LICENSING BILL

Dominion, Volume 7, Issue 2208, 22 July 1914, Page 4

LICENSING BILL

NOT A PARTY MEASURE —- j. , . ' AMENDMENTS POSSIBLE ; ' BUT NO STATE CONTROL ' Tlio Eight Hon. ' W. F. MASSEY (Prime -Minister) , moved the second reading of the Licensing Amendment Bill. Ho said that ho did not propose to detain the House at length, because ■lie believed every member in the House had made up his mind as to' how to vote.. He had looked through the licensing legislation recently and he was sorr.y that; he .was .unable,this session to give the House an opportunity of dealing with a consolidating measure to do away, with some of tho anomalies in tho licensing law..: The-Bill had been -introduced to give the House an opportunity of voting upon a matter of public: interest as tho licensing i|iiestiou was. A great deal of interest had been taken in the proposals contained in tho Bill, and 'he had.been .delugod jtUh-let..

tors and telegrams expressing in the most cmphatic terms support or opposition to the Bill, and somo dealing with other matters.' Ministers had received quite a' number of deputations. He had received one huge deputation 'representing tho Prohibition Party. Ho had also received a deputation from tho,Trade which had protested against .tho lowering of tho majority- required to carry either of tho proposals. Ho had another deputation -representing tho moderates, who had urged that thoro should bo 110 interference with the liberty of the subject. Another deputation representing clubs .had,protested against any amendment of the Lw wiiich might affect tho carrying on of clubs. Then he had received another deputation representing barley growers and hop-growers in tho districts of Nelson and Marlborough, and they had said that if as tho result of the-low-ering of the majority Prohibition was carried,' their industry would bo ruined.

The Contentious Clause. Ho did not propose to discuss all the clauses' in tho Bill, but the most important one,- and the ono round which the battle would rage, would bo the clause to roduco tho majority required to carry National Prohibition; Ho sincerely hoped members would bo able to discuss it without any heat or feeling, and that tho minority would accept tho decision, of'tho majority,, whatever it might bo. Ho thought they were all agreed on ono point—that tho right should be: retained'to the electors to say'whether licenses should be issued in 'any district or whether , National Prohibition should, be brought into operation. Tho'only question at issue Iwas what the majority was to bo. Ho agreed with the proposals in 'the Bill, and ho took the wliole responsibility for it. The reason for tho discrimination between the majority for National Prohibition and local option was obvious. The boundaries of . No-Licenso districts wero > frequently.: streets or roads, and the carrying of local No-License on ono side of tho street did ha £ood -whatever. ' It did not reduce drinking, and did not reduce drunkenness, but simply gaVo a monopoly ■ to the man whoso house . was on , the License sido of'.the'l street.' He thought' they should discriminate, .between .National 1 Prohibition and local' Option, because local jealousies and-'personal likes and dislikes wero often a.factor m determining the issue on local .veto. This woulcl not apply to National- Prohibition. Ho thought the feeling was growing that it would be a/ great deal bettor to have National Prohibition for tho country as a wholo than to have a patchwork arrangement such as existed now. Mo Millennium. ; -Por Ks' own part lie was not a .behever in tho absolute majority,- either wr national or looal option; tho issue : -was'too important;to ho carried by a . bare majority eithor. way. Ho thought there should bo a reasonable majority in both cases, and ho did not think' the millennium. Would colne about when Prohibition was carried. Tlio' question to bt> decided was 'what that majority was to be, and the Bill answered that question now. - - "Worthy of the Honourable Gontlov > • .man," * There were only two othor clauses of any importanco in the Bill—the clause dealing with ballot papers, - and the clause dealing with barmaids. Ho had been informed by deputation and otherwise -. that- the • ballot' papers' in rise for the national 'veto 'at last-poll were c'oiifusmg, and- the - new clause sought to put this right. - As ho read the issues, it p ® said: Oh, yes—no, isil't ■ ! Mr Massoy: Thcfe yes' no whoii tho division boll rings. You'll have to go.-into the lobby. ■ Mr. Russoll: Wo'll seo ; whether'tho' Government :is .solid," - . Mr. Massey: Thei-honourable man raises that-question, and he raises It in a manner worthy of him! Ho "is been in.thei House for many years, and lie knoivs that on the-many occasions on whiolv tho licensing question has: been before'the House it has nover ■peen a -party -issue'. -' 'Sir Jv Ward: Do 4 majority of the Ministers'favour this . Bill P i ■ 'Mr. Massey: We'll see when the division bell rings. I understand the honourablo gentleman -has had a great deal of trouble in making .up iiis mind. I know'where I am going.. Sir J. Ward: I know where I am going. ' ; Mr. Massoy: I hopo the honourable gontlenian will conio with me for once. Tho other clause'of the Bill, ho. continued/ referred to Barmaids, and it was intendod to give effect to-tho' intention of the Bill of. 1910. However,'itseemed that by the judgment of tho Appeal Court the previous day, the now' clause was not so necessary as it appeared to be when the Bill was drafted. The judgment of the Court seeined to be emphatic, and in" l view of this he thought.-it would bo wise to move in Committee to strike the now clause out.,| Finance Difficulties. The Government,, lie thought, should regard the licensing questions' from many points of view, and one of them was tho point of view of.finance? If tho Bill were carried, and National 'Prohibition were carried, it would involve a most important alteration in our financial arrangements, and timo would bo required to mako -that alteration. He could seo in tho future aj ! biilitlo if ever tho Bjll was carried over : tho question of whether-the deficiency in the .rovoriue,] consequent upon the passing of Prohibition, was to bo made up by, direct or' indirect taxation; However,' 110 did not wish to meet trouble half-way, because he was satisfie'd that if Prohibition wero carried, and time were given, they would bo able to mako the necessary arrangements to carry on the countr yas well as now. . State Control. ■ Ho did not favour State' control. At .ono time, ho had been inclined to favour it, but tho moro ho looked into the Gothenburg system tho less lie liked it'. Mr. Isitt: Hear, hear." ■ " Mr. Massey: Everything comes to■him .who waits. I havo been living iii hope for a very long timo for tho approval of the' member for Chri'stchurch Nsrth, and now I havo it. . • • Mr.- AtmoroSomething wrong when you two agree. , Mr. Massey : Either that or we are absolutely right. He added that it would bo a sorry state of things for this Domiuion if: this or any other Government had control of the liquor traffic, especially at election time'. . , Austrian Wine.. Ho proposed to' ask tho; House to agreo to-an amendment to deal with the salo of Austrian wino, a vile concoction sold in tho gumficlds of tho north. It was degrading; demoralising, and maddening to many oi tho people who drank it, and bo was of opinion that the sale of it should bo stopped at once. Other Aspects. Ho would also like, to introduce into the Bill a clause to prevent, the tiedhouse evil. Ho did not know whether there would bo time to deal with this aspect of tho question, but ho would bo prepared to consider an amendment on this question in Committee A most difficult aspect of the question was the state of things in the King Country, In the early days -of New Zealand a proclamation- was issued making'tho King Country a prohibition district... At that time the.Native population Was very greatly in-excess of the European population'. Now tho position was reversed, and a largo proportion of tho European population were clamouring for tho right to vote on tho I licensing issue. It had been suggested to him by a deputation that municipal control should bo tried there, and that one license should be issued in l'c Ivuiti, Ohakunc, and Taumarunui.' Personally, although ho thought the state of "things!

in tho King Country deserved consideration, he did not bolievo that the wliolo question could bo settled satisfactorily by such a rough and ready method. Ho thought a consolidating measure was necessary, and he hoped.to be able to mtroduco such a measure in tho first session of tlio next Parliament. Ilo' thought also that it might be advisable to set up a Iloyal Commission to inquire into tho state of things in tho King Country. He did not propose to consider that question.in this Bill. In voting upon the Bill, Ministers, liko other members, would • keep their pledges to their constituents, and lie hoped! all members would' keep ' their pledges.' He hoped tho Bill would mako for. tho sobriety, tho temperance, and the • well-being of the peoplo of this country. Method of Introduction. SIR JOSEPH WARD (Awarua) said that tho Bill was a very important one, and ho proposed to express his views on the matter. Ho /had asked, tho Prime Minister whether tlio majority of tho Ministers wero decided on the 801. He wanted to know if the Government was sincere in its' proposals. Ho had attended two deputations that' waited on tho Prime Minister, but ho was sure, when the deputations left, that tlioy wero just as wiso, as far as tho Government's intention's wero concerned, as they wero beforo they went. Tlio statement was' made tiiat five or' six of tho Ministers "wore against the Bill. If that was so Parliament should know ip. * Tho I'rimo. Minister: You havo to koop your pledges. . ' Sir Joseph Ward: I always keep to my pledges. Continuing ho said that when ho. brought a Licensing Bill before Parliament it oanio as a party measure. He said then that tho Bill was a Government measure, brought down for a good and sufficient reason, because they did not • expect to get an agreement botween tlio License and No-Li-cense Party outside the House. -Every momber was now entitled to know whether the present Bill was: a Government Bill. The Prime Minister could not divest himself of his responsibility. Establishing Dangerous Position. If tho" hew system was to continue it fl'as establishing * a. very dangerous position on important nunters. Another Minister brought down an important measure, as. a non-party, proposal." Was that rule to continue? Could Ministers bring down vital matters, irrespective of tho feelings of their colleagues? llio present BUI was one ji'hieh had a bearing on everyono, and indirectly affected millions of pounds worth of property. Once a policy proposal was boforo a Government-^— The Primo Minister: This is not a policy matter. Sir Joseph Ward said it affected tho: peoplo from .end to end of. Now Zealand, aud yet tlio Primo Minister said it was not a policy measuro. Tho Licensing Bill brought down by the Ward Government was a Government Bill, and tlioy were pledged to carry it through. ; TliO'Primo Minister: And you did not carry it- through. ; I - Sir Joseph' Ward: It is on the statutes. Tho Prime Minister: Not tho Bill you brought down.Continuing, Sir Joseph Ward said that sjich a system as introduced by the Prime Minister was a inenaco to tho country if it was allowed to go ou. Tho way the Bill was-introduced was utterly.' wrong. If Cabinet could not agree to such - a matter they ' had' a right to' resign. Authority could bo given to a Minister to voto against-'any lUeasuro. ' .' ■ . -. . Tlio Prime Minister: How aro you goiilg* "tfi'-'voto'F ''(IKiughter.) Sir Joseph Ward: Tho-Primo Minister need uot worry about how I am going to-, vote.. I am. dealing with this •niatter..as I intend, to deal, with it. He',: wanted to know what attitude the Prime Minister-took up. Ho had given < . his pledge for a -three-fifths majority., ; and had stood strongly for it. - When had ho declared.>tliat;_ho ; had reversed? ' Tho'Prime Minister: That's a matter for my constituents' and-myself. -. . Sir Joseph Ward said that tho Brinio Minister had changed his opinions, and after he got .the opportunity to. select a Cabinet 'had surrendered himself' with those favouring tho three-fifths majority. If tliero was-sincerity, behind tho Prime Minister it was necessary that tliero should bo an understanding of the party before tho measure could go through. As regarded himself ho had novor, given a written pledgo on tho matter. It was tho only way of not being drawn into a false position, as probably tho Primo Minister ' was in V IOW.. , , ■ / The Prime Minister: I havo not. Speak for yourself. , ' •Sir Joseph Ward, said that ho had always declined to givo a written pledge on tho matter, and had said that he would givo a pledgo on tho public platform. He was going to give effect to tho pledge ho gave, and support the second reading. - Ho did not think they had heard tho. last of tho licensing ques--tion; Ho had never been in favour of extremists' Oil either side. He had always been a moderate, and intended-to remain so in'connection with the licensing laws Ho did not pledge himself to State control. If National Prohibition was carried tliero would-.be a widespread feeling to havo some Stato control. ' As far as the King Country was concerned ho objected to tho sotting up of a Royal Commission. to inquire into tho conditions tliore. Wliy should not the Government : accept. tho responsibility of "lealing .with tlio question?. Mr. Fraser an Opponent. Tho Hon. W. FRASER (Minister of Public Works) said that tlio hon. member knew perfectly well that ho and others had brought down measures which were not party measures. There was tlio Gaming Act. Sir Joseph Ward: Tho majority ot Cabinet decided on that in the first place. Miv Fraser: What do you know what tho. Cabinet decided in this matter? Proceeding, lio said ho would let" the hon. member know what ho was going to do. Ho was going to opposo tlio clause for a, reduction. Ho had not gone about, asking other 'members of tho Cabinet what. they wero going to do.,' There never had been any doubt about what ho was going to do. Ho said there should be a substantial majority on the matter. Tho question about Prohibition was on a dilferent piano. Ho did not stand as the; advocate .of the brewer, .but he stood as tlio advocate of liberty. Tlious. nnds of people who wore moderates resented. their liberty being interfered with. If tlioy introduced a system of prohibition a worse evil-would arise. Mr..lsitt: What is it?.' Mr. Fraser:(What is it! I'will tell you.. You would have hundreds'of private stills. Apart from tho revenue loss'they would have to spend a great sum to . prevent the ■ importation of liquor, would havo to create an army to locate stills, . and would create a system of informers. He was not goinir to support any. proposal which woul3 bring about such a degrading state of affairs.. Mr. T. M. WILF6RD (Hutt) said that ho did not believe either in the present Bill or. the legislation on the (statutes. He did not believe in patchwork. Local No-Licenso had been proved a failure. He was prepared to voto for a .53. per cent, majority, oil National Prohibition if . local No-Li'eonse was done itwny with; As there was no chance of the Primo Minisior accepting that.proposal, ho would oppose fbe proposed reduction. Dr. A. K. NEWJIAN (Wellington East) said that lie would support tho Bill- They were 'anxious tho Bill should ro through, and they would support it by silence. Lot those opposed to it do tho talking. Mr. Herdman's Stand, The Hon. A; L. HliilDAlAN (Attar-,

ney-General) said that ho did not think they should remain silent on such a measure. Ho was opposed to tho provi- | sions of tho Bill. Ever sinco he had been in politics ho had been a sixty per cent, membor. Ho had held that a substantial majority should vote before a chango took place. Ho was not satisfied that oven a CO per cent, or a Go per cont. voto would sottlo the question. After twenty years' reference to the people they could, not say tho conditions governing tho -sale of liquor had advanced. Ho had figures prepared relating to tho sale and manufacture of liquor since 1893, and also dealing with tho drunkenness. In' 1893 tho total hoenses granted wero -2709, and 1 m 1913 tlie licenses wero 1869, a fallingoff of 900 licenses. f lho liquor manufactured and imported into Now Zealand joer head of population, including Maoris, was in 1893, 8.070 gallons In 1913 it was 10.098 gallons. Excluding Maoris, it was 8.513 gallons in 1893 and 10.570 gallons, in 1913. That clearly proved that the quantity of liquor manufactured and imported had increased despite the legislation placed on tho Statute 'Book. Tho convictions for drunkenness in 1893 wero 5139, excluding Maoris, and in 1913 wero 11,901. Tlio convictions for drunkenness, per thousand of mean population, wore, in 1893, 7.31. In 1913 they wero 10.64. Mr. Isitt: What about tho No-Licenso areas? Mr. Herdman: -I am speaking of the convictions right through New Zealand, and this exists despite tho '.licensing legislation issued in New 'Zealand. Mr. Isitt:. What has happened in NoLicenso districts? Sly, Slinking Drinking. . Mr. Herdman: -What has happened in No-Licenso districts? Sly, slinking drinking was going- on in those district's. ■ Men were sneaking into back rooms andi takiifg 'with them large quantities of lijjuor, which they never left alono till it was all consumed. Ho thought it was possible for Parliament to devise a law which would, meet! with the support of a substantial portion of tho population, and' oil different lines ■ to tlioso existing to-day: '. ' ( ■ He did not favour State control becans© lie thought tho State control was such an enormous problem that no-Gov-ernment would be able to carry it out It would mean the purchase of hotels, browories, etc.,-and a huge amount of capital would have to-bo expended. Neither did ho believe in municipal control. 110 believed if. they had that it would lead to interference in local elections.. ; ' - . , ■ ■ • Ho did bolievo there was a way to establish a' kind of control Over tlie consumption, and manufacture, of liquor which was different from municipal control, as ho .understood, it. Ho believed Parliament would some-' day have to appoint authority to control tho licensing of houses in this country, and tlio of tho liquor trado itself. ■ Anil ho believed it could be dono. ; Tliero was no reason wliy legislation''-should not bo passed which Would directly regulate tho : :consumption and manufacture of liquor- in tlio community. Ho was. satisfied that- the discreditable' way some public-houses wero conducted was largely duo to tho legislation tlioy had at present. Pledged to 60 Per Cent. . Mr. Myers:. Why.do you not bring in a Bill.on the lines yoil.suggest? ■Mr. Herdman:■ I iiiii not going to do iv. 1 am pledged, on tho last election to support .UO' pen cent. What had happened; in connection with, tho salo of liquorvin recent years? The number ol licenses.;- had '/■ been '.slightly, reduced. Tho. ; liceiisee -didhot know whether-,-hojwould havo i ,..a.-j three-year, term or. hot, .... The result., was tihat lie was compelled to sell as,-imioli liquor as> possible during a limited tinio. Ho did not earo'ti-Jig about, prov-iaing ,accommodation tor tho'. peoplo;.travelli'ng backwards alld' .forwards';"- The consequenco was' that good'accommodation coiild. hot bo got ; in .-tho 'country;, and hotels wero iiot''ne}i.rly ; is-good as they would bo under dilferent conditions of Jho law. Now;-, if- tliey liad', three business men' appointed 'to - look into tho, control of tho' traffic-it would. b$ their duty to see. that the conditions wero good. K would; be' tho duty of Parliament to introduce legislation to make it impossible to have tied houses. He would liavo evciy lease granted to a -licensci 'inspected by some competent person, - appointed , by tho Crown, and would make 'certain that.no' clause was in tho lease that had any relation'to tied-houso clause. " ... / : Mr' J. V..Brown: Would you do the samo with the wool'merchants ? Mr. Herdman: The condition of the trotol mercliant is - entirely . different. Ho was. satisfied' that tho publican had not been fairly treated 'in' tho past by the brewers. The hon. member who had interjected probably know it. (Laughter.) Mr.' Herdtoan hoped a timo would come wlien the licensing question .would bo entirely removed from tho political arena. He did not. consider it was as important as a number of other questions tlioy had to consider, such is..-t-lio Settlement of. theland. Tho sooner the question ' was removed • from politics- the • bettor it would be. The Causes of Poverty. Mi'. A. 11. ATMORE (Nelson) agreed with all that Mi-.' Herdman had said to the effect that the strength of tho law' was not the strength of the policemen or tho Magistrate, but tho strength of public opinion behind it. For this and other reasons lie. objected to tho bare majority jiroposal. Prohibition had not yet been; supported by a majority,, but by a minority/of tho people of New Zealand' at the polls. It was a fact ■that only some 80 per cent, of the people voted arid'true that lie did not know how the 20 per cent, who did notvote would have voted, but in tlio meantime it was- necessary to ensure that a substantial majority should bo required to carry- Prohibition. Side by side' with tho increase in tho Prohibition vote, tliero had been an inorease in the'consumption of alcoholic liquors.. Ho did not think the' bare majority was possible, unless tlio natural corollar.v of compulsory voting' wero. also insisted upon. Ho was opposed to drunkonness, but he-believed much of the cxcessivo drinking was an-.effect of tlio cause— poverty. 'Ilo' believed that from tho linuor trade tliero should be eliminated all private profit;;tliero should bono incentive to • no, incentive to sell after '•hours!-- Ho, contended that the Prohibition law' could not io en-' fenced in any country where it was now the law, and. would nover bo enforced here. If the Prime Minister thought liquor ought not'to:be ! sold, why did lie not declaro against it straight out. He accused tho Primo'Minister of' having broken his pledge to vote for tho 60 per cent, majority on the liquor issue. If the Prime .Minister thought tlio liquor question was a moral question, he should take tlio whole responsibility for tho Bill, and mako it a party question. He believed thetinie would como when it would lie discovered—perhaps it would bo after No-Licenso was carried —that tho defect in tho present system was the private profit clement. He intended to vote for tho retention of the GO per cent., majority. ■ . ' Defending tho Brewers. ■ Mr. J.' V. UK OWN (Napier) put tho case for the tiod-house system, and lie] said there were two sides to the question. Generally,'the-house was .owned by the man w'lio "tied .it, and lie niado himself responsible for the quality -of the liquor sold in it. The lessee'of a house that was not tied bought the cheapest liquor he could buy, without regard to 'the quality of it, l.is only object being to mako money. . Ho ofl'eiv cd to support a : clause providing that no liquor should go into a No-License district, and commented' upon the fact that Mr. Isitt niodo no response to his otter. He apposed tlio Bill and would,

do all that ho. could to secure the retention of tlio present three-fifths majority. Reverting to tho tied-houso question he declared that any farmer was tied to his .wool merc'hant "far worse than any'publican was tied to his brewer. This was laughingly denied by a. number of members on tho Government stdo of tho House, some of whom described tho allegation- as rubbish. A Word for the 'Maoris. ~T lu? , Ho"-, A T. NGATA (Eastern Maori) asked whether tho Prime Minister would cast upon t'ho State tho ccsv of any liquor poll taken of.tho elector.s of any Maori Council district. Ho further asked that the law should bo amended to provide that where NoJjicense had been carried in a Maori Council district, the Natives should given an opportunity of-periodically reaffirming, or reversing their decision. Air. Ngata stated that ho intended to support the Bill before tho House. crß could bo no question as to tho amount of damage that liquor had dono' to tho people of his race. , Unfortunately the way had again been opened to the sale of - individual interests' in' jSative land and in the past'this had been accompanied by excessive- drinkig. liio Maoris had not become seasoiled and hardened drinkors liko tho paKchas. Ho would ■ support tho Bill as an instalment of reform, and honed eventually-to seo National Prohibition carried. From his youth up ho had always opposed tho supplying of liquor to tlio members of liis race, -and if the .nay, should ever come when a majority O ins constituents asked'him to change * attitude on- tho liquor question ho ineiit prepared to loavo Parlia-' trin'VS E (Auckland Central spoke of tho financial and industrial complications which would .ariso it National Prohibition wero carried C. WEBB (Grey) said tIW i tfl ' s ■ question wero removed from' , a l tm ? s l )lle ro i of Politics ■ the peoplewould afc once demand .the adoption of the baro majority. Mr. Webb stated' jprity WaS pledgetl to tlle 1)aro ma-- ' P , A ? 7NB Lynn) said'ho )i as pledged to support the bare majority on licensing issue. He favoured' btate control of the liquor traffic ■'but ho characterised tho. action of the Government in introducing t'ho Bill as a political trick of tho Tory Party, and lie did not consider liirrisolf pledged to support it. • • MR. MASSEY IN REPLY. • - THE HILL OF 1910. The Eight.Hon.:W- F. MASSEY. in reply, said that t-lio Leader of the Opposition■ had attempted- to make political capital out' of- tlio statement that tiio Bill introduced in ; 1910 'had the unanimous support of all tlie honourable gentleman's colleagues'. ; Liit tho lion-' ourable gentleman did not toll tho whole story. It was well known that that Bill was the result of a compact between the two oxtremo paries, and the wliolo ar-. rangomoub was put ou record by Sir Joseph-, Ward. The Bill'provided for a oo per cent, majority., oil both issues, but after tho second .reading something happened, and Sir Joseph , Ward moved to revert,to tho three-lilths majority in Committee. ..Sir J. .'Ward: And you, voted with me? ■ ■ ■, Mr.- Massey: Yes. ' Is there anything wrong., .with, that ? ,I, have seen,, fit to chaiigo my; opinion to i certain extent.. Mr. Brown:. You will chango it a bit more later on. : , ,' .: Mr. ■ Massey: The honourable gentleman; will not bo here, to see it.. The Leader Of 'the' Opposition -had .introduced a Bill favouring tlfo 55 per cent., had gone back to 6U per cent., and now had como back again ,to .55 per cont. '4'ho honourable gentleman ought,'to be tne last to accuse anyone of inconsistency. • -I, ■ Sir J. Ward: That; to which you refer was dono at the request of tho Temper-, ance Party to savo the Bill., ' Mr. Massey: Does tho honourable gentleman say that 'tho l Bill of 1910 was over in danger ? -Sir J. Ward: l r es. , Mr. Isitt: And we know , that is correot. ' , . Mr.'Massey: AH I can ,say is that I was a meiiiber of the House and a leading member of the House .at that time, and I did rfOt know of' it. Mr. Isitt: You didn't know everything. Mri, Massey: And tho .honourable gentleman'doesn't know everything tonight. I say it is impossible for an important Bill boforo tlio House to be in danger Without a leading member of the House boing aware of it. "Then- tho right lion, gentleman found fault w'itn. me for introducing this Bill because a number of 'my colleagues 'aro hot supporting it. Did, his colleagues . always support Bills ho'introduced? „Th 6 lion. gentleman ' can't ' answer that question in tho affirmative..' Mr..Witty: Ho said a majority. Sir J. Ward: A majority in' Cabinet agreed to.it. .. - _ Mr. Massey: That is -only a 'quibblo.', It does not matter two penco whether' a majority agreed to it or -not. I can remember tho Gaming Amendment, Bill of 1910 perfectly well, and the-factthat of the leading mombers' of his Cabinet voted against it over and.over again. Sir J., Ward: Two of thorn. Art Imperial Precedent. * Mr. Massey asked if tlio right hon. gentleman remembered what happened m tho Imperial Parliament last year on tho Women's Franchiso Bill when an ,amendment was moved by Sir Edward Groy. , ' ■ Sir J. Ward: Perfectly well. Mr. Massey: ■ There is tlie precedent. Sir Edward Grey, ho said, moved an amendment which several of his colleagues supported, whilo others, Mr. Asquith among thpni, very strongly opposed it. , . Sir J. Ward: That was not a Government Bill at'all. Mr. Massey: It was a Government amendment inserted in another Bill.. His recollection was that- it was ruled out of order, but that did not affect the fact that tlio Imperial Government was divided upon it. Ho continued that hp had no objection to stating what happened in Cabinet. A request camo last year from a very largo.'-proportion of the mombers of thollo'uso that the Government should givo them an . opportunity of voting-on tho licensing question. The tiling was.:discusscd : in Cabinet last year, and' it'was decided that, a I trough Ministers were not of. , one opinion on tli6 Licensing question, they would bo doing tho iight' thing, to givo members tlio opportunity they, asked, for. -Tho Bill had been introduced accordingly, and was in his chargo by decision of Cabinet. 7: . In answer to Mr. Ngata tlio Primo Minister said that-lie tfioughfc tlio cost of..liquor polls in;Maori;Council dis;tricts—when the polls wore held simultaneously with tho elections—should bo charged to consolidated rovenue. Ho agreed with another member that inspection of liquor was as necessary as tlio inspection of food.and drills. (Hear, hear) Finally Mr. Massey remarked that he had explained the reasons,for the introduction of the Bill, fl'ho" Bill was now before the House, and ho hoped that e\ery member would vote upon it hi .accordance with his conscience, his con- \ ictions and his pledges to his constituents. ■ ■ SECOND READINC CARRIED. The Bill was read a'second time liv 38 votes to 3G. ' >'■ Following was the division list:—' Ayes (38): Anderson, Bell, Buxton, Colvin, Craigio, Davey, Ell, Eseott, Fisher, Guthrie, Uanan. Harris, lliiulmarsh, Hine, Isitt, Leo M'Combs, Malcnliii, Marnier, Massey, A. K, Newman, . Ngata, ■ Nosworthy, Okey, Pearce,

Poland, R. H. Rhodes, T. W. Rhodes, Robertson, Seddon, Sykes, G. M. Thomson, Vcitch, Ward, Webb, Wilkinson, Wilson, Young. Noes (36): Allen, Atmore, J. Bollard, R. P. Bollard, Bradney, Brown, Buchanan, Bu'ick, Campbell, Carroll, Coates, Dickie, Dickson, Fraser, Glover, Herdman, Homes,' Hunter, M'Callum, Macdonald, M'Kci/iio, Millar, Myers,Payne, Pomare, Rangihiroa, Reed, Russell, Scott, Sidey, J?. H, Smith, 11. W. Smith, Statham, J. C. Thomson, Wilford, Witty. \ ■ Pairs: Ayes—Buddo, Clark. 1 Noes—Forbes, Parata. The only member of tlie Houso not accounted for in the division is Mr. E. Newman, who is duo to arrive at Auckland from Canada on July 28. Tho House rose at 11.24 p.m._