PARLIAMENT IN SESSION.

Dominion, Volume 7, Issue 2210, 24 July 1914, Page 4

PARLIAMENT IN SESSION.

! U REFORM OF THE: COUNCIL. | 1 ii ' K-. .: ;jf \ . ■ ■ -. SECOND READING CARRIED ' ; 24--8. k-A ' ■ If ' ■ -M: 1 ' 'Viy.: '•: / \ ' ■ •: ■ '.■ ':y . IMPREST SUPPLY BILL. - >>/.[ ' V ''' ■■' ■■: ' '■v l ' V " : OPPOSITION CRITICISM SEVERELY HANDLED.

, ; THE COUNCIL ... ■ Tho .'Logislatiye-Council met at 2.30 p in >.• Tho Hon. J-.-.T.-PAUL continued the debate .oe tho second reading of tho Council Bill.;. Ho said ho ; stood uricpmprpmisingly the nominative system; arid He believed the •, weight of'opinion was against it.' Whilst he supported the Bill ho .did not believe thqy were creating the'; Meal , system.; liivhis opinion the-ideal Second;Chataber ■( was tha'tSof the •it .was adopted" hefai-it would" simply \ mean th<r,election, at one time, pf 120 : men. When'those members met a proportion of-twenty or thirty/>;would;be' selected- as- a»irovisihg Cliambgr. It gave .. all,.tho advantages of & r Serond;.pb§itf.'. ber, and nojl&iof the disadvantages. Norway bad Md none oft the difficulties ; of Mother countries with' 'their Second Chamber. If Kijßthought the largo elep--1 tbrates were goiiig to prevenfc.tfife: poor' man getting proper ho would oppose thpJßill, andShahgidn tothe' old but ho did : not. holievo tho large electorate was a < feri against the pobrjman. One of the Reasons helping that-.opih'-'. . .'ioii[was the result df/sie "for • the' Senat e; in Australia Over theKyery l ; Jarjio electorates there wi'e Laboiir Party predominated 'to a An . attempt had been made to'.frighten the people here into .believing'that as poon ' RSjthe Bill was passed, the/Senate was Riven over to the control of thci Labour Party. That was not so, and'members saying so could not differentiate between i the system existing/an,-; Australia and that proposed the Atistrar Jian system, wher'e- ; ih'ere%ero29 La'b? our members to seven of .the other party, was said; that as a Labour man, for the. Senate was not ' . truly representative^;the'people. 'They, did not want it a reflex of the .Lower House. The proportional representation system would provide for election by quotas, and-jwould'bo; truly represent^-; tiv'o of the feeling of the'country. He referred toy.tljg; suggest\(!ns;,tli'at : ";'thQ" principle outlined in the Post .Office . Square might;* in-'the r,"Council,/, They should not take.stage fright at?;; tho opinions of : a fewvextremints. That party did not command a majority ; of'- votes fn^-theV.:-Lab'oiir : Ao,.long as the. peopls voted thoy, would their proposed / great',;, party. would; prevail' 'for 1 ' it'Hvas''impossible to any system which would prevent the greatest party prevailing, but the proportional representation- system would allow*-kepr&{>ntatioiS ..for every . ©etion, iicdfirdfni; toStk voting strength.. ■ With tho proposed system' he believed :• .'Hioy would ;a Council trqly ropre- . sbiitativo of the" papple; v and mort fe- . ijilf to tho Tvill tlio. pcoplo; a Counciljwhich would be one of the greatest . Second Chambers in tho world,. \

%, .„of;'the■; Old Days... - ~ The Hon. CAPTAIN BAILLIE said that tho nominatiyo system in tho old days'-Jwas'. good,i>aiidl'nearly.'every section- was represented.' ' From 1891 up till the last few years they had Govern- "• ments occupying oliico for a long period, and the ".Council; .'-became .ipaoked with Government'snpnorters.' That' was not good. He was doubtful if proportional representation would do much for tho Council.- - Her Voiild • support the. Bill, knowing" "that' the ' Council should bo reformed to a certain extent. But tlio . present Government had fallen into tho 6aine Bm ns tlio Ward and Seddon. Govr erumcnt's. •' ~ v.■ ,t!lho -Hon. :Mri' Bell: We havo called the Htm. Mn bamuols 1 and the Hon. Mr. Ban.

, .An 'lionourablo-member:: How could you get out-of it - The Hon.-Sir. Bell: Nonsense, we wero under, no- obligation.. The i Hon,: Captain. Biulljov suggested that >the Council should bp an elective college. Or. they-could tln'ow four electorates together, and, let tho- combined local bodies .ballot for a member of tho - ,Dqun?ii. r Those: tadiesworousually/representative: bodies,i : . Th&llon., W., BEIOIIAN did not think proportional .ro'presentation.-.w'as.. going to give true representation./-'lt. would .be ■ a retrograde step to ask' tho pooplo to olect the. member?. .. ,It .wfls-all .'very .well'.of .the Hon. W.. Paul to. talk about trusting the .people.. • He would' iiot if be / was- a : -storekeeper., /Personally, ho Avould bo-,more' ur.favdur of..some-,sec-ondary election.-,' '~ .Tho, Hon. W. EARNSHAW spoke in support of . tho Bill, whiclr ho 'considered wa3 truly democratic iii every way? Mr. : Bell in Reply. The Hoii.' H. D. BELL, in - reply, dealt' first wi th -'{ho numerical strength : of'th6'"Council. "He was quite willing tp-'considcr tlio''question in Committee, mid-,)Vtis .quite, willing to mako somo al'teriiiion'tvy a' : -matter whicli was merely detail.' Ho' had appeale'd 'to r tho" Couri'Vil: 1 itst/'y c<>r";to'' pasfi tlie'Billi'-'arid -iiot fc - i t lib 1' Go vpi'hiii oil t'to' / the necessity "■■fit. irinking.extrV:appoihtments. If the Government''.wanted to get over tho dif'ficiilty; tjiey cotild propose: election ' of .the 'whole. Cpuiicil in l917;--Tbcy--'W6uld );ot ,do .that,- iiiid ho asked tho-members to assist him'in-passiiig-the-'-'Bill,' aiid at the. .same.. timc.;prese!^ r jpHni£r- • ■'os.ts''-of : ;,thV 'nreseht meifibersv- 'As to' 'Mr: .Barr|s. objection" to' the liirge" electorates, because it destroyed individuality,. ]je' would say- that- not one - mini . t-ver spoke to a tentli of the electors of liis'constituents.' The people -who went to the. meetings' of' candidates did not govern'the '.elections-. Tho/advantage of {h6''iarg^.\olMlMrato*';¥aß- : {l)ai{' the candidate miist' bo known' to' his quota. Tiic.Hon'.'Mn' Carncross'nnd the Hon. Mr. Joiies said that'the proportional, system'.w< l i)d . he; filling the Council with' party..; the Hon, Mr. Bnrr had said the* Couiioil would be filled with '•cranks,'.'"'-The crank would have to have the support of i 2,000 other cranks biforc lie '.could .be elected. " It -would be imimssn.ile'for the' candidates iiot to, be known-to tlio electors.- Despite ;tho largo electorates the Press would' fully sot out tlio .claims, of every candidate, and an elector who was qualified to go to tho poll would; be quite qualified to know'"the: possibilities of.the candidate, He innted.'.tlie'.aid of the hbiv.;.nfembp'rs wlieri the Bill' wwit'.tp .Comiiiittec-; not as hostile .cuticS-z /'L-have-alwavs -exconcluded. Mr. Bell,;, tlio-do, sire and 'wilHiigness' pf thc'Goveriiihb'iit ,to meet, tlia iCSpncil 1 in -Committee;-' and; to cbnsidqr quite honestly any prorxsal that might bo mndp, so !qng_ as t 'did! 'noii' mtcrfere with "the principle nf' flio Bill. I repeat that'-now. ■ I have ,done Tho;Bill before the fiouncil now is ■pho can, exf-opt or 'Mo details, pro'sont; .That does not say_it..is ..not, co.pablc of lm-proyement.-,„J.,d9-n?t "Pr.dof iheiGworpnieijt desire,.to be obstinate aboiit any matters. The end of tlio Tcit) o» principle has, I hope, come,

and'l'hope, ifVe'divide now, this will bo theilas.lj:division we will Jje called on to. take oil it."/ ... ' ' The Division. ; The Bill was read a second,time by 24 votes to 8. r •- . Ayps (24). Noes©). . Aitkeii Baldey Baillie Beehan , Ban- Carncross . . Bell . Harris CJjirsoit .* ; Johnston ' Ctollins Jones Earnshaw Ormond . Fisher Thompson' , George Hall-Jones Hardy ■ Mac Gibbon MacGregor , Maginnity I 1 ■ .Mills _ , . 1 - ; jMdoro". ~.Mprgan . .' '• Nikora' - • O'llorko . Parata . - Paul . • '' Simpson .. Wlgram„ --Tho-Council rose at 5.5 p.m. •