A WILD-CAT POLICY

Dominion, Volume 7, Issue 2211, 25 July 1914, Page 3

A WILD-CAT POLICY

SIR JOSEPH WARD & NAVAL DEFENCE

MR; LEE'S SCATHING SPEECH

One of the most striking of the Address-in-Reply speeches during the recent dobate,was that of Mr. Lee, in bringing the debate to a close. Mr. Lee devoted his time almost entirely to quoting extracts from an extraordinary speecii delivered by Sir Joseph Ward at the Imperial Conference of 1911, in support of his wild-cat scheuie a( naval defence. It is impossible to give all of the extracts made use of by the member'for Oamaru, but wo'reproduce below some of the more interesting., •'•■.-..

Sir Joseph Ward, in the speech in question, had been advocating the creation of a body which he at times called .an Imperial Council and at others a Parliament of Defence, on which would be represented all parts of the Empire, and which would have the power to impose taxation on all parts of the Empire. Proceeding, he said :— "Sir Joseph Ward: In.roply to Sir Wilfrid Laurier, Mr. Asquith, the point 1 want to make clear is this: it is quite true that any one of the Oversea Dominions to-day may give a contribution, but they may withhold it; and it is .quite true that in the event of any portion of the British Empire being drawu into a war, that one portion of the Empire might say, "I am not going to take part in" it," and they'need not give a contribution, although under interna, tional law I think they could not avoid having the responsibility of being a belligerent put upon them. What I want to.bring about is a uniformity of. sys-. tern for the preservation of the whole of our oversea interests.

"Sir Wilfrid Laurier: That is to say, the Imperial Council could compel us. ■ "Sir Joseph Ward: Wβ should-fis a basis upon which a contribution should be levied for sea defence in the general interests of the whole. "The President (Mr. Asquith): Your suggestion is that the Imperial Council, unless it is to be a mere academic thing, is to have the power of imposing that obligation? ' : . "Sir Joseph Ward: Quite so. "The President: Even oh a dissentient Dominion?" There is no- question about it,- said Mr. Lee, that after a lot of questioning the Right Hon. Sir J. G. Ward admitted at this stage that there was was to bo an Imperial Council with power of taxation for Imperial defence over the whole of the .Dominions. Tho report continues:— ; "The President: That is another matter. lam speaking now of the naval contribution. Canada has never given us a naval contribution. : "Sir Joseph Ward: I, know that is so. ~"''"'' ■'.*'■ "The President: And we have never attempted to extract one from her. Of course, we know our business better than that. I only want to understand, and I.think the members of the Conference "want to understand, what the length and breadth of the proposal is. Is'it that, so far as regards what you call the uniform naval system, it should be in. the power of this new body to impose ''in invitum, , against a particular Dominion, a policy of contribution to which that Dominion would not voluntarily assent? . ,

"General Botha: And fix the amount? ' "The President: And fix the amount.

_ "MiC Fisher: By a benevolent revolution,:! suppose? • . ~-.- "Sir- Joseph Ward:. As a matter oi i-fact-j'- if:'the proposal is to' establish an luettective -'nominal ■ Council which is going to holdout' to the eye the prospect of doing something of interest to the Empire as a whole, if we -are not' to" .establish something that has got some power to do good to the Empire as a whole; it is : far better to drop the whole thing." The whole Parliament scheme of the .right,honourable gentleman, added Mr. Lee, is saturated with . authority and power to tax for Imperial defence. The Right Hon, Mr. Massey: To tas the dominions!

. Mr. Lee: Yes; to tax the oversea dominiona. Then Sir Joseph Ward continues:— ■.-..-. ' k

."That is my opinion. We have to consider whether the time has not arrived, in the general interests of Great Britain and the whole of our oversea possessions, when wo should not have some uniformity of system of contributions, or whether it is- to be left-to the voluntary decision. of those oversea countries ,whose requirements for. protection by the British Navy are becoming greater every year." "Sit Wilfrid Laurier: There is a difference between a Council and a . Parliament. What do you propose, a Parliament or a Council ? I want a proper definition of what you mean, because you have- proposed neither so far. "Sir.Joseph Ward: I prefer to call it a Parliament of Defence.

"Sir Wilfrid Laurier: Very well. "The President: That is a very different proposition to the one in your resolution.. Your resolution is 'An Im- i Serial Council of- State'—nothing about' efence— 'advisory to the Imperial Government., It is limited, as I understand the resolution, to giving advice. \ "Sir Wilfrid Lajirier: When it is started it is to be a Parliament; who is going to elect that Parliament? "Sir Joseph Ward: I. will presently explain.it. . "The President: All I say is that that is not the resolution in any of those ■ particulars. "-. ..-':' . ; "Sir Joseph Ward: I would point out that the resolution is 'with representatives from all the self-governing parts of the Empire.' "Sir Wilfrid'Laurier: But you say . 'Council. , Is it a Council, or is it a Parliament? It is important we .should know exactly what is the proposal. • "Sir Joseph , Ward: I"prefer to call it 1 a Parliament. "Sir-Wilfrid Laurier: Very good, then; now we■ understand l what you ■ mean." ■''~"' ■ • Then Sir' Joseph Ward wanted to go back-on it:—. "Sir Joseph Ward: I prefer to call it a Parliament, although ladmit there is a good deal m the name. ■ "Sir Wilfrid Laurier: There is everything 'in the name. "Mr. Fisher: Would it not be as well to amend your resolution on thoso lines ? "Sir Joseph Ward: No, Ido not noso to amend it; if it is ■ necessary afterwards I should have no objection. ""Sir Wilfrid Laurier; You proposo a .Council in your resolution, but you advocate a Parliament. ' "Sir Joseph Ward: You can call it a Council if you like. • : " "The President: We want to know what you call it. "Sir Joseph Ward: It is a Parliament of Defence that I am suggesting. I have no objectimi to its being called by any suitable name. I think perhaps at this juncture I will state my proposal, and then later on I will deal with one or two of tho matters I was going to refer to just now. I indicated in my opening remarks on Tuesday that I would ask the conference to deal with Imperial unity; organised Imperial defence ; equitable distribution of the burdens of defence _ throughout tho Empire; representation of self-governing oversea dominions in an Imperial Parliament of Defenco for tho purpose of determining peace or war; contributions to Imperial defenco; foreign policy so far as it affects the Empire; international treaties so far as they affect the Empire; and such-other Imperial matters as may by agreement be transferred to 6uch Parliament. I suggested that the principles of the scheme should be': (1) That Canada, Australia, South Africa, New 2oaland, and Newfoundland,

elect to an Imperial House of Representatives for Naval Defence, one representative for each 200,000 of their respective populations; tuat is, approximately, Canada 37, Australia 25, South Africa 7,' New Zealand 6, Newfoundland 2. That is a total of 77." Now, commented Mr. Lee, tho representation in this Imperial Parliament from ovorseas dominions was 77, of which New Zealand had a representation of six. Then it was added to by the representation from the United Kingdom of 220 members. "What would that add up to?" said Mr. Asquith. Sir Joseph Ward' answered, "Three hundred." And these three hundred men with a representation from New Zealand of six. were to have the sole decision in the question of Imperial defence, and unlimited taxation over these dominions. Sir Joseph Ward goes on to state that the term for which they were to bo elected was to be five years, and there was to be a Council of twelve in addition to the Parliament. ; Sir Wilfrid Laurier asked if the Council was to be elected out of that representation of 300:—

"Sir Joseph Ward: No, I am dealing with the' Senate, which is to be elected for such a term and in such manner as each of these divisions of the Empire shall determine. "The President: With' a Council of twelve the United Kingdom would have two? "Sir Joseph Ward: Yes. . "The President: the dominions are to have ten. ''Sir Joseph Ward: That is the same principle as exists in all Federal Governments.". - Then, the President, Mr. Asquith, further on asked another pertinent question. He said-p----"The new body, is to have that exclusive power of treaties and foreign relations too. "Sir Joseph Ward: (1) Peace .and war treaties and foreign relations generally. (2) Imperial defenco and the providing of the revenues for the foregoing purposes and for the general support of this Imperial proposal. For the first ten years after the first election of. this Parliament it shall have ( no power of taxation, but the amount payable by each of the oversea dominions represented'as its proportion of the revenue required for the purposes I have indicated shall be deemea to be a debt, duo by eafih dominion and shall be raised and paid by that dominion to the Exchequer of the Imperial Parliament of Defence, (b) At the expiration of ten yeare encn amount shall be raised and paid in such manner as the respective dominions agree .to. (c) This Imperial Parliament to determine the amount to be contributed by the overseas dominions for the following purposes:—(l) Imperial .defence, (2) war. The amount to be contributed by the oversea dominions, estimated per oapita of population, iiot to exceed 50 per cent, of the amount (estimated per capita of population) . contributed by the United Kingdom for these purposes; but for' allother purposes, the. contributions shall be on an equal per capita basis. This is dealing entirely with defence, and with the Imperial, relations, aua with the relations that are closely allied with, defence of thoso matters which may ibring the whole Empire into a war. Now, again commented Mr. Lee, there can be but one construction of that paragraph, and it is this: that this Imperial Parliament was to have an unlimited power to tax this Dominion, subject only to this proviso—that we were to contribute 50 per cent, per capita, of the amount contributed by the inhabitants of the United Kingdom There was to be absolutely unlimited and full power to tax the people on all questions of Imperial defence apd war, to impose all kinds of necessary taxation on this Dominion, subject to the. limitation that it shall, not exceed 50 per cent. of. tho amount/per capita imposed , per • inhabitant ot tho United Kingdom. And that was tho proposal by the representative of Now Zealand which was thrown out at tho Imperial Conference." i '' ,, '' Later on the Right Hon. Sir J. G. Ward said: ••'■., , . . "What I, am trying to do does presuppose that there is a completed system of -local autonomy for the national divisions of the United Kingdom, and then all portions of the Empire would bo in a eimilar position from the point of view of their local Governments as far as the local autonomy is concerned.' That, this local autonomy fully established,' a true Imperial Parliament,' which at first could be limited to foreign- policies, defence, and peace or war, should be'set up, the local Gov-, ornmonts to have the powers they hive now.". ' ' . ';'.. ' Then the right honourable gentleman, said Mr. Lee, suggested that 10s. , per head of the population of New Zealand and of tho Overseas Dominions, on a basis of thirteen million white inhabitants, "would provide sufficient funds; but there was no limitation to the amount it could fix.' I want that to be clearly understood. Although there is a suggestion that 10s. will bo sufficient, there was no limitation of 10s. in the power to be given to tho Imperial Parliament. An absolutely free hand was to be given to the Imperial Parliament. The right honourable gentleman thought 10s. would cover it, but the power he proposed was unlimited taxation. At this state of* Mr. Lee's speech Sir Joseph Ward interrupted and said the quotations of the member for Oamaru misrepresented the position. Mr. Leo: Very well. Mr. Asquith, the President, was_present and heard the whole debate. He was able to pass judgment upon it. Ho took a very active interest in the debate, to find out what wore the views of our representative, and I am going to ask. the House to listen to the view that Mr. Asquith took of the whole position after he had heard the debate on the motion moved. . The Right Hon. Sir J. G. Ward: This is being done in defence of tho Government's local-navy policy. Mr. Lee: It is not in defence of tho Government, but it show-s the impropriety of handing over naval affairs to the control of itho right honourable gentleman. Now, Mr. Asquith-said in very courteous and well-expressed terms: . ■ "Sir Joseph Ward, in a .speech tho ability and interest of which we all acknowledge, which must and undoubtedly did represent the expenditure of.:a ■great deal of time and thought, has presented us with a concrete proposition, but it is a proposition which not a single representative of any of the other Dominions, nor I as representing for the time being the Imperial: Government, could possibly a-ssent to. For what does Sir Joseph Ward's proposal come to? I might desoribo the effect of it without going into details in a couple of sentences. It would impair, if not altogether destroy, the authority of the Government of the United Kingdom in such grave matters as the conduct of foreign, policy, the conclusion of treaties, the declaration and maintenance of peace, or the declaration of war, and, indeed, all those relations with foreign Powers, necessarily of tho most delicate character, which are now in the hnnds of tho Imperial Government, snbject to its responsibility to the Imperial Parliament." There, sir, in very short, conciso language by the President of the Imperial Conference, we have a terse sum-ming-up of what was the sum total of the proposition which was put before the Imperial Conference by onr representative. I do not suggest for a momont that tho right honourable gentleman intended to bind the Dominion. What I say is that this was tho , way that it presented itself to the" mind of Mj\ Asquith. Then, fur-, ther, Mr. Asquith said: "So far as the Dominions are con-, cerned, this new machinn, could inipose upon the Dominions by ths voice of a body in which they would be in ;i standing minority that in part of tho

case,' iji a small minority indeed, a policy of which they might all disapprove, of which some of them at any rate, possibly and probably would disapprove, a policy which would in most cases involve expenditure, and an expenditure wliich would have to ho met by tho imposition on a dissentient community of taxation by its own Government."' , . s

And I draw special.attention to those words,, because Mr. Asquith was there tho whole time. It is not what I say — An hon. member: What were tbe words? Read, them again. Mr. Loo: Mr. Asqmth said: "A policy, which; would in most casos involve expenditure, and an expenditure, which would have to be-met by the imposition of a dissentient community of taxation by its own Government."

Ifc,is fortunate; sir, added Mr. Lee, wo did. not send Home our representative with power to act. ■ . At the close of Mi". Lee's speech Sir Joseph Ward declared' that the quotations made did not fairly represent his attitude, to which Mr. Lee retorted tEat they were taken from the official report issued by the Government Printer during the time that Sir Joseph Ward Himself was in office.