by the Labour members and oilier Oppositionists in Committee, lliey attacked it on tlio general ground-thai no Bill to remove restrictions on hours. of work in factories ought to bo hurried through tho House without very full inquiry. Tho Prime Minister explained that tho company affected liy the Bill was Murrays, Ltd., manufacturers of condensed milk and other dairy produce, near Invercargill, and this year in the rush of the season, owing to the non-arrival of some machinery, they fear that tliey will not be able to get enough workers to handle all ,their goods within the prescribed factory, hours. ' They therefore applied be allowed to employ women and youths more than 44 hours per week.. ' After the blockade had_ gone on for two hours, tlie Prime Minister moved at-8.66 p.m. to report progress,'and progress was reported accordingly. '

THE LAND BILL. The amendments made by the Legislative ' Council in the Land Lajvs Amendment Bill were agreed to. CITY LEASES. APPOINTMENT OF ARBITRATORS. BILL HELD "UP. '■ V . The Municipal Corporations Amendment Bill was. returned by His Excellency the Governor with an amendment. ■""■-.- The Hon'. G. W. RUSSELL of Internal Affairs) moved that the amendment bo agreed to. He said that tho proposal was. that the clause, providing for a new., method, of appointing arbitrators should not come : iiito operation until January 1, 1917. He explained that tile amendment was the result of a of Wellington Corporation lessees which had waited upon liim earlier in the day. These business people had represented to him that they, liad. had no, warning of such an important amendment in the law. Ho had agreed to the new proposal on the understanding being entered into that ill order tlia*- -tihere should DO no local influence on arbitrations, no arbitrators should, be appointed in the meantime who were Wellington citizens. ■Mr. A. H. HINDMAESH (Wellington South) opposed T ,the new clause. ;. He said that a long experience in the. Wellington City Councirliad convinced him - that it,was extremely difficult to/find impartial arid, unbiassed men to, act as arbitrators. The lessees of. tho .Wellington City. Council, were among the; wealthiest men in the City; ; They had banded themselves into'' an association, and the influence of this association was'felt in the arbitrations.; In the period there would ho ten leases falling -due, and these-leases represented an income of about £10,000 a year to the City. Surely any man who was out for honest dealing could havo no objection to the Magistrate acting as third arbitrator, as the Bill pro-' posed. The reason why- tho lessees objected was.that'-they did not wajit impartial arbitrators, but men- whom - they oould influence. V He didnot- suggest that the arbitrators chosen under, tlio present arrangement deliberately: set about being unjust, but they were unconsciously influenced. The weakness oi the-proposal that arbitrators from outside should be appointed was that commercial men from outside the City could be influenced. - 11 Mr. T. M. WILFORD (Hutt) said it seemed to him that the arguments of the member for Wellington South were unanswerable. The real object of the postponement was .that those ten important leases would be -.fixed up in the meantime and the damage done,-be-fore fair arbitrations could be arranged. He would suggest to the Minister that there should be added to-the clause, "provided that leases falling due in the interim shall not have their renewal terms agreed upon until the date hereinbefore mentioned." , Dr. A. K. NEWMAN (Wellington East) said that these valuations for leases were a. burning question in Wellington, where there were valuable leases held from the City. His. opinion that the system of arbitration was all wrong. The council's arbitrator went for a high value, tho lessees' arbitrator for a low value, and the third arbitrator was the boss of the lot. It was a fact that some of the arbitrators appointed by Judges had not give satisfaction,; and the City Council had been shocked at some of tho valuations, on which leases had been given for long terms of years at very low rates. He thought it was a great pity that' the' Minister had given way to the deputation. ■ Mr. D. BUICK (ralmerston North) said that he had just heard in tlie speeches made the best arguments in favour of the freehold and against the leasehold tenure that he had over heard.

Mr. H. G. ELL (Christchurch South) said that' the Minister now brought down the amendment, and if the amendment was not agreed to tjie Bill would be dropped. The House was $ cleft stick. .

Mr. R. M'OALLUM (Wairau) protested against this method of holding, up a Bill which had been agreed to by tho House and by the Legislative Council.

Mr. J. T. M. HORNSBY (Wairarapa) protested against ,tlie attaching of His Excellency's signature to such an infamous proposal. It was a prostitution of his high office. Ho hoped tho House would-not tolerate this invasion of tho rights of Parliament. The Right Hon. W. F. MASSEY said he wished to enter his earnest protest against such referohce to His Excellency's ' office as ho had ; heard that night.. Mr. Russell: And by the mm who f/on't stand up when a Governor's Message is received! . Mr. Massey said lie hoped that this sort of thing would not bo repeated, or become a habit of tho House. Ho moved that the debate be adjourned to enable tho Minister and the parties concerned to consider the position further. Tho debate was adojurned. Mr. HORNSBY, in a personal explanation, said that ho had' been misrepresented .in the statement that he had said anything derogatory to theGovernor. What he had said was that the uso of His Excellency's namo for .the bringing in of thi.i Message was a prostitution of tho Governor's 'high office. Ho stated also that he had subscribed to Mr. Speaker's expressed wish that members shouldl stand when Mcssa°es from His Excellency were received? and the Minister of Internal Affairs had had two opportunities of observing this that very evening., THE MININC ACT. Amendmcnts'niade by the Legislative Council in tho Mining Amendment Bill were agreed to. DEFENGE BILL. The Defence Amendment Bill was, introduced by Governor's Message and read a first time. LAW PRACTITIONERS. . The Hon. A. L. HERDMAN presented the report of'the Managers appointed bv tho House to; confer with the Logif'iiitivG Council on tho Law Ptw'. tiUoaers AaendaenJi Bill. The report

was a recommendation that the clause relating to the conditions to attach in future to the appointment of King's Counsel, which clause was struck out by tho Council, should be reinserted in tho Bill. The report was agreed to. THE END POSTPONED. Tho ltigfit Hon. W. I'\ MASSES moved that the House do adjourn. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Anderson: Until when, sir?

Mr. Masscy: The usual time—'2.3o on Monday. (Hear, hear, and applause from both sides of the House.) The House rose at 0.20 a.m.