SCENE IN THE HOUSE

Dominion, Volume 7, Issue 2193, 4 July 1914, Page 6

SCENE IN THE HOUSE

1 MR. PAYNE AGAIN GROSS INSINUATIONS THE SPEAKER FLOUTED. WITHDRAWAL OR SUSPENSION

A sensation.,,-, was.,..'raised. : in ■ t1i0.,,;:.11qn5e..!..,■..0f...; -Representatives, ehortly-beforo midnight;by the member for Grey'Lynn (Jlr.. J. -Payne) making uso of a certain-expression and refusing to withdraw ,' it when: required, to" do 60. Mr/,Robertson, speaking in the-No-Confidenco, I)ebato, made sonie remarks about"b'reaking : faitli,' '-■■ ■-'•-' "'•■■'■; ' /l'ha Prime Minister interjected: You ■ hi: theJast onoto'.complain ,of breaking faith. .-,;., .',' . Hon. members:. Yes, ho ought.to. Mr. Payne: He sits there by bribery and'corruption , . . ■ " '"' The, Primo Minister: I think that some notico should be taken,of that remark. He moved that the words bo taken down. . ■ '.'■■■ Mr. Robertson "said the reforence was n<>t to tho Primo Minister.' Mr. Payne-: I reiterate thatthe Government of the day sits on those benches by bribery and corruption,. and' I hope niy words will be: taken down.' They sit there by bribery and , corruption,.and they have-bribed-Liberals to go over to that side- by-promises of benefits -to come. I make that statement in bold, cold language. !■•:;:.: ■":: .:".."?. Mr. Russell .aßked what previously ,wero tho words taken , down.-, The words as originally read by Mr. Speaker wcro: "Tho-Government sits there by bribery and corruption," these being :the words taken down by tho Clerk. Objection" wns raised -in-several quarters that Mr. Payne had • said, "Ho Bits'there . . ..,".":,;:' ..,,,.'". Mr. Bell said ho heard'thowords very clearly. The lion,, member -had said distinctly "he sits,. thero ■'by': bribery and corruption'." ". ■;.".-*.■ .'. '..,'.. .i . :-, Mr. P.ayrie Reiterates. i Mr. Payne: I was-referring to the Government. I reiterate: that' tho :Govt erhmeht; sits ; .tlifir'o' by Wibety; an'd corruption.- ' ' ~.,:"■■-..'." /:.'...,■ '*• . • 'J'ho Speaker put' : tho.;- ( questibn..that the words , "He,' sits '.there' by bribery and corruption , ' -bo taken down. ' ' The "ayes" were in a largo majority, but a division: was'called. . When, howover, 4ho!division' bell, had been rung the, demand .for' a'division' .was , not re- , ' peated, the,"noes" having apparently . thought better of the.matter. .The motion was therefore ideclared carried. ' Mr. Massey: 1 suggest that, .the . honourable', member be' given ah : opnor--tunity to mako an explanation beforo te is , called upon to withdraw. Mr; Payne: I want .to make a.statement. I will not withdraw (interruption). . ,;....-.....,,.,, . Mr. Wilford (Hritt): I am'perfectly certain-that" Mr. .Payne has no idea of what he is entitled to do. Now I suggest, Mr. Speaker, that you ■ should explain to him what tho forms of the House are. Ho doesn't realise that he has to withdraw from,tho Chamber. Give tho man a fair chance. Mr. Speaker: The honourable member is entitled to make an explanation, and ho must theu withdraw from the Chamber. Mr. Payne: My remarks were distinctly these —"He (meaning the Government) sits thereby bribery and corruption." I reiterate tho words. 'Mr.'Speaker: The honourable member will now! withdraw from :the..Chamber. Mr. Payne (risingjto-leave the. Chamber): That's - all-Hriglit". I am" quite pleased to do 'so.'.-ram- tirqd'of the whole dirty'business. .(Cries, of Order! Order!) .. i ' ' . Mr. Payne then- loft the; Chamber. v....:; Motion: of .Suspension.,;; ~ TheTrime Mims'ter'sa'kV'that lie".was ' sorry tliat'lie was personally'concerned in the matter,,but, his .'duty as Leader of the. House was clear-4-to assist the Speaker-in 'maintaining order, and the. dignity "of tho Hoiise. If .'such conduct' as that.of the''Offending, member'was. allowed to pass without-notice Parliament would be degraded. Tho member had "not even attempted-'to apologise.' Ho did,.not, .wish tp ,bo'severe^ fjr, to do more than was.; absolutely necessary. Ho -moved that '.-tho'- .member '' lor. Grey Lynn be 1. suspended for the .remainder of. the .present .sifting. .'; Mr, russgll Pflllea Up. "":; Mr: 6':' AV: , . Russell- (Avon) said W thought the motion of tho Prime Minister whs of a- somewhat hurried character. Ho regretted that tho Prjme Minister had-not allowed a little- time to elapse, before he proposed to inflict ' a very grave punishment on tho mem-, tier for tSe-y Lynn. What were tho woHls-cniiipliiiue(i : of?'' The honourable . member, in an interjection, not :in tho ' course of :a said "Ho sits (meaning that lie -sits "as* liead" of tho Government) on those benches by ibribcry and corruption." He (Mr. Russell) contended tlfftt, tjie,.cltiirge'-.:the, honourable inember »;ot a personal ono affecting-the personal character of tfiß ,ber of the'.Govern'inentr If was a charge of a political character, arising out of what the, honourable member for Grey ■Lynn rightly/ or: wrongly regarded -as tho means by which the present Government ! attained to office. "I: d6n't know how far I would be justified," he said, "and I ..would like your direction how far I .woV.ld bo justified, in saying" that tho .Government-have, during the timo they havo been in office, acted in a manner whiclr would, appear to lend colour to the charge that' has been , inade." Mr. Speaker: I don't think that is a proper remark to make. It, is almost repeating what the member , for • Grey ' Lynn has said. .:..'. .... 'V ' "Mr. Russell said'that were he-to use tho words complained of in the ordinary cr.urso of .debate,''he- ventured'to eup;gest that:' Mr. Speaker would not bo prepared to direct that, they ho taken down. Such charges were made in almost every Parliament and in every sea-. - sion, Jiot,necessarily in ,identically, tho Bonip words.:, . , .'..'■ ' Mr.; iSpeaker said 'that the honourable jifember would see ...that there,wasi. a. great difference, between attributing bribery and corruption to an individual inember, and imputing :it>to a'CJovern-iD-jiit. Tliis had been ruled upon time and again. ■• ;' ".' v '. '. : .' : Mr. Russell wired the Prime Minister to withdraw lu3 motion, to temper his strength Iwitli mercy," "and"'to refrain from placing :a stigma apdtt ft'metnber of the Hpii9e; .;,.,;:;..;... ;.,.•-,.] ■_..,[. A Precedent of :1910. Mr. T. M. Wflford suggested that the course followed in 1900-over-n remark mado by the. then member for Palmer.fiton North (Mr. ;Piran.i).,should. jjp.f.Ql-. lowed in this case. Ho first withdrew from the Chamber, after having refused to withdraw the words complained of. On tho motion of tho!; late. Mr. If. J., Seddon ho was given , ' another opportunity to withdraw tho words. .Mr. l'irani refused to do so,. and wns then suspended ■ for the remainder'"'oT tho session. ' ".::.,' ' ■ ' .Mr. H. G. j≤ll thought thai thero was « difference of opinion- vis to what tho member for Grey Lynn did say. He

suggested the Hansard Tcport of his explanation should bo produced to clear up any doubt. •' • Mr. G:'Witty thought that the meaning, -and writ tho words, should bo taken into.consideration. The memuer had withdrnwn'from the Chamber, and suroly that fihrftild bo enough. Tho member had explained that ,ho . did. not mean anything personal. Mr.'Massey: Ho has. not even withdrawn it. Mr. "Witty: Any one of us. may make a mistakO'in the lieat of tho moment. Mr.' T.'H. Davey suggested that Mr. Payne should havo'the same opportunity ns given to tho member for I'almorston North in 1900. < -' . A Chance to Withdraw. ■ Mr. Mnssey: "I am quito willing to follow the precedent of 1900, whero Mr. Pirani was concerned." Ho had not tho slightest wish to bo vindictive, but ho had a duty to do as Leader of tho House. Ho would have seen his way more clearly had tho words been made in reference to any other member. .The original motion that tho member for Grey Lynn should.bo suspended was ■withdrawn for the time, and the Primo Minister moved that Mr. Payne should be given an opportunity to withdrawn the words. . » The Hon. It. M'Jvcnzie said that if ho was tho member for Grey Lynn ho would go to his constituents to-morrow. Ho would : not withdraw tho 'words. .Every man had tbo right to express his opinions. Mr. J. M'Combs said that assuming tho words taken down were correct, they l might bear tho interpretation ttiat the member for Grey Lynn put on them, that tho Prime Minister sat "there" on tho Government side, and not "here," on tho Opposition side, as the result of bribery and corruption. Tho member for Groy Lynn did not say the Primo Minister sat in Parliament by bribery and corruption. Mr. Robertson said ho thought that the remark was not brought out in any personal way. Ho held that the remark by the Primo Minister to him (Mr. Robertson) was a personal reference His words exactly meant, what he was accusing tho member for Grey Lynn of having said. Those words wero used entirely in a political sense. Ho suggested that no further action should bo taken in the matter. Ho did so because tho Prime Minister was a sinner too, in that his interjection had provoked the words. . '

'.■Mr.-P. C. Webb protested against the member for Grey Lynn being asked to como" and Withdraw hia words. Tim Prime Minister illiquid bo on his trial arid not Mr. Paynef ' ■ ■ Members: Order I : Mr. Webb:'l would rather see the member for Grey Lynn stick '• to ■■'■ his guns ''than;adopt, the. suggestion:'of tho Minister.- 'y ■ : • '' ' Mr. , H.\ Atmore; waried to refer i to what the-' Prime ' Minister .had said against another, member. • Tho Speaker would not allow this. Mr.'.Atmore: I will say that the Primo Minister drew tho words out. It is well known the- antipathy—:— ' The Speaker: That is not sticking to tho motion. ''■ . ■ .. ' Mr. r Atmore was standing while the Speaker was ruling, and repeated cries ■.pi'! "Sit-down," "Sit down,", were directed to';" him. ■ "~ "Shut up/' interjected Mr. Poland. ,; No, Appearance. Mr', £ayno was then sent for,.but the Sergeant-at-Arms- returned without him. Mr. Speaker reported to the House that scarcjjuhad been maelo for the member ,for.".6rey Lynn, but lie could not be found. ■•• (Laughter.) Tho Bigkfc Hon. W. F. Massey: I am inclined;to3think this ie.not a.laughing matter. 'Fregfet the manlier in''which this statement has been received by certain of Parliament, and I am sorryydn attempt has been mado to degrade tile New Zealand Parliament. Mombers'owght to know better. A difficulty' has "arisen, and : there is only one way out,. it—that is to ask you, -Mr. Speakorj-tjj; allow this matter ,to stand over until- next sitting day. I have done no more tlj'ftn what I conceived to be my duty. So far as I can see, I could not do hon. gentleman does not ceo fit to come-along next, sitting day and withdraw,' then it will bo necessary for mo to go back to the motion which I intended orginall- , - to move. Mr.°SpeaW'and tho House agreed to take this.courso, and the.inbiclont ended 'for the time hoing.