PARLIAMENT.

Dominion, Volume 7, Issue 2209, 23 July 1914, Page 4

PARLIAMENT.

COUNCIL .S[EW MEMBERS JOI# IN THE DULL DAY IN THE HOUSE-, ■•■ . Tlio Legislative Council met",at 2.W ■• >.m.< ',':■'-' Tho Hon. JV DUTHIE gave notice: "That "he would ask : the' Minister (1) ' whether the grave danger which" exists; .throughout Now. Zealand from; fire, risks* through over-insuranco, with .'its accompanying access rates of premiums, Has received the ■consideration of the Government : and, if so, do Ministers pro? pose to deal with the quostjoij this se>' swn? (2) Whether the system ; 'df cb- J insurance recommended in volume 1-1 of .. the latest Encyclopaedia .'Brittaniea,: and which is widely resorted to in the United States, France, and .Germany, has' had their consideration? ' ■'. (3) Whether the New Zealand State ,-In surauco Department, after its'teK years' experience, is now ablo to devisjva'tariff for risks calculated to meet the equities and to command general confidence." The Hon. J. DFffllE gave .notice to ask the Minister, "Why, in the publication of the statistics, thepopulatious of the boroughs of Petone : and Lower Hutt are not .included with tho City-of .Wellington, as,part.of its suburbs.'".'"'

COUNCIL REFORM: ;? SECOND READING DEBATE. : . -'" NEW MEMBERS VIEWS. - y [ Tho Hon. J. MACGREGOR continued" the debate on tho second reading of tho' Legislative, Council Bill. It was now nearly fifteen years, lie said,-since he had'had the honour.,of addressing the Council. Straugp.'fo .say; diis last words wore on tho .'-saino subject.':' He hoped the questiblV'. ; was'iiow-to be finally settled. Hfthad given' a good deal of thought and; consideration --to the subject .during the' time lie ..was absent ■ : from the-CouDcil, : and,he returned with •■" the 'samovviqws.ia's.hQ'lield that ; the Cotinfiilv;shoiiild:be''' : 'elective. , The question was;'a;,yiimcuit ohe)to'deal with. They were allVo'ff.opiriion'thatia,Second Chamber was hceessaryV-. That heing so, tlie real question, before them' Titos'-as to the form thatSccoiid/Cnamb.er should ■ take. Ho Wfis;: .there - were ..istill "smcnibers&in : ;-ithe v Council : of/' opinion i'.'-tniit l ' tuo was ;th'e: test; ." •And: tliose;;rracmbers* were -■ thp v blieS' . who; most:,- frequeiUlys'Veforre'd>to' ; -'thb' "voice dKJhejpetfple;*??; :H6ir'yid-tiiat come about .?; - He, supposed .it'was largely, a the.'.LiberalGov-:. • eminent tliey . :The i ßdn.-;mpmlwiTlfa€iSvno^triieW;;'- : ' ; The in •an ' perionce. iad-.fehowu 'thatjit i wag -; impossible. Thelliistory.'of nomitiated'Senateis' j showedjio'instances' of impartiality.' 'PorhapsJlib/receht, appointments of the Government approached' that."'""'"" "" The lion. G % Jones:;; Oil! Oh]-,;. .-•'.' .J A':Reward 'for '■ Tho sHoi&'l[K;*aiacGtr.egor :tiPe*haps ■-. tho lion, member-does not agree^'-with; \ me.' a faet/fttftaft in the-Colonial Council,; where-iilm/iloinA* inativpi system .'PT.oyailed,'f the;cpSy; : iri ;: power fdV'gdbd serr" vice by a seit-iitne^SecohU'Chamber.- ,-' In :Canada.::the'nominative system had - been cen'dejnned l .by.,;universar consent, -and agparently;;tner'e .was a strong feel- - ing, in; luppprt-'of. the' proposals duced in the New Zealand Counoil. The. Council, aB-.it>nbw : exis'ted, '.was , the Council 'Droughtyinto'osisteiice'i'by tlie Ballanie Government in 1891. Mr. ; Balance's' views on. a Second Chamber were that it 'should.. Be-a''deliberative''bbdy, not so; constructed/as"-to;;obstViict>'-iibel. will ofjthp,people,-' but/-to- /reconsider, questions- .put;.too thom> in-'./ a'.different,' light, and'iiltiniately, When public opinl- .. ion had declared'itself, to'yield'to the, : force seemed that ■vvai'a.lpglbaljroasoii-'fortKe 'exiatence- of ia"s^'nOody'."'.':.'He!'',s6ubtie'4.--if; the , sthte 'of'. ti^p,, 'ppiinoil bad •, fiillill&d' : those expectations.""The'reform 'of J lB9/L was ,no reform. new, thorp, ■ was a; genarallfedliilg that: .aii';'eJe4tivo'i body -ifas the oiily ftfte thafr*Wou]d. make 1 for anndeal Second Chamber. Last Sear .' a committee' Yet "ii'p by the WffficiKre^ : commended.-, that -theyßystpih: should* be election ''bj' trio HouSe^pf"Re- •; ;Tliat - recommonja'tiort showed how ,much the conimiltee'Jivas. at sea in. dealing.Vfwitli.vthp^cidestipn:,, 'Where? tho recq'vn/nondatiorr nored,nt was unaoubtklly.' : treated';witli:> 'contempt.- He-'feTt'---sufe'that'>Svbiirtlib',' lnembers of tened e ,to the ln'^idjliexpjdga'tjouMinister, tho jbonijinffj ; ed tll.a't they wei'e?WTongi 11 It> could.'ridt'. bo cofitended. systeni of T'here a,"eMnge>iii' tlie; tho Cc)uncil since lie was4'afit'in'itV'a'iid there wsre-now-indications.of bitterness,, wliich \vero. not_ apparen>._befqre. Evidently, if tlioro-.vy.a.s ■np;'partyy"thbre'"was' a lot of party;feeling now. , '.'■'" Tho Hon.';G:'Jones :""Was'tlio party all on one .side?' •-. - v : ~,,-:. The Hon. Mr. MacGregor \^ have ; not the least,- objection, so/long as'it .is im ! ,tho right)side.. '<} : * ."■ •'• .-,- V '•''.--, ;The \idovernmont Sincere. ■':■■'■■'.'■■'■ Therb-. had ; been - suggestions,' that; tlio Goveniment was not: sincere/hi' its desiro to'; : fcform the Council.; Ho was unable to;; 1 conceive how-the, Government > could havo.given any :stroiiger.indication; of its Sincerity : than ; it -liad.given. It was cloar;'that,-not'only;was the-.Goy-ernmoht sincere, 5 hut it was determined to tho' determined .wish; and wili'ef tlio'electors/ ■ " : ■ ' : Tlie Hon."VW C. I''.' CARNCROSS Lhouglit •'thC'Coiiirtry was .to- bo -congratulated on the return to tho Council of thovHon. Mr. MacGregor. He had aiade Shis-mark v wheu a,.-, member,, although his " viewsl'l It -was a-, coincidence.'.that .'.ho mado'-his opening speech on 'the', sariie subject as his lnst.uttciaiiceswere made on. IvWhen ho was in the council ho seemed always to be lighting on a losing side, and the' motions moved by>.hinV before! lie lcft-.the.,Council, in favour of an elective Council, left tlie opinion that it was the .last dying.'kickrof a-gentle-man who was sick pf his'.smt'ouiidings,' and had verv littlii;' regard-;for the institution. ..-.'...: ~^;...,.;,., , The-Hon. J T. l.'au|:'lt was a very good kick; ' ■-."'. 'v.';'';. V ,', ';. ; : A Matter of Consistency. Continuing, Mr. Carncross said tlie lion, inoiiiber claimed tliat-Jitv was eon-' sistent. 4X He had opposed, in'the past, the paymeht'of member's. " It would be interesting to see if, he was still consistent on the point,- and .would .move..an. amendlnohtthat members should not be paid." Reverting-to tne Bill, "he'"said : . that Ithfc-Minister; had.-.-int,r.pdiiQedT;}t., . with i.'a".fcrVericjT.".worthy "of;,a;better, sausS", Tllefe:had alwaysjbepn.'.ajchm-; our-for a- change in tlie" constitutiori'lIf they were-to "take'.tlie'electiyoSystem. to-morrow,- they .would still have a large body of clamouring to go _back to tho'n'o'niinntiyp system. ;, There--whs' 'always a .clamour for change. A-few shillings.wefp'to hp-.iiiado by a. change,' and somojeoijlo wouJflTiaVc.a-nnual clop-. tionsjns'tnadolitriehnia)..:; Uorefer'rpd. t<i the Hon. Mr. Bell's romwks.:thiifc a check might ho needed for legislation,,

passed lit •Mure by the Lower House,'' "embodying sentiments expressed in the IVist. Office Square. It was because dhfr^'-Jinight\jbe a. cloud arising in the -future'thaif-he hold there should be a nominative Council. . Men who were -hot;;respdiisj{)|e to the outside electors would bo" the-better able to meet any -crisis^that.-might' arise. •'The'llonrMr. Bell: Do riot you admit that the. Counoil might be swamped?

."'" ''" * r, Fpr Nomination. ~ ; 'Th.e-, Hon. Mr. Carncrbss: .When gen-'-tlomeii-get'/into tho Council they-are .very.tareluf... Once they havo tho responsibility thrust upon them they are prepared to drop any wild notions of the ■soap-bos:-..: There was a.changing feeling;"W favour of the nominative system." Even Tub Dominion admitted there was a good deal in the nominative system. He did not seo the necessity for introducing, the representation . system' into- the Council. If-' it was such*; a\good system, then surely the M'rst : pliice r to introduce it was in the Lower House. Party had been defunct hi- the Upper House since . the ;flon. Mr,.; Bell had Jed them. Time ■and again they could have swamped his strongest.policy measures. Tinie and 'again tliey "could have forced a division. What"did"they do? They adjourned to allow huh time to marshal his forces.' j It had. long been tho custom of newspapers to, cast accusations at tho Coun v .oil: and one custom had boon to cast .acfiusations.that the members were all 'old.- .•■ The ■•' criticism of the Council had never ( been • towards the 'work of the •; Council, but; towards the personnel. Ho was pleased toseo a change on the part of. the criticism ribvfy' in view of the. reappointments to.'the. Council. It seemed that tho of. the: Council now were men of liigh standing and held highun the .'estimation of the public They used to be-referred to as" "political re-jects,"-"fit; for tile Council dus(>heap,":. etc: Ho believed the' Prime Minister never had a more difficult task-than in deciding on the members .Who' wore to come back to the Council. They were pleased for those of their own side ivho had been . returned, . but would have, liked to see more of them back. People had been misled by' those advocating the elective system, and the public was beginning to realise that. , The Hon. Mr, Bell: Misled: by listening to you. ~ ;.. ,:.-;," The- Hon.- Mr. Carhcross gave the Government credit for sincerity in their desire to bring the Bill forward. They had party in one place, but should not have it in the Council, which'was .the only place in which a member could sit and give a straight-out conscientiousvote.. , . ! v•' Stllliof the Same Mind.

'The Hjpn. 0. SAMUEL said that; after the-'strpng opposition hohad shown to -the :meas'ure in the past, it became necessary for him to say something, else'those : in. favour of tho measure mightthinkrhis views, were changed, or "he. ;,was'shaken in his convictions. That •Was.'iiot.'soy-iiot one argument had been /advanced which had not been refuted in the_ past. The Leader had made some complimentary remarks about the.■manner in which he had gorieralled tlie ojh portent's of the measure last session.: idle to, contend now that they ihad-ar-majority against the measure. Their'-tnajority had gone, for" if was' Jpparent that the Government was'iii •earnest. The change in the Bill making iit come into operation.in January, 1916,-,.would not make him. voto : .for,tha BiUjj-hut>it;was- a '.valuable concession to opposed' tho' Bill. It was hopeless"now to proceed with the .against the. Bill, for even if, by a miraclo, they could defeat the,. Bill, the same power rested, -with tho; Government to make.their majority] -a minority..

: I ;:; . A Now Member. 7 A{. said .thatit was only right, as one of the inow aixpointees, that ho should give his reasons for supporting the Bill. Ho camo;-to tho Council with no pledge to support the measure, and he asked members to leok at tho question with minds.: He, was sup.porting it. because, he recognised that nieasuros' : introduced by' the Govern-'i ment'chrried out" Liberalism to.the fullest ijextont. It -wasi government of the people) for vthe, people, and by the ;peoplef' '•"- ':" . '■■•'! :;■ Tpe}' Hpjfo.C. H.: MILLS said".he .;thought the nominitive system had been ■$!&!?$ value; tho evil had been.in the administration of tho system. He was ■not j one' of* who could accept .".anyr thing' "hew -knowing"something ;aboiit,it. Tiioy had not heard what ad''vaiitages: had been derived hy thoso "Obuiitries which, had"made the change. -Mistakes ha.il been made in tho'past in New;!2l'ealand. but not one member'had- ; said l that-those mistakes would bo done ,awrty; with- under the '.elective system. As'ibbtlr Houses had affirmed tho principle ;fpr an elective Council; it'was notforjthem.to throw any great difficulties in lhe''wny. They wanted a-Senate to combjn'e , three qualities—deliberative, adnSini,stratiVe; -and judicial. .The diffi- 1 cultyj.'.linder tho proposed change, was •to frame something that would meet the '-'case..--He' failed to see how they could ,"do '/away with party feeling under tlie jeleptivo'syEtom. A better plan ; .would bo' •to : navo-the-.Lower Honse, conjointly ■with Hho-Council, elect, by ballot, the ;'me)hber's'. required for the Council. '■'.'] . Extension of Power. ' The,Hon.\R. MOORE, another: new member;, said that - alcno.ugii; llio .'could not' liopo'to: throw any fresnargumehts ..before the moaibers, still, as'a'.new mem;.b.er, 'ho could hardly give'a'.silent vote. The Leader of tne Oouucif had advanced all. the arguments necessary for 'the carrying ot ilio Bill. Tlio Bill extended the .powe.-s of: the : Council, and they would have freer powers' in connection | w|t'n .the legislation of ,tho country undqr tho elective system, but at'tiie sahie time they would not'be inlriiiging.pn. the powers of tho other House. .'Ho.rec.Ognised that the Council, in tho,past hail done good work', ■ and ho did not think.it should bo abolished. They had :still useful work to do in''revising, the v/ork of the otker, House, and under tlio new arrangement would'nave the .power to devise legislation; It was his intention' to ; assist' in passing, the Bill, and while'ho-.would.like soino; different, franchise to; tliat proposed, .ho". recognised it was almost impossible to devise anything elso;,tO' suit ■ the.; : case.' \ They did not wantthe Council a-'rcHexof the other HouSpj/andby'the large' elcctor•ates proposed, l ; lio." lipped , the; class of -.men olecced/.'wduldnot bo .altogether of tlie'.same, views .as .those'of' .another place. He/held ■,that'',thp '.Government . had a mandate frani, tlie people to' make the change. Co.jiicil, relorm had' been' oiie of the,- mqst iinpoitant planks of their platform, and -certainly'had; some influence on' their return." '-As* to the present system, he liad not favoured the oliiingn to tlie- sevon-year' term. of 'office. •Election for life, provided-tliat good selection 'was made', was the better principle. He -hoped the Council, under tho elective system', would be I'oiind-to bo'a .body working in the best interests of (iuv Dominion as,a whole. • " •

"Not So Impressed." '. ~ . The HoiCii. JONES said that ' \>a was not so impressed -with' the speech of-the Leader. i't.Was -the speech of an able .lawyer. The' Leader of the Council •'.liad expressed fear that a party might get into power composed of: those .who expressed thoir views from the Post Of,';.UceSciuarel"i' He (night just .'.as well have siiidx-there was a fear, that/ the '[lOsquiinaux-might; come here, and invest ;■ the shores/of this country. Under th<y i 'rtleotivo system they might get inert of the Semple/'stamp into the Council. v'Cho Hon;. J. T. Paul: Why .not, il i.bo pcoploj.clcct thoui ? ; The Hon/ Mr. Jones said that ini4taiiccs had boon given of oilier coun/trtcs maldnj»_ y the change. There was "iyt, ftnalitylsibouti'tlie Charribers in those, ,countries s and ho did not see that they

' were, "arty bettor off than was New Zealand. .The Hon. J. BAIUI spoke at length, on proportional representation. All. Mie- great leaders who favoured the system, whatever their political opinions, thought that it was going to benefit tneir particular party, 'l'liat could not lie so. Now Zealand, taken as !i whole, >iad' a great preponderance of Labour, but the troublo was to draw tho lino between, the many sections. Tho illusr tration given by the- Leader of the Council showed that Labour could only. ket their proportion.' He was still in, favour of tho elective system, but not because be was dissatisfied with the actions of bis fellow-Councillors during the seven years he had been associated with thein. Ho was not convinced that the proportional representation, system was the host, and ho still believed that the proposed electorates were too largo. The proof of the pudding was in the eating, and in_ Tasmania the proportional representation system had not found favour. . They did not want the "list" system here. How'many ' parties bad they? There was the Bible-in-school supporter and tho Bible-in-school opponent; the licensing' supporter and opponent, and so on. Did they want toigot a-Council compared! of-cranks? >■ The Hon. Mr. Boll: We are air cranio on our own subject. .'. , . ... , ■';[, Wanted, individuality. Tho Hon. Mr. Barr {bought there would be fighting and squabbling to get on the "ticket" of auy . r/arty..;. Once their name was on the ticket ihoir, individuality ceased. He wanted tue individual to come in touch, with his people. If ho stood for. election, his enr' deavour would bo to see : every constituent. How could he do it under .tho proposals which were to come into force? Fie could never favour, being a party. hack, but he failed to see how.a pool' man could get over the proposed.'elec-' torates. . That was one of the, weak points. A satisfactory:, representation would not be given to Labour. -He, hoped when the Bill got into .Commit, too stage something would bo done.to improve some of the- conditions • set forth. ' ■ ■ • • . . .', The Council rose at 10.12 p.m..; :