COUNCIL REFORM

Dominion, Volume 8, Issue 2287, 22 October 1914, Page 7

COUNCIL REFORM

THE THREADBARE .OBJECTION

NO MANDATE FROM THE PEOPLE

The Legislative Council Reform Bill was committed.

Sir Joseph Ward at once moved that progress be reported^on the Bill in order that the eleotors migjht have an opportunity at the approaching elections of expressing their judgment on tho pro--posod chango in the Constitution. His reason for doing bo was that tho electors bad never had before them proposals similar to those in the Bill. As precedent for the stand he .took on the Bill he instanced the law of the Commonwealth of Australia, which provided that no change could be made iii the Constitution there without being submitted to the people. This Bill; had emanated from the other Chamber, and had boen cot through it with very considerable difficulty after three attempts. In that way the Bill had been before the country, but the people had never given their voice upon it. The Bill could not oomo into operation until 1916, and this being so ; what was tho need for passing the Bill now? Rather he would urge that.it was the manifest duty of Parliament to defer final decision on tho proposal until the people expressed an opinion on it. The action of the Government in filling the Council with its nominees would, in tho event of tho Opposition being returned to power, etiflo the new Government, leaving only one course open to it—to ask the Governor to make more new appointments to restofo tho balance of power. If the present Government were returned they "would be in a different position, and would then be free to go on with their Bill.

Principle Already Affirmed. The Right Hon. W. F. Massey said

he was not convinced by the arguments advanced , by the honourable gentleman. In point of fact his only argument was that the people had 'never been consulted on tho proposals in the Billto make the Upper House elective by a system of proportional representation. This was the prinoiple of the Bill. All the rest of it was mere detail, and tho Bill practically contained nothing else. In reply to the argumont no would say to the honourable gentleman that on every platform in every part of New Zealand in the last election campaign the subject of reform of tho Legislative Council was discussed. There was no getting away from that: Ho would go further and say that a majority of representatives were returned to Parliament, last election pledged to the reform of the Legislative Council. He was not so clear as to whether they were pledged to reform it by election on proportional representation. . ' '

Mr. Russell: You didn't propose that at last election.

Mr. Massey: It was part of our policy. I am quite clear about that joint, and I have supported tho system in every particular. Hβ added that tho present Government Party had come back from the country with a, majority. Opposition members cried "Oh!" and feigned surprise. "Members who will deny that will anything," continued Mr. Massey. "Members on the other side were left in a hopeless minority. I know what took place after the election, exactly what took place, a,nd one of these days I will give my knowlodge to the public. I know the wires that were pulled. When we occupied the Treasury Benohes one of the first measures introduced, and introduced quite properly in the Loigslative Counpjl, was the Bill that is now under discussion. I don't need to tell tho House what happened. ■In this House the Government considered, it necessary for tho House to affirm the principle of an elective Legislative Council by proportional representation. I introduced resolutions in favour of that principle, and what happened? I would ask the Loader of tho Opposition was it not a fact that the proposal to make the Upper House elective by proportional representation was oarried unanimously by this House?"

Sir Joseph Ward: Affirming, the prinoiplo? Yes. , Mr. Massey: Affirming the principle upon which this Bill is based. Sir Joseph Ward: This Bill is not based on that.

Mr. Massey maintained that it was. The Government had done their best to reduce the term of appointment to three years in order to avoid delay in bringing tho proposals in the Bill into effective operation, but the Legislative Council had refused to pass the Bill. He was then compelled in order .to assure a majority in the Upper House to appoint men for a seven-year period. This had made it necessary to delay the coming into operation of the Bill. . ■ Precedents. There was precedent for this, action. The Abolition of the Provinces Bill when- it was passed by the Now Zea-r land Parliament could not at. once come into operation, and it was delayed for that reason. When the "Liberal" Government had done away with the Jife-term o f appointment of members of the Legislative Council in favour of the sevenTyears' term, that was an important change in the Constitution, and [the people were not consulted upon it. And in the three years that the, Bill had. been before the people there had not been a single petition or any-organised, opposition to it. The present system wai not satisfactory. The Government had .had to.makei appointments; to : .the Gpunoil,: and,- had made good appointments, from all sections of politics. Hβ hoped that the Bill would- be passed, and that it would lead to'the democratising' of the Council. ' ' . . • "Non.sen.sel ,1 Sir Joseph Ward denied l that the Prime Minister and his colleagues canie back-from tho polls with a majority. He had come back with a minority. A voice: Nonsense! Sir J. Ward said tha,t a huge jority had declared against the present Government, (Derisive laughter.) Mr. Nosworthy: Why ore you there then P Sir J. Ward: I went out because I didn't think I had a sufficient majority to carry on. (More laughter.) I didn't ask anybody else to come over to help me , to get a majority. An hon.-member: What] Sir J. Ward: There is nobody opposite can say so. Hβ went on to repeat the statement that the Bill was intended to strangle proportional representation for at least nine years, reserving to the Government ■ assured control of the Council by keeping the right of nomination in the meantime. No Real Crlevance. The Right Hon. W. F. Massey said the Government had played the game in regard to the Bill. If by some lucky chance the present Opposition wore returned at thepolls, they would have the right to appoint to the Council their nominees to ewamp those supporting this Government, If the Opposition were chivalrous they would admit that the Government had appointed to the Council several men who were not thoir supporters.. On the other, hand, for years and years the scandal in regard to appointments to the Council under the late Government was that never by any chance did an opponont of the party in power ever find his way into the Council. To return to the question of whether the people had beon consulted, he would remind the honourable gentleman that the Houso had, without a division, affirmed the resolutions embodying the main principles of the Bill. That was done by the representa. tives of the people soon after an election. Ho knew very well-what had happened at last election, and he knew filsd that a majority of members had been returned pledged to oust Sir Jcseph Ward. Forty-one had been pledged to turn him out o f office. Mr. Forbes: How many pledged to you ( v : Mr. Massey: Thirty-nine, Hβ believed that tho Council should be elective on some different basis from that on which the House was elected. Either there must be a difference in the franchise, or in the method of election. Personally he did not bejievo in a different franchise. Tho objection of the honourable gentleman that the Bill ought to be put into effect at once after it was' carried was an absurd one. Nothing would please the Government better than to see it in oporation at once, but the friends of the honourable gentleman had made that impossible. Now tho Council had been filled up, and if an election wero held at once, it would become unwieldy. Ho did not consider tlio proposal of tho Leader of the Opposition was a' reasonable one, and ho thought tho honourable gentleman would bo well advised to withdraw it. Sir Joseph Ward said that he proposed at least to take a division upon IT,. Mr. J. M'Combs said that a-s one who had declared in favour of ending or mending tho Legislative Council, and preferably ending it, ho intended to support tho Bill. lie realised tho Government had been faced with great difficulties in trying to'dovetail the different systems of nomination and election, and to say that an attempt had bc-en made to capture tho Upper Houso for one party for 10 years was not to stfltc the position quite clearly. If another Government wero returned, it would have unlimited power of nomination. "Hollow Insincerity." Mr. G. W. Russell said that the arguments in favour of tho motion to report

I progress appeared to him to he unanswerable. Ho asked whether the Governmont did not propose to use its power of nomination between now and the time when tjio power of nomination would no longer exist? Mr. Massey: The Government will do what it believes to bo right. ; Mr. Russell said that there were rumours that one very respectable member of the House was to he rewarded at the end of a, long career by elevation to tho Upper House. If the Government had proposed to wipo out tho presont Council altogether, and to elect ii lull Council by proportional representation, he would have nothing to say, but by his system of stuffing of tho Cduncil, tho Primo Minister "had made it impossible for a Liberal measure to get through it for many years. Tho Right Hon. W. F. Massey said the Government had certainly not used to the full its powers to make appointments to the Council. When he thought of what the Government might have done, Ae was surprised at their moderation. He quoted from a speech of the member for Avon, in which he had accused the Government of "hollow insincerity" for failing to carry out their pledge to make the Council elective. ''Hollow insincerity I , ' Mr. Massey repeated. Mr. Russell: Well, you hadn't done it then. Mr. Nosworthy '• Now you arc trying to block us from doing it. Mr, Massoy added further to Mr. Russell's discomfiture by saying a little more about "hollow insincerity." "liberals" and others. Mr. W- A, Veitch eaid that he was pledged to proportional representation, bat he would not vote for the BUI because he did not think the Government were acting in good faith in regard to tho Bill. Mr. L. M. Isitt said. he had been pledged to the elective principle, hut how he believed that the Upper Houso should be ended, to be replaced, perhaps, by. a revisory committee of experts. Ho saw nd' reason' far rushing tho Bill through now, and he would therefore support the. motion to report progress, ■ especially a& the Bill cqntain'ed "Tory evils, Mr. J. A. Hanan and Mr. H. G. Ell supported tho motion to repcrt progress. -Mr. J. Payne applied the term "oneeyed crank" to his fellow Social Democrat Mr. M'Combs, and was called to order on the inatant. He opposed tho Bill. Mr. R. C. Webb said he was in favoup of abolition, of. the Council, and he believed that the best step towards this would be the passage ot the Bill. Ha would, therefore, support it. f The Test Oivislpn. The motion to report progreßß • was defeated by 35 votes to 29. Following was the division list:— ■Ayes (29). Noes (35). Brown Allen Buddo x Anderson. Button J- Bollard Carrol} . 11. F. Bollard Colviij ■ Bradney Craigio Buchanan Dickie, ' Buiok Ell. ■ . Campbell Forbes Coatee Glover Davey Hanan Dickson Hindmareh Escott Isitt Fishor M'Callum Fraser Mac Donald Guthrie Myers Harris Parata Hemes Payne Hine Poland Lee Robertson M'Combs Russell ' Mandor Seddon Massey Sidey ' A. K. Newman R. "W. Smith E - Newman J. C. Thomson Nosworthy / Voiteh Okey Ward -^ eo " Wilford £• H. Rhodes Witty . ;J, W. Rhodes \ pcott Statham Sykes G. 11. Thomson Wilkinson i Young Pairs: Ayee: Ngata, M'Kenzie, Rangihiroa, Millar. Noes: Wilson, Herdman, Pomare, F. H. Smith. The Elections, On the clause proposing to divide New Zealand into four electorates for the purpose of Legislative Counojl elections by proportional representation, Sir Joseph Ward moved an amende ment to increase the number to eight. He argued that the proposed electorates would be much too large. The amendment was defeated by 81 votes to 26. Sir Joseph Ward moved another amendment to provide that at the first election 40 new members should be elected. The Bill proposes that at the first election in 1917 there shall bo electerr 24 new members, tho object being to dovetail tho nominative and the elective system, The amendment was defeated by 30 votes to 28, Women May Sit in Council. Dr. A. K. Newman moved an amendment to give to women the right to 6it ae members of the Council if elected. The Prime Minister said he did not 1 propose to give members any lead as t<) how they should vote, but he was prepared to accept the amendment and to vote for it. The amendment was carried by 37 v«tes to 16. . 1 This vote was taken on the preliminary formal motion to strike certain words out of the clause,, with the object of inserting the material words. On the motion to add the words, the ■ voting was 89 —14' in favour of Dr. Newman's proposal. Both results were 1 received with applause' and' merriment. The sixteen members who voted against' the proposal were: Messrs. ■ Allen, R. F. Bollard, Bradney, Camp- ' bell, Diokson, Guthrie, Harris, Hine, Lee, Nosworthy, Qkoy, T. W. Rhodes, Scott, Stathfim, Wilkinson, and Young. On the second division Messrs. Campbell and Young reversed their votes. Later Sir Joseph Ward moved an amendment dealing with_ the election of Maori members, to provide simply that ■ three Maori members should be elected • instead of being nominated. Hβ had in ' his original amendment, the _ words, "male person," to define eligibility for ■ election, but he said he would drop the 1 word "male." Mr. Massey: Oh, no, 1 Sir J. Ward: Oh, I think both races 1 should he treated alike. Mr. Massey: Don't make an absurdity ■ of it. Sir Joseph Ward replied that tho qualification for both oaeee hitherto had [ been "male person," and if an alteration was made for one it should be made ' for the other. He did not persist in insisting on tho rights of Maori women. I Tho amendment was defeated on the • casting vote of the Chairman. This 1 means that Maori members will bo nominated as at present. i To End the Nominative System. Mr. J. M'Combs moved to add tho 1 following now clause: "If after the date ' of tlio passing of this Act, and before ' January, 1916, any person is appoint- ' ed a member of tho Council, such per- ' son shall hold his seat therein until ■ July 1, 1921, and no longer." Tho Prime Minister accepted the ■ amendment which was carried. i The Bill was reported with amond- » ments. THE LOAN BILL. [ The Aid to Public Works and Land Settlement Bill, to empower the Govornmpnfc to raise a loan of £3,000,000, was introduced by Governor's Message ■. and read a first time, ' The Houso rose at 1,24 a.m.