THE COUNCIL

Dominion, Volume 7, Issue 2208, 22 July 1914, Page 4

THE COUNCIL

- -t.-. v J -I,'.'. '- 1 *Tho."Leiiislativo-:Council , met'-ttt"2.3o P m 1 v \ ( 11 ■Select . Committees'-'for-itho : ;..6essiou.., were') sot up * „ , ;Tho Honr s H'.r,'D.' BELL -moved tlm:. > eetiond roadmg-of >tho Legislative Goun- 1 •• ciUßilli--?.Ho.'liad.:moro^angumo.hopes, - considof '-ivhy, " •; •; ■ ■ tsltStfl";the .vTlie last. movo. of tho-iAtlcmSoni-.Governmenti'wos.-.to-.bnilg . ,:hadi -v .- b"^;ioi^n^l3iiV.th%'',p^tyJ.s'.' ; opiniph' '.; 'w;hilp"'thoy- t f ore.' ;,:" Thoy; .. other 1 -wty.' <"&:■ - changotintthe: constitution •of-.tho Goun-cil'.was-,sa(lvocated;ifromttlio.'..vei'Y';start o£.4ho,ConsUtutiolii u.onlv-:.one change, . t}iijt ; Seven 1 , motabors relflftinedj' who;-had- been'ap' change -of- ■ . iSOI-vviTho/changa.' fOi tho :: si3ven-.-.vcars npfouitmentihadi beeiv yefv'i Erom that fonrord theio hid never.'been-a- changennitho-. demand =for »• wjfiitedv,to.,-?mpres9:,upofi (tho Cdunfiil ; that tho fuijctions- of j-a Senate, wero larger, th&n tho; Council; under its jire-: ,settt\Oanstitution;''.'Wsksv<al>k'!t6'>MpdßeV: : Tho Senate should bo a real force and ■ power in tho State". It should havo not - merely the rights but the .duty, of in- ' ; toiposing when it-considered.that legis- 1 not in ,tho inte'r- ■ csts' flf tjio pooplt>. That power couldi!°t °be. exercised. under .'the> -nominative system, for tho party in power could ' pass-legislation ovW tho heads of ob- ■ - jeCtors. the .Council was olective.it could exorcise a power, as well as try ' .. . ' its duty';;arid, could perform ..' lioelj the-function; of a Second Chini- . . hO r , without any'.'submission. Gradu- 1 ally from liomiHtitivo Councils all'-povfor ; . , -was passing—Hhat froih tho House of 1 ; .'Lords had "practically, passed.. When the ■ system was elective ifno Council took up - all powers: of-.criticism aild ex'amiiia- ' tion, apart from consideration of i- fi- 1 nanco, and determining which political ' : . paj-ty' should; n ; ; ; - j ton. W. Beehan interjected tliat- tlio power was not' held by tho ' Council .1 A SenatO'With. Power. [Tho Hon. H-.. Di" Bell-replied that Tio ahd no argument left to answer a mem- .... her, whq,.,having satin-the-Council "so long, was-still of that mind. 110 waiited to see a Senate with power to in-t«-poso and at least delay legislation, ■ wen it was- considored-necessary" Ho ..: wanted a";body with the authority of the people, coming from tlio people, and rble to jsay ( IJold youi hand till thero is an election" Tho countrj nould tlien havo a : real opportunity of iiid"ing nhat nns before them They wefo told thatvit; ;was 'merely" because" Mr!' Massey had it on his programme at tho v -e, it? on ' ■'t-W ;■ • "ioasiire through. That was' ' - ca ? e i' liley u urgeutl y believed :' -;„Last Year\s v 8i1i.4 . - : Continuing', ..'Mr. a Bell tlio Bill " ■ .except m one detail,'was the- same as y ■ W 1 ! oro tho Council last year. '' "-' s the same as the Bill ■' J-hc differenco was to post- , ponb% operation of the Bill till after • pealing with tho treat- ' ment~iaccorded. Jhe Bill last .year, he v • : ®^7^i ; WaclicaUy.; : tlip;?iyjipl6V Council- ' . ■ w . a ?. some, chjingo wag neces- : sary. ine diftorenco arOso . upoii < tho •' 5? - iAt- no-- timo -had ; oftiiom--1 ffl V D V''"^ a - y - f w^Gu: -"-tho''Council - ..aifirined the principle of,„an: elective further-cOh- , . , HouyctpassMl i vartous rtsolutionsj,' to 'tliO effect'that it ' *««:^^M a L'that. ; *|^ l ?.;should'.bo: an.. alteration m the Consiitution of the ; -i"' 113 . a sreed, ,by 39 votes to ' li'W.® I ' s b*'alt<iratibn,i-should!:bß/from' ■ ~ '"• t teptoS',^qJho^-,bt--Spi»omtnient' 1 io: .: - - e f?'!9 n by .direct rate, at the polls, by . electors qualified to vote, foivmembers of. ■ tho.. ; Lower House, .- carried by tho; Housfev.was ..;tliat 'Buoh: ;* election should bo \ipou the i)roportional ', ahfL-therefore by > Wto^te'U-'lt-c6nld- noKho.'fsaid;'-there-'' the Bill had not received the. -consent of-. : the representatives--.- of'- tlie : I'fJ',? - ''•rln.-.-the' last'.year,j tho iruiiJjers struck, by. .a-niajority. of one, tho proposal .of pi-oportional i-o----presentati- 'That was what the Gov ' " crnnientiintended-'to; put-throusli thjs session. ..... - r i::.; Election ,by the People. '' . was "almost impossible to consider .-• aiiyvjOther system or'elecfibii than by .people..,lc.was-by, common consent . that the number of members- ■ ' fcnowct-.W-ihalfv«{>..tl»t. of tho Lower', Kouet Theroforc the, electorates ha'l : ; W duf-1 a rgei'.' *' .TliCy. did-not -want party•■'uiiJlie Council—that should not be.iutriwuccd j-? it Was - essential that there should bo, men, not .having any ■ local prejiulices to support them, but ineni who'had the conhdonce, by" their past actions,-or'by their habit of life, of t-lieiri'fcllow citizens 'generally ;■ men who . had Alio confidence not inly of 'tlio lo'calitJtrJ?ut of a-lai^e-'pari'of : itbis-.D(»nih-' ioii,-:who wero public nit-n in the- senso - orj.lieing known iuoji. and who-had that right and influence which cauio. from lohjj- dealing in public, affairs.-;.'-' They ■ wanted men who had experience •in minor or major public affairs, and",who werb known to both islands ofyiNow Zealand; not men merely known within• tho. range .of. tho parish pump. The,so were: tho"member's for tho ideal Senate, Largo electorates were necessary for proportional representation. Tho Coiih-c-il .was to consist of '10.members. It was proposed to divide each island into .. two electorates. It had been suggested, t-liat tlio: islands s li o ukl be divided into four. There were disadvantages in that, lor,' taking the iWth Island, thero would then bo two urban and two couutsxelcetorates. That was not desirable, ior partv would bo created.. . The Hon. Mr. .Sheehan: They , would be costly to contest;' ' Mi 1 . Belli-That is not- so. In a system of proportional representation tho larger you make tho electorate the. less is", tho-: r expense. ~ : Where;;yoir "cari:^get ro'und.money ivill.tell;'Wheroi-ou : cannot got round mbnoy will'noi.-tell. ; . ' Eyery Party Represenleti. ' In tlio'proposed system, party , would bo represented. ' Thero'would bo no difficulty, about tlio voting, for tho divisions Would bo determined I '' by' tlio general electorates. Hoisuggestod that tho sch'erlulo should go to a fielect Com-mitteav-to-take exgert evidenca on the

technical ipart-of-tho Bill. It had been ®id^tta't<-154bour'tfrmld' .vote solid for ■party,;;ana"th'erefore would-have tho ad; .vantage. . That was t Jiot so.; In no .pioportional represent 'ta.tioiv existed was \hero any, idea °f ' dosorting it;'- '. . " . " Tho Hon B H.URRIS asked, had, tho '"system .tried- ou . road • hoards, in. .th.Dominion? : '/ - n , Mri-BELL said that ho did ■ that ,thoy should first make an topeHj Mnfcnt on- a.-road toard or-School hoard.'Ihey l wero - following tho experieiico of. countries tliiiV had tried the. system;'. • Bell said lip be- • lioved Jio was the last stage of 'his .advocacy of .the elective ■' system' for -~ He was >eui'er I 4bat'r 4ho^ ; ':wBo;--Had' supported '■ the .Govern-' .nient iwould look back with pleasure .iih, ■;ihe.jpirt'].'tbey.had.taken.- . , v•Different !Franchise Wanted. , The Hqn:,-!5. 1. GEORGE deprecated, ; the'fact- that the Bill was- the. same as lastiyearr There i was _iioamendmenir! but ; ,lho , old Bill -was to r.bi} vlforced, through'.;'- .The ;,bled,' and'-.thero' was" ho. '"uso ':arguing 'They wefe' g'oiiig to- have an elective :Chamber,;:and ;tho only thing.they..cquld! do ■ was to-see 1 that thoso- electe'd. were • the best 'men im. tho country.! iHo; •would ;not vote for a proposal to. hevo members elected to botli Houses on the same franchise. He would sooner.vote, for tho; abolition of tho Council " altogether. He woulcl like to seo a franchisa different:to that.of tho other House; a 'small freehold, small lease- , hold, or small ratchold franchise.' He did not hko proportional representation. It seemed, absurd to try to elect iiembers on the enormous electorates suggested. : It would strengthen the potver of tho: cities, as against the, couhtry. :It was going to.cause thff.biggest, "logrolling"1 that' had ever existed. - Mr. Bell: Did you over read tho mcasnre? ■ , 1 . Mr. George: Did I over read it! Havo not I been worrying niyself over it for three yeats. (Laughter.) The cost, ho contended, would bo more, and members would bo returned by 1 tho organisations m tho towns.' At any rate, to carry out tho" mandate of tho peo- ■ plo in the quickest timoj ho -suggested xhev should put a clause in the Bill, dissolving the Council in 1917,; and then : V.-.".*' '*'■ A member: Would you favour thatP Mr. George: I rotiro m 1917, and it makes no difference to. mo. (Laughter.) ■Mr. Bell: AVhy not make it 1915, then? '.. . Mr. Georgo: That would bo.even bet-' tor. . . , ■■ -■■■•• At "4.48 p.m. the debate was ?.d----loui'jied till 2.30 p.m. this afternoon.