THE HOUSE

Dominion, Volume 8, Issue 2282, 16 October 1914, Page 7

THE HOUSE

THE EDUCATION BILL END OF A LONG DEBATE After The Dominion went to press yesterday morning the long debate on the motion to commit the Education Bill was concluded. The debate dragged pn wearily' until 3.55 a.m.; when the Minister rose to reply. Twice the bells were rung for a quorum in the sleepy hours of the -grey morning. The Hon. j. ALLKN said two attempts had been made by the Opposition to "count out" the Bill. If either of these attempts had been successful-the Bill would have been killed, and the benefits to be given to teachers under it would have had to be delayed for a year. He would much rather havo seen tho Opposition attack the Bill openly . than by this treacherous method. Deferring to the Classification List to be . published'in June of each year, Mr. Allen said that he did not think the classification would be completed ■ by next Juno, but by the following year the classification should bo satisfactory. .The Committee, it was true, had cut out a clause of the Bill intended to protect secondary school teachers—the clause providing that in secondary schools the total amount to be expended in salaries should not be less than £12 10s. for every pupil in the school. The reason why this clause had been cut out was that if it had been left several schools would have had their finances very sorely embarrassed. In Committee he hoped' to make another proposal to. protect secondary school teachers —to make it impossible for boards to expend on buildings and other ' works money that should go to pay salaries. Ho also proposed to bring down proposals for tho payment of transfer expenses. Something had been said of the poor pay of pupil teachers, but he would remind the House that tho pupil teacher system would not have a long life. Tho Leader of the Opposition had been very unfair and misleading. Sir Joseph Ward had said that becauso it would be several , years before tho additional expenditure of £106,000 on increased salaries would be drawn upon fully, the actual increase' pnr year in salaries would be small. Mjo fact was that the amount to be ex- ' pended in' paying increased salaries to teachers in 1915 would be £76,000. Tho reason why the full amount would' not be spent in the first' year was that it would be a few years before the maximum salaries would be reached by the annual increments prescribed. With regard to the appeal of the member for Wairau for the retention of the Marlborough district, 'ho thought it very small-minded of that honourable gentleman to insist upon the retention of such a small district when he knew that the existence of these districts was a serious bar to the promotion of teachers. The Bill was committed, but progress •was reported immediately. Amendments to the Bill, all of which Mr. Allen had mentioned in his ronly, were introduced by Governor's Message. The House rose at 4.37 a.m. BILL IN COMMITTEE. THE BOUNDARIES PROHLEM. When tho Bill was committed, Mr. 3. Ji.. Hanaii said that he approved, of f.hs establishment of a Council

of Education. It Lad been, said that it would be a bpdy.witJi no actual powers, but at least it would be a step towards an ideal of Winch every educationist in New Zealand would approve. Ho was in favour of unifying the control of primary, secondary, and technical education. Hβ could see no reason for the sotting lip of three different boards in ono district to control these three branches of education.

Dr. A. K. Newman said he regretted to find. that the Bill did not remedy the grievance of teachers that their salaries were reduced because owing to an epidemic or something of tlio sort the attendance at the school was diminished. Teachers contended very strongly that they should bo paid on classification and not. on attendance. A reform to give effect to this would give more satisfaction than anything now in the Bill. They were the only State servants punished in like manner. If the business of a railway station went down, the stationmaster did not lose any of his salary.

Mr. H. Poland (Ohinemuri) declared that the Bill did not provide teachers with sufficient inducements in the, way of salaries.

Mr. T. K. Sidoy (Dunedin South! said that the passago of the Bill would be facilitated if an understanding was arrived at on the subject of boundaries.

Mr. A. H. Hindmarsh (Wellington South) Tegretted that the Bill did not contain provision for bringing secondary schools under more popular control. The present system needed alteration. At present girls could not find out for days whether or not they were te be admitted to certain of these schools. The truth was that education was not taken seriously. He went on to say that the overcrowding in the Wellington schools was shocking. Tho only way to get a, more satisfactory syetem was to introduce a more popular form of control. Further, every child who .gained a proficiency certificate should have a chance of additional education, and age should not stand in his or her way.

Mr. J. Payne (Grey Lynn) expressed | the opinion that our education system had been run on unbusinesslike lines. The head of the Education Department and the Education Council should run the undertaking. The Education Boards wero- only so many points of irritation, ■ and they were almost functionless. , The Suggested Boundaries. The Hon. J. Allen (Minister of Education) said that he wished to get the Bill through, but that at the present rate the prospects were small. ", Ho hoped that members would reserve specific remarks for the. clauses to which they pertained. Respecting Mr. Hindmarsh's complaint of the overcrowding of Wellington schools, ho said that already grants had been made for tho Island Bay and Wellington South' schools, and that the Te Aro school was not full. He considered tlte number of the education districts the vital issue in the Bill —it was vital in the interests of tlie' teachers. B.y enlarging the districts tlie scope of the teachers would he increased, and their position impjoved. He quite understood that members had local interests to consider, but ho asked them to divest themselves of local considerations as far as possible, with the object of making something like a Dominion scheme. He went on to say that lie would rather not have the Royal Commission, Later on, when they reached the schedule, he would make an attempt to introduce another schedule based on information derived that afternoon after he had met numbers of the Education Committee. Tiiere was nothing absolutely definite about this suggestion, which he would communicate to the House; so far, it was 'only a provisional agreement, and he would not say that anyone was bound absolutely to it. . Allen proceeded to state' the provisional agreement. The Auckland Education District, he said, would remain as it now existed, except that the coun■ties o'f Kawhia, Waitomo, Ohura, West Taiipo, Awakino, and two other counties would ho detached. Tho population of this new Auckland district would be 228,749. The foraicr district had a population of 242,000. This would be the first district.

The second district would be Taranaki, whioli would be reinstated, and have added to it the five counties taken off the south-west of the Auckland district and the "county of Elthanh which would be taken off Wanganui. Taranaki's population under the new arrangement would be 47,105, an addition of about 15,000.

The third district would be Hawke's Bay, to which would be added Whakatane and Opotiki. Its population would be 72,505. ■

Wauganui would be the fourth district, and it would remain as at present, except that Elthani county would be detached from it, decreasing the population by about 5000. The population now would be 84,258.

Wellington would bo the fifth district, and it would have Nelson and Marlbcrough added to it. This would' make the' Wellington district almost coincide' with the Victoria. University district, and would raise the population to 179,072. There was good communication by sea between Wellington and M.arlborough and Nelson. 'The sixth would be the North Canterbury district, which would have Grey and Westland added to it. Its populalation tiien would be 199,192.

Tho seventh district would be Otago, including Clutha, with a population of 129,246. . And I>he eighth district would be Southland (as at present), with 61,216 people. The Hon. R. M'Kenzie (Motueka) said that Nelson had no community of interest with Wellington, and he asked that its eoparato education district should bo reinstated. The Minister said that ho could not mako any promise. ■ Mr. J. Colvin (Buller) said that To reckoned the Bill a good one, but (speaking as onq interested in Nelson) unless tho Jlinieter amended the schedule ho would have some difficulty in getting the measure through. With the object of insisting on the rights of his. districts, Mr. Colvin' moved to report progress. He complained that Nelson members had not boon consulted when the new provisional agreement had'been arrived at. Mr. AV. A. Veitch, also, complained that some members had been loft out of consideration when Iho agreement was arrived at. He had. Sir Joseph Ward said that all parties interested shoukl have been consulted. He thought it would bo best to let the readjustment bp considered by an independent commission, which would havo to report to Parliament. Ho would not, however, support the motion to report' progress, as ho wished to see the Bill proceeded with. A Compromise. Proposed. The Hon. J. Allen said he thought Parliament should face the question of fixing boundaries but if Parliament would not go on with it, the only alternative was to feot up a ltoyal Commission. The Committee had decided on tho latter alternative. Ho icad a clause which he proposed to. move, sotting up tlie Commission to delimit boundaries. This clause would proyido that there .should be not less than seven or more than nine education'districts, that the report of the Commission should be presented to tho House not later than Juno 30 of next year, that then the House should by resolution approve or amend tho schedules t.i.-.ni-boundaries, and that the now boundaries should come into forco on January 1, 1.916. Ho road this clause to show that ho was very anxious to do Eiiythiim possible to ensure tho passage of'the Bill. .. , , .. Mr. C. A. Wilkinson saul that ho disapproved very strongly of what tho cciifcrcnco bad done, believing that, tho a"icemeut .was not in tbe interests o^

his district, but he would not press his objection to ,the detriment of what he believed to be the interests of the whole Dominion. Mr. T. M. Wiiford said that to report progress would merely hinder the Bill, and he would not support the motion. He thought Mr. Allen's suggested amendment an excellent ono. Mr. T. E. T. Seddon supported the motion to report progress. Mr.' J. .Colvin said he did not wieli to hang up the progress of tho Bill, and he would ask leave to withdraw his motion. He would accept the Minister's clause. Tho motion was withdrawn accordingly. Tho Battle for Taranaki. M-r. G. Witty said he thought the Minister should at once inform the Houso exactly what he proposed with regard to boundaries. The Hon. J. Allen: As I have already stated I am willing either to accept the schedule cr tho Commission so long as the number of education board districts is reduced. < Sir Joseph Ward: So long as the House has a right to review the decision of the Commission I don't mind. Mr. Allen: Of course the Houso will review the decision. Sir Joseph Ward: But I don't think 3'ou should instruct them to reduce to a certain number. Mr. Allen said the whole Bill was dependent upon the reduction of the number of districts, including the increases of salaries to teachers. He did not believe the number could yet bo reduced to four or five, although he had said that he thought the time would yet come when the number would be reduced to four. Mr. T. H. Davey said he did not think the Minister should set up a Commission to decide such a small question of whether there should be seven or nine districts.. If a Commission was to be established it should have some latitude. Mr. Allen said ho would leave it to the Houso to decide so long as the number of districts was not to be greater than nine. Ho would agree to a reduction below seven but not above nino. Mr. J. B. Hino said he would not be willing to agree to a reference'to a Commission. He thought the North Island members could fix up their boundaries all right, and if the South Island members wanted one, probably the Houso would agree to their having one. For his part he hoped the Minister would go on with his proposed amended schedule.

Mr. G. P. Pearco said he would be prepared to support the Minister's proposal to appoint a Commission which would report to the House. Mr. G. W. Russell said he did not think the Taranaki members conld hope with their population of aoout 50,000 that their district would be made a separate education district, side by sido with the huge districts that would exist in other parts of New Zealand. The number of education! boards would bo reduced by the Bill, and he believed that in the interests of the teachers and of oducation generally this was necessary. It was. inevitable that some education districts would, have to bo abolished, and members must make up their minds to it. He was afraid that the reference, of the matter to a Commission would not ovoid a fight next year, and tho House might us well decide the matter now.

Day of Reckoning. Mr. W. A. Veitch (Wangaimi) said that ho was not going to agreo to tlio suggestion of the Minister as far as it concerned Wangaimi: he preferred the original proposal. Ho said, also, that he was prepared to cast his vote in favour or one central control of tho whole of the teaching staff, .hut he recognised . that that could not be accomplished just now. A member: Why? Mr. Veitch: Because the House is not in the frame- of mind to do it. Howover, we should get as near to it as possible. Dr. A. K. Newman (Wellington East) considered that tho proposal to sat up a Commission was only putting off the ; ovil day, for, after the Commission reported, the representatives of the districts which were to bo wiped out would still complain. It would be best for the Minister to push the thing through during the sitting, and have the matter settled. Little districts had always been a drag on education, ho added. Mr. R. M'Cailum (Wairau) said that, being desirous of seeing the Bill pass, he was willing to accept the Minister's new schedule. Mr. J. H. Escott (Pahiafcua). said that he would willingly fall in with a. suggestion to Teduce the number _ of districts even if it meant an alteration in liis district, so long' as the revision would be of general benefit. Mr. T. Buxton (Temuka) protested against tlio elimination of the boards which Jiad "done so much good for education in South Canterbury." Mr. J. B. Hine (Stratford) said that ho saw no reason why tlio House should put off the day of reckoning. The first clause was passed at 11.20 p.m. District Councils, Sir Joseph AVard (Awarua) moved to strike out the words "district councils of education" from Clause 11, with tho object of inserting other words. Dr. A. K. Nowman (Wellington East) said that tho money which would bo spent on district councils could be better spent in augmenting the salaries of tlio teachers. Mr. H. Poland (Ohinemuri) also expressed disapproval of the proposal to' create district councils. Sir Walter Buchanan (Wairarapa) expressed strong objection to this proposed interference with education boards. Mr. Allen said that tho idea in creating the district councils was to provide a means of settling local matters, perhaps disputes, between two local controlling' authorities. It would be less expensive to settle- such matters by this means than by reference to the main council. A division was taken, ajid the clause was retained on the casting vote of tho Chairman. , Progress was reported NATIONAL PROVIDENT FUND. RIGHTS OF SOLDIERS'. Tlie House mot yesterday at 2.30 p.m. Tho Hon. F. M. B. FISHER moved the second reading of the National Provident Fund Amendment Bill No. 3 which, Qβ he explained, was intended to provide for the keeping alivo of the interests of members of tho Expeditionary Forco in the National Provident Fund. Under ordinary circumstances, a contributor absent from New Zealand for a period lost his interest in the fund. The Bill provided that contributors to the fund abroad with tho Now Zealand Expeditionary Forco should not be deemed to bo absent from New Zealand for tho purposes of tho fund. The Bill proposed to remit half tho contributions due by _ contributors during their absence with tha Force. The cost of tho proposal to the State would bo about £40 per month. The Bill was read a second time after brief debate. WORKERS' DWELLINGS. ' The Right Hon. W. F. MASSEY moved the second reading of the Workers' Dwellings Amendment Bill, in which ho said certain important nmend- ■ ments were proposed, tho " object of them being to facilitate the smooth and effective working of tlio scheme. Ho explained in detail tho o.hamios in tho law to bo effected by the Bill. Mr. T. M. WFIJTORD (Hutt) urged that in the event, of the Government .selling land not required for workers' (hvelluigsi,;,( should bo. pg.jsiblq {on jtoo

Government to sell to the local authority if the latter wished to buy. _ He mentioned that some of tho Wiiford Settlement at Hutt, if it was to be sold, would be useful to the local authority. Hβ wonld suggest to the Prime Minister • that he put on the "Workers' Dwellings Board a competent carpenter, who thoroughly understood how to plan and put together the kind of house necessary for a worker to Mr. 'C. A. WILKINSON (Egmont) said he would advocate that all workers' homos should be erected by a permanent'staff retained by tho board. Ho believed that by this method the buildings could bo put tip more cheaply and more satisfactorily than under the present method of calling for tenders.^ Tho debate was adjourned nt 5.30 p.m. to permit of tho Education Bill being committed at 7.30 p.m. The House rose at 0.9 a.m.