BIBLE-IN-SCHOOLS

Dominion, Volume 8, Issue 2288, 23 October 1914, Page 6

BIBLE-IN-SCHOOLS

EVIDENCE BEFORE THE EDUCATION COMMITTEE CANON GARLAND CROSSEXAMINED

CAMPAIGN INCIDENTS

The Education Committee of the House of Representatives' held a further sitting yesterday morning, Mr. G. M. Thompson, M.P., presiding, when Canon Garland was cross-examined on his evidence on the Religious Instruction in Schools .Referendum Bill.

Professor Hunter, who was to open the cross-examination, said that before doing so he wished to enter Lis protest against the unfair, method of Canon Garland as regards liis interpretation of his (.Professor Hunter's) cross-examination. His cross-examina-

tion would appear in the printed volume and people would draw their inference

from it. Personally he did not think a witness in his statement should give his inference of it.

Question of Irrelevance,

• In reply, to Professor Hunter, Canon Garland replied that he was organising secretary for tho Bible-in-State Schools League. Professor Hunter: Is it an honorary s position or a paid position? ' Canon Garland: Well, that is a.question I do not like. .

On tho motion of Mr. A. S. Malcolm, M.P.. the Committee deliberated bb to whether Canon ; Garland should be asked to answer the question, and decided that he should.

Canon Garland: I wish'first to say that I do not see what this has to do with the petitions before the Committee, is it is desired, I shall give it. lam paid to such an extent that if I was asked to write a cheque for £1700 that would represent tho loss to me. That is why i was reluctant to answer.

Professor Hunter: What i 6 the salary?—" That I decline to answer." Mr. Thompson: I ask you to answer

■ Canon Garland: The salary is £500. Again, I protest against tho question. It is only its personal aspect that I object to. Are there any other paid organisers of'the league?—" Not at this present moment. I don't quite know wnat you mean." . Any other paid officials P-^'Yea. How many?—" Well, I-will have to think for a little time." Later he said there were three paid secretaries. How long havo you been organiser of • the Bible-in-Stato Schools League?— "Over two years." ' Can you give 6ome idea or the cost up to now?—"No, I cannot, because I do not keep the books." . You speak of it as representing 74 per cent. of. the population ?—"Taking the churches, we do." , Do they conio from -the censuß figures? —Yes. ' • . Is it not a fact that tho attendances of people described)in the census returns as Augliioans is only 13 per cent.; Presbyterian 34 per cent., and Methodist 41 percent?— Well, I don't remem-

So, if all those attending at church were members of your league it would represent, roughly speaking, twenty per "cent. of : the people on-the electoral rolls of the'country? ' Canon Garland: No, I don't accept that situation at all. I don t claim, in any sense of the word, that the census return of the attendance at places of public worship is representative of i fact lam informed by clergymen that they object to that census, and do not send in the figures. . '■ Your league aims to get the opinion of the public?— Yes. - • How many meetings hare you personally conducted since the campaign started?-!' cannot say., Proceeding, Canon Garland said that he held one public meeting recently in WeUington, attended by a thousand people.- lhero was one in Auckland, and others. There were meetings-at Wanganui, Aramoho, Invercargill, Christehurch, Dunedin, and Bluff. He did not remember that these meetings were advertised for supportewpnly. Questioned. regarding two words left oui of a published ■ letter from Mr. Hoard (Now South Wales Under-Secre-tery for Education), he said that those were quite inadvertently left out. They did not purport to publish fully all tho correspondence they received. Summaries were made get something readable for the public... He dul no think that the teachers in New South Wales would be afraid to make statements contrary to tho views of the Un-der-Secretary. Circulars and Repllos,

He was told that they had ninetyeight replies from teachers in. Australia He would think there were about 5000 teachers in New South Wales. Professor Hunter went on to refer, to his evidence, where he stated that many Presbyterian ministers were opposed to the proposed scheme. Canon Garland contended that Professor Hunter could only mention eleven Presbyterian ministers.' • He tliougOT that was all he could got out of a possible 322 ministers. , Professor Hunter: Seeing that you only got 98 replies out of 5000, you got jwir replies from' South Australia and everywhere else, do you think it wise to throw stones like you have?"You understand there was nothing offensive in it? I mean thore is no comparison between the action we took in ascertaining opinions in Australia on this subject and the action taken by, tho Defence League in sending out a circular 'to every minister they regarded as in sympathy, and getting only, say, eLeHupporters. Ve did not pretend to send to .every teacher in Australia. That would-have meant something like 10 000 I suggest, if there is any doubt about'our replies being representative, that the chairman send a circular .to every teacher in Australia, and we will abide bv the result." ' . , , You said wo. sent out a circular and got eleven replies.' What justification Save you for that?-"How many have y Hunter: Wo did not send out any-circular. - ' . Canon Garland mentioned a circuiai which Professor Hunter said was later than this. "I notice," he said, a refutation by one of the gentlemen whoso name was attached, and I have been informed since that several of the names published are those of men who have loft the Dominion and others are not clergymen in the sensoof the word, as they are following some other avocation ""professor Hunter: It is more than eleven, though. , „., Professor Hunter referred to the vukins circular, recorded in the Queensland Hansard. He asked whether Canon Garland was * accusing tho National Schools Defence League.of incorporating the heading, "Prosolytism or SheepStealing" in tho circular. Canon Garland said that it did not Appear in tho Queensland Hansard. -Professor Hunter: Do you mean to say tho National Schools Defence League attempted to make it m<*,] that "Prosclvtism or Sheep-Stealing was absolutely in tho documents Canon Garland: 1 am afraid I got that impression. I would bo glad to withdraw it.. . ' . Trofessor Hunter referred to tho Presbyterian Assembly of Queensland, and aaid that Canon Garland had onti-

cised his statement that the Assembly was against tho proposal of the Bible--in-Schools League.—"Yes." Canon Garland read a letter from tho General Assembly of Australia approving of tho objects of the Schools League, and urging the Assembly and people in Queensland to endeavour to gain religious instruction: in schools. Professor Hunter: You knew that it was the Assembly of Australia that did that?—" Yes." Were you aware that tho Queensland Assembly had twice had tho matter before them, and had not approved it?— "They had it before them, but did not pass a resolution. They wore bound by the General Assembly. The fact that they had not passed a motion was not proof that they wore opposed to it." Pledges and Signatures, Canon Garland admitted that in their League there was a "Pledge of Earnestness." It was not to put the Bible-in-Schools issue before all other issues at the .coming election. _ Coming to the 'Palmerston petition, in favour of the Bible-in-Schools, Professor Hunter asked whether Canon. Garland would be surprised to loam that 117 . names were written by 55 people.

.Canon Garland said that he. would. The petitions were signed by electors and persons qualified to be electors.

Are signatures restricted to people on the electoral rolls?—" No. The signatures are those of people on the rolls or qualified to be on the rolls."

How do you find out? —"By checking the rolls."

How, if tho people are only qualified? -"Ask tho people!"

Ask everybody ? —"I don't say ererybcdy is asked. It is the general prac-i tico." x

Do you believe that a canvasser askel mo-to sign and said that there was a conscience clause for teachers?—"l would not be surprised to hear that an old lady—and I believe it was an old lady—got tangled up." '

Professor Hunter said that it was not an old lady.' He asked whether tho signatures to the petitions had been subjected to a scrutiny. Canon Garland: I don't see why they

should be .subjected to' a scrutiny by an outside body. That does not mean that we object to our signatures being i investigated. Inja deputation to the Prime Minister we said we would ba willing to allow our cards to bo inspected. Jn addition I have written to quite a number of members of Parliament personally making a proposal to them to inspect the x cards in their district. I think we have shown an extreme' and exceptional .openness in the matter.

If the Prime Minister had suggested, that the National Defence League should inspect them, would you have agreed ?—"No. 1 cannot imagine any Minister suggesting such a thing. The Referendum Bill. ! Coming to the lteferenduin Bill, Professor Hunter, asked whether the Bill had been referred to as the League's BUI. • - Canon, Garland said that he would not refer to it as their Bill. Bishop Sprott was not wrong in so speaking of the Bill. He just spoke on it in general terms. Professor Hunter: Did you take a part in framing that Bill?—"I want to know what you mean." Did you make any. suggestions to the Minister of Defence?—" Absolutely none." ' . ' , Did you make any suggestions to Mr. Jas. Allen?—"None." Did you send a letter (read) requesting that the Bill should be withdrawn from Parliament when the war crisis arose? —"Yes.'' '■' .'!...'; Proceeding," Canon Garland said he had sent out letters to the W.C.T.U., and was proud of the fact that'most of: the unions had declared, in favour of the league's platform, as against the Nelson system. In a document issued by your league you say: "Are teachers unable to give Bible lessons? The charge is made by opponents of tho league." .Have you any evidenco of that?—" Yes, opponents of the league have said that one of their objections is that teachers are not fit to give lessons." i I> want to know if you have the name

of one opponent of your! league who has actually made a statement?—"ln this case the name is not given, but Miss Halstead, a Queensland teacher, had said that the statement was made to her"

A Celebrated Speech. Professor Hunter lefeired 'to the lords'attributed to Mr. Atkinson describing the Bible-in-Schools Leaguo'B work as "political cant and religious bi«otry." Canon Garland said that no sooner had the words appeared, than they had telegrams drawing attention to them, and a great deal of indignation was raised. They decided to publicly protest against suoh. a description being applied to them. They were honest gentlemen, trying to do what they believed was for the good of tho country. He was aware that Mr. Atkinson, in his letter, wrote that ho had revised and approved of the report_ of his address in The Dominion. He nad left the objectionable words standing. Professor Hunter: The words did not appear in . tho. "Post" or the ' «ew Zealand Times."—"l don't know;, j Do you say Mr. Atkinson revised the' I read it in his letter.'- , ■ ,: Did not he say that he read it hur-" riedly, having Tead the other two reports?—"Ho did not say that till we chew attention to those-two words. It was when he found himself in a hole that he tried to get out." ; , • Do you believe he was not speaking tho truth?—"No, I do ■■ not suggest, that." You have virtually said so— SSo; what I would say, when he says, on the second occasion, that he read it hurriedly, that it gives me'the'impression that he does a groat deal of things hurriedly, and repents afterwards. _ :■ Did Bishop Sprott accept Mr. Atkinson's denial that ho used the, words?— "I. think Bishop Sprott did what ovcryono else did; he said he was prepared to accept his withdrawal." Canon Garlaud said that lie -had letters from 500 teaeihere protesting against tho action of tho Now Zealand Teachers' Institute in passing a motion in opposition to ' tho. Bible-in-Schools The Committee adjourned till 10.30 this morning, when Canon Garland will be. further cross-examined.