BIBLE-IN-SCHOOLS

Dominion, Volume 8, Issue 2286, 21 October 1914, Page 9

BIBLE-IN-SCHOOLS

FURTHER EVIDENCE

EXPERIENCE IN NEW SOUTH WALES

POSITION OF THE TEACHER

Yesterday morning tho Education Committee of the House of Representatives continued the hearing of evidence on the Religious Instructions in Schools Referendum Bill. Mr. 6. M. Thomson, M.P., presided. The lfcov. W. A. Keay, Congregational minister, who gave evidence on Slonday, was oross-esamined by the Rev. D. O. Bates. '

In reply to a question the .Rev. Mr. Keay said that ho was in a minority of tho Congregational Union on this, subject.

Mr. Bates: , Do_ you .not feel.guilty of disloyalty to your Church in exercising your opinion here?

, Mr. Keay: Certainly not. • You have had . sufficient .experience in New. Zealand to think that the New South _Walea\ system should be introduced into New Zealand?^ —'Certainly." ' How long, have you. been in New Zealand? —''Between three mid four years." Questioned on the point of the conscience clause for teachers, the witness said: "There is no need for a conscience clause for teachers, seeing that the teacher is the servant of tho State, and that the schools exist not for the .benefit of the teacher, but for the benefit of the child." He added that unless the constitution of the New Zealand teachers differed from that of other teachers the New Zealand, teacher would find no difficulty in the matter. Do you think that Roman Catholic teachers would. tell you as readily (of their objections) :as they would tell their bishops, like Dr. Gallagher, Bishop of Goulbourn ?—"I think they would tell me as readily as they would tell anyone else."

Would you be surprised to learn that they had told me in New South Wales that they had objections'?—'l cion't say that it is impossible. I recognise that it; is possible in-isolated cases, but I do affirm that it is not general." A Satisfactory System. . Asked for evidence bearing on .his experience of the Now South Waleß system; Mr. Keay said that he had been a.minister at Broken Hill, and that his experience was that the system worked satisfactorily, without friction, without dissension, and he considered it safe to introduce the system into New Zealand. * .Mr. Bates: Do you not know that the free churches there have combined to bring about a system similar to that known' as tho Nelson system ?- " Witness: No. ■Professor Hunter then cross-examin-ed the witness. He asked_ Mr. Keay: "Aro you appearing here in your personal capacity or as a representative of a Congregational Church?" Mr. Keay: Of a church, but not theunion. Havo the members of the church voted?—" Yes—without dissent." Are you aware that the Congregational TJnion voted against the Bible-in-Sohools platform by 40 votes' to 2? — "Yes, but only' on one point of it." . Professor Hunter: I grant you that. . In reply to. other questions,, the witness said he did not think that a conscience olause should;be granted .teachers, "because you r willi require a conscience clause for a person selling stamps, if you start giving conscience clauses to Civil Servants;" : Professor Hunter: .Who do you think should decide whether the servant has a conscience? ; . Mr. Keay: The servant. -He ' added that if the teacher could not conscientiously carry out the work of the State he should resign his position. Asked what of the teachers who had been iu the service of the State before ever the proposed system was talked of, Mr- Keay said that if the people decided, tho teachers must bow to the will of the people.' Professor Hunter: Then what the people decide is right? ' ' . ■ Witness: Not'necessarily;.

: .Then, if the, State decided to establish Roman Catholic - teaching, they would have to teach it?—" Yes, if they were servants of the State."

And, if the State decided that everyone in New | Zealand should attend Roman Catholic churchee, would you say that that was right?---"Yes; or they should put up with the consequences." Professor Hunter: I am satisfied- with that answer.

Professor Hunter: Do yon.think it fair to decide .this religious issue by majority?—" Yes." Do you think it fair to compel teachers, without a conscience clause? —The witness answered that the teacher must submit, to tho will of the people. Presbyterian Minister's Evidence. Evidence was given by the Rev. John Paterson, M.A., Presbyterian minister, who said that ho could claim to be well.in touch with the system as it worked in New South Wales, having both been educated under it, and taught as a clergyman under its proVisions, and could speak, also, from his intercourse with parents, officials, and teachers.. He went on to Btate that he had never met or heard of a single teacher in New South Wales who considered that tho system was an injury to his conscienoe. nor had he ever known of a teacher who had rofused to give Bible lessons. As a boy he waß regularly taught these lessons and in two cases at least the teachers wore Roman Catholics. He had never known of any boys' parents refusing to allow him to attend the lessons except -in the • case of Jewish boys, and ho had never heard ot any sectarian strife in the schools; tie had never heard of a single case wJioro a headmaster objected' to tho minister holding his class. On the contrary, ho had heard headmasters, children, and parents complain of any minister who was remiss in his duty So smoothly and as a matter of course did tho system work that it was difficult to treat seriously tho imaginary troublos that theoretically might arise Phe matter was quite settled in New faouth 11 ales. It was novor brought up at elections. All'parties were agreed that it was- the best solution of the problom of religious instruction in the schools possible under existing conditions. . . . Regarding the assertion that teachorß m New South Wales could not freely express their religious opinions, ho said that he was not aware of any such restriction.

The Toacher's Conscienco,

, Professor Hunter: You aro, of courso, not authorised by the Presbyterian Church to speak hero? Witness: No. 1 am just giving my evidence. Your personal evideiico?—"Yes." The witness added that under tho New South Wales system tho teachers did not" teach "religious instruction"; they saw that the children read tho lessons prescribed. . Professor Hunter: Well, why do you propose to give a conscienco clauso to the parents? Witness: lam not proposing anything. Professor Hunter .• remarked that it was a proposal of the system the; witness gave evidenco in favour of. Professor Hunter: Do you not think that it would be fair to give a conscience clause to toachers also?

Witness: I think that I would he (personally) in favour of giving tliem reasonable protection; but I Bay that

the teacher is not asked to teach' religion, but dimply to hear the children road the text-book.

Witness added that there was a difference between tho parent and the teacher. No one was bound to become a teacher, but every parent was compelled to send his children to school.

Professor Hunter asked the witness to state his attitude regarding the New Zealand teacher, who took up his position under the system which now exists hero.

Witness: If teachers have been admitted, and they have objections, everything should be done to meet their objections. '

You are even prepared l to go the length of giving them a conscience clause—you personally P —"l personally am."

The committee stands adjourned till 10.30 this morning, when Canon Garland will give evidence.