WAR PENSIONS BILL

Dominion, Volume 8, Issue 2519, 14 July 1915, Page 9

WAR PENSIONS BILL

IN COMMITTEE

INCREASED PROVISION URGED, In Committee on the /War - Pensions Bill, Sir Joseph Ward (Awarua) suggested ; that: the schedule dealing with disablement- might go . back to' the 'Defence .Committee, to clear up certain points regarding the rates paid in England and , here. li The Hon. James Allen (Minister of Defence) snid that he had 110 objection to .that course. . He explained that ; oiie of, the decisions arrived at in England' was that a married man might 'get from 14s. up to 235. por-week. That was later amended l up to 255. with an additional allowance of 2s. Od. for each child. It was not clear whether that applied, to the. unmarried man. . Mr.. J. A.Hanan (lnvercargill) hoped ' that the pension to a totally disabled man .would be made up to £2per week; He believed that was the desire'of the i < country. (Members: Hear, hear.) He also! held that 'ss. per-'week for. each, 1 child was an inadequate amount to pay. With regard to. t]ie Advisory Board, he would like to see .women placed on • it, for there was much work which they could specially attend to.; Mr. J. M'Combs (Lyttelton) thought . the. best way a grateful country could . sK6w.its appreciation was. in' adequatelyproviding for the men who went away., !The Minister had shown on ail actuary's report that tlio outside amount the pen-/ sion-would cost the country would be 1 £890,000,. arid, it could be assumed that that would be an over-estimate owing to/the high: percentage of • death and disablement assumed. Dr. M'Nab had also said that to increase the pension to £2 would mean an additional sum of £90,000. What did that'ambunt to? "Less than at ordinary dog-tax" to a family. Ho also protested against the . fact that there 1 was no definite provi- . sion made for .nurses'. ' \ Mr; L: M.. Isitt (Christchurch North) compared the standard of living hero as compared, with that of the average private soldier in _ England in- advocat- • . ing better provision 'for the ' disabled soldier. A paltry 255. per week would . . be totally inadequate. Mr. Hornsby: He had better be shot! Mr. Isitt: "r'think ; that many a man', faced with the position wiU put a bullet through his head.'- He pointed but that the: country spent nearly 8} million pounds in "drink and racing, and 6aid that ill whatever direction wo economised, it should not be in>providing pensions for the soldiers. ■ Mr. R. Fletcher (Wellington Central) : thought that they .might even go to v: £2 15s. as a pension for .these soldiers. The lower grade should be, raised. Mr. W. A. Veitch (Wanganui) said' that; New Zealand could afford to do better than England, for this was a wealthy country, and was increasing in wealth.' The principle that should bo established hero was that when a man went away to .fight.-.for■■ his country and came ( back wounded, the.. property he helped to defend should be taxed to support him. Tho minimum-should be sufficient to keep the men in a decent state. More for the Disabled. Mr. R. A. Wright (Wellington fe'ub- - urbs) congratulated the Minister on -agreeing to refer the schedule back to the Defence Committee,'and he cordially ' endorsed all that had been said in favour of raising the pension to the disabled to £2 per week. They were allowing something for an attendant,, but the proper attendant for a disabled man was a wife, and they should- pay enough to allow him to keep a wife.; Of courso taxation had to be faced, arid he asked if the hon. gentlemen on the Opposition side would stand by the Government in those taxation proposals?, He believed^

they would, and thought that all the members were prepared to pay a special tax.

Mr. P. Webb (Groy) said tliat sol strong was the feeling "that tlio right) tiling had to bo done that not on© work-j ing man would begrudge the paying on £2 a week, oven if they had to btl taxed for that purpose. * Dr. Newman (Wellington East) said that he was prepared to support a'tax on surplus profits to pay for tho maintenance of wounded men. Tho wealthy peoplo, and all the people of this Dominion, were prepared to do tho right thing,: and- 255. was a .preposterously .small amount for a totally incapacitated) man; ss. was also too small an amount for the upkeep of, a child. He also advocated that a definite amount .should be put in for nurses. The Bill was, ho tliought, a tentative measure, and- if the mimbors of killed and maimed were not so'largo as. had been'assumed, 'fhoy would bo able to do more. He feu. they would havo to have institutions for the maimed, that would be better for them .than pensions. ■ -

Mr. T. A. H. Field (Nelson) said that ho was sure the Minister of Defence would be prepared, personally, to go as far as any of them, but he had also to shotdder the'.responsibility of the taxation that would be imposed on ' the people of. the country. Nevertheless, he favoured an advancement to ■£2 a week. In regard to this matter, they did not want generosity or charity, but they, did want justice. Work for the Disabled. Tlio Hon. J.'Allen said that be had agreed to send tht> schedule back" to tho Defence Committee, but with regard to tho disabled tho pension was not the only thing that the .Government could give. He hoped tho blind and other disabled men would be found, something to do-rev-en the blind . could' bo found something to" do, and occupation was more important than a pension. As to the nurses, he _ thtught it unjust' of members to criticise tlio provisions, for no other • country had put nurses ui their Bills. (Ones of "Shame. 1 !) He admitted that some provision. should bo mado for the nurses ; but it was hard to put the definite _ amounts in a schedule. The actuarial figures lie had quoted on the second: reading of tho Bill , no regarded as' a conservative estimate, but of course the amount would, be ■ less .each year. ■ ■ Mr. W.; D. S. MacDoiiald (Bay of Plenty) said t'hat New Zealand wanted to stand out "on its own," and pay what the country could afford; they did not want to follow a precedent. Apart from this,, ho thought that .it was: the duty of the Government to pay medical and burial expenses of any man who died in camp here, or died within a few years of his roturn, as the result of the war.-': ■ ;

. Total Disablement. . Mr.' A. Walker (Dunedin North) isaid that -they wanted, some definite idea as to • what - constituted.. total disablement. A man might be able to .follow somo kind .of occupation, and receive some ' remuneration, and still'be entitled to the full ponsion, according to the Minister. But they wanted that in the Bill. . Mr. J. G. Coatcs (Kaipara) said that lie was quite aware that the Bill as it stood provided for 335. 4d. for/total disablement when., every allowance was taken into consideration, but he favoured making a minimum of £2. Mr. J. Vigor Brown (Napier) pointed out that it might easily arise that the dependents of somo soldiers might be alien enemies. Ulioy should not be paid a -pension-. ■■ _ - | : The Minister said point had not "arisen, -but he presumed the board would have power to deal with such cases. ;■

Mr. C.! 3. Poole (Auckland West) hoped that when tho schedule was. under reconsideration the Minister, would 6ee his way to put in another , scedule - dealing.. withV the., payments ~to. Jj'e• made for,, partial disablements It would save a lot of trouble afterwards.

■Mr. C. J. I'arr (Eden) thought that t-he suggestion was impracticable,' owing to the many lands .of disablement which would arise out''of the war. He favoured more provision for the children. . The Hon. A. T. Ngat-a (Eastern Maori)'thought that both schedules might be referred back to the' Secret Defenco Committee. . ■

Mr. J. Mc. Dickson (Chalmers) said that we : were fighting - for much more than property; it vwas for freedom, and ho was satisfied that there iv;ould be' no obicctions to taxation. Mr. G. W. Russell (Avon) . urged the Minister, to adopt an attitude of conciliation, towards . the Bill, and' review both schedules. .If the House desired the amounts to be increased, then the responsibility'/would , rest on the House, and evidently there was a majority ia the House whowanted the pensions to be enlarged.

An Example from New Zealanders. Dr: M'Nab (Hawke's Bay) said' that be had supported 1 the Minister Si the Bill,; but : ie could' not but deny that there was a strong feeling to increase the amount. He still held that they would get' the best terms for the meii if they'withheld the provisions till they know the exact number of men who would come under the Bill. ,He did not think the number of totally disabled would: come anything like up to what was assumed in taking out figure's. He thought that the Minister might give way as regarded the scale for children, and send the first,'as well as the second, schedule back. to the .Committee. At the same time he. thought the schedules would be amended next session. He thought they could easily afford to pay £2 for total disablement. After all, what did! a few pounds matter when weighed in the.balance with the State? The,young New Zealanders-lhad given an - examplo to the world of what they could do; and he urged the Minister to let the old New Zealanders, gathered in solemn conclave, give : an example of what they could do. (Applause.)

Both Schedules to Co Back. .The Hon. J. Allen (Minister of Defence) Baid that ho could not ignore tho feeling in the House, and he would agree to let the First Schedule go back to: tho: Defence Committee. \ - Tho short title was agreed to at 11.45' p.m. , The amendments introduced by Governor's Message earlier in the day wore embodied in the Bill. Rapid progress was made, and at 0.17 a.m. progress was reported after all the Bill with the 1 exception'of the schedules had- been agreed to. In terms of his promise the Hon. J.' Allen moved that the schedules should be referred ,baok to the Secret Defence Committee, and this was agreed to. The House rose at 0.20 a.m. till 2.30 p.m. to-day. : •