LICENSING POLLS.

Dominion, Volume 7, Issue 2192, 3 July 1914, Page 8

LICENSING POLLS.

:i ' ;; JBIG /deputation: , ; ~ ' J Jm'j^SE^OK ; THE':TRAI)E. ' ■"''•'.:-;;; prim? minister: replies. i; : vI PAIR PLAY TO'EVERYBODY; ■, representing, the Now Zealand Alliance waited upon the Prime Minister at Parlia'ment. Buildings and demanded a reduction in the- effective majority at licensing polls. Yesterday an equally riunier- '..... ! o ous deputation delivered a/counterblast on behalf of the licensed --trade, vaiid ' demanded that. the present threo-fifthe , _;■ majority should bo retained.. Like tlio v '-. deputation of Inst week, that bf.lyesi I , -toraay.' was -received in':thc':vestib\tle of the old 'Parliamentary 'Buildings whirih ; was crammed '/to its -utmost>capaeity, rcanyi members.-.of Parliament being ■,'■ scattered through tho crowd or grouped , about :tho 'Prime Minister's table. , ' Mr. f.. ,Massey* ivae loudly cheered■ and applaud- ■■' ed ivhen ho' ! 'cntere'dj by the Hftn'. A. 'L "Herdman "tiiid other mera- • i .Three'(!bef;ts:>:cTe .also,piveii'for tho^Leader'of ~ the ;' Opposition'[/(Sir ' ; Joseph' Ward)) ;.• .';;• ','V,'-r ':' ..!..Mr.VC! E. Stathamjlmbmb'o'r'.fdr'itiiin- ' ; cdin Central,, .introduecilthe'deputation. . ■•<; He said that'it:represented, the;licensed trade,' wholesale' and "retail; throughout , tho 'Dominion. -There ; were ;: pr'eseiit in thc""de(Jutatibn'*delegates from every .....electjirjtl •.flijtoict i .'throußlioUt' the,whole j not ideni Vj ■tified-;with''th'e'''Liceiisirig Party or J l ' with,. ..the.Prohibition., -.Party/" but f 2l6<.etopidcCfdCnthe thffieifift)\s majority from his bnir porsonal'ConvictionsV ■ (Ap-, : A- weelrpreviouslyj'tho Prime' ;" Minister : |h'ad- received-a: deputation from,,theyNo-LTcenso Party" and had ; / hoard :their .views, and their arguments in favour of, reduction .to' the bare ma- ,. i>. jority. ..That morning they.asked him v. to hear the other side of tho.'question.. )'.'. T6 every question'there wore two sides ; :i andJt.Tyas; .only fair and. just .that tho ;' people "on'the other side should have an / ~>. opportunity of •putting' thc'ir? views before, him.' , -(Applause.) .'-'.• ; ". "■■'."■.•■■ ■. ■

V ■••.'"-■ -Dangers Emphasised; '§;■'-. Mr. Avi;E: Keriipt(Weilii]gtoii),--ivljo j" spoke on. behalf \ of" the";. Now, Zealand •■■: ~ Wine and: Spirit-; Merchants'. Assooia-' ■.'.„• tiop^-i .said that^tho'members of tho deputation camo from all portions' of New : i,.. Zealand from North Capo to the ?lutf. >, ■ "Wo have-assembled in such numbers h ,'i •■before, .y0u, , . , : he .continued, "for the pur- !;■ j.,-,ppse,,of,,emphagising'the ..dangers to • ■ which we are being subjected .and'direct-. £ i. ilig -attention to ■ the daggers -that 1 . ..threaten the .public weal and the- natV i ■■tip'nhl credit.if the demands of the Prd , - !-■ ■ ■' hibition; Party are..even favourably con- !■;'; sidcr'ed."- At/the outset, we would say !.-; , that the .Trade as a trade, knows iio fc. !■ political, party, and has no-politics, as ■S ;■ politics, beyond the defence of its rights ■ -.! ■ and-interests." ~.';•.■ ...

[ The Trade contributed, nearly one mil- [■ lion sterling to tho public revenues of ; vi'tlris country: its • members had upwards ( . of fifteen millions of capital-invested in .'". their businesses. „■ They considered it p. litterly'tflifair that their%usiness 'should f; be subjected to attack every.three years; \ and that it should, with all the interests be.threatened with cdmploto •; : extinction at the hands of an irresponsible, unsatisfied, and urisatisfiable minority of tho electors of this.country,; as < .represented' .by,-.the Prohibition. .Party. .mTli'6 Prohibitionists had made ft' clear '•"that nothing-loss than , "a-bare major-' '- ity"-would■ be• acceptable to them/- and that anything'less would be looked updn . n'fi./'orily .instalment.", The deputatidn '-■'contended -that any majority' less;'than GO per cent; of. the electors" voting :.- ■' ivould be inadequate, to .command rei • . . spect to the proliibition law; and "that if ; Prohibition,;was;, to bo. forced .upon a '■'..; substantial minority, illicit trading and '. its..cohcomitanti'"evils |. lilted, : and. conditions would arise that i' ' ', would'bo tnoral- (lestroyinß and degrad- ' ?.'•' Irip: : to~tho community. Mr. Kernot dealt at length with the financial aspect of tho : Wquestion-, and emphasised,.the-.difficulty .!■; that: would be experienced should -the \.Trade.be extinguished, in,providing suitable employment for those who had spent their , , lives .in it. (They were pleased, he said, that the Prime Minister had stated that "the country has to : '.-be -fair to those "who have-put- capital into this trade. , /, -While appreciating fhis statemont, they, had to emphasise the Jμ. fact:that tho Prohibitionists had given ■ -nb'"indication "of. fair treatment, to a 'Trade that was .conducting alegitim'aite .spn'ing a public want, and /.conveniences;". "If our-opponents,' livinc aTid occupations were- at'; stake," said "'Mr. Kernot, : "'.ve could easily understand how they would regard such a jialamity as their total extinction, with- .„■ '—.Jut' any; ■consideration'': whatever : ; heinp , shown: ;!;Our f,reserit : ' demands,''the're(prp, are:^- ;•■•■••■:■: "1. That tho public should lyiow ; ; :.iTrhat'.nr.w taxation .will be. imposed, ■". : - ;or what economies in!, .the : .- Service would bq necessary, to make ; ■ -good the ouo million sterling of ro- ; i!-: , venue that tlic . Prohibition Party i"".propose; to'destroy; , "';; \ f: ';2. That no majority short of the ex- -V. - -isting three-Kfths ishoiild . b.B.'"ent?r-. £ . J.l.tained, ak.auy less majority would rjjiot cominand .the moral .respectand:;; ftjisiipnort of the people. . •"'■" '. VJ.'-".."3. That, four years is inadequato t ; : T.ito allow/.of. tlie. v nec'cssary»-.adjus,t--., . Jinont beijig inrideMn the Trade's- and - y y: -in the Dominion's fiimnnes, , aiid we-' , ;-".fi'ubmit that this period should be XV"cxtended-to at,least ~se_vpn years. pi _ ':--'£-: "4. 'That , sr>m_e prpyision shorild-- ' ;f_-"lie mado for aiding'those-who would A T2he thrown out of employment by Sithc action of tho Prohibition ■- -;■;■• \--, ;■-.;;;„:;. '~-■"'■ TJ'ey 'viewed with aprfri;hension'and ,' "elarni the' increa's'e of the loss 'of-■ businesa! hnd.. livcliljopd tf)_' niiiny . itjibusancTs, fho. sacrificq-of. millions of money, and the disnrganigafion'bf'comtnerce getierallyi ..not..to sppakl'of the. iJJominion's' crcdit.should the Parliament i, :noW. assemhle.tl'eveh';'cdhsider what the- *•' Prohibitionists, bo. given effeci'to". * ",' ''"'■ '. '■■•■'■ ..^Finally".Mr. Kcriibt apked the' Prime .Minister;.to, use his';influence and__onf deavours to ' ininress' Parliament; with the dancers .of "making ;anyVdenarturo : : from or variation in the existing leaishtion governing tho licensing- auestion. unless it: be in tho :dircction- they ,had indicated, so thnt the, Trade and those interested ' might' Tin ''treated' with a grentor measure. , of .consideration- and ; lusticc. ..(Applause.): , . ......■• , , Defending the Majority. Mr. V. >S. Bankttrt, representing Clio Kew Zealand Brewers' -Association, enlarged upon the majority question. The Prohibitionists, , ho said, had nothing at etake. Tliey .were.fighting-for a sentiment which was .without substance. They were ■ attacking -the business' and livings of their neighbours. They were threatening the public credit, the countrv's commei'ce;:;and_-ass!iiling'the.;indi-. vidual rights and privileges of the peoIt was doubtful if any majority constitutionally had any right to deprive even a minority of the privilege.of determining for itself what it shall cat .if what it shall drink. He submitted, that a three-fifths majority: should be maintained because:— '.'■'. "1. Any less a majority would ■ not command the respect of. tho and any law of this kind.not Shaving the respect of tho people % could not be enforced. • -:; -"2..Under .various Acts..of_ Par-

liamont, 'baro majorities' aro not allowed to decide questions', involving tho rights of others belouging to the same-community. ,- "3. 'Baro majorities' aro not suf- ■ Ocient to, carry a judgment.in certain civil: and criminal actions. In • others', ono dissentient in a jury prevents a-verdict. . ;> ■ ■.'.'4.'.;lh"somo local governing t bodies;. questions regarding loans ;- .land -finance, must be.carried by a .;:three-fifths majority. .•■ J t!-','!'Ov'.lii 'fho Companies' Act, -a | >*, three-fourths majority, is required ■.to ;carry -certain special resolu- ■ . ti0h5."....'..-. ... It. was neither fair nor' reasonable, Mr. Bank"M(' r ;'continued, that the law should ono section of tho community 1 to-iinposo irremediable loss upon another section. It had been claimed by the'. Proljib.itionists' memorial "that the niajority.l'for National Prohibition was at 'llasV election 5i,2820f the votes recprded, J ?i r 'ib\it it ought to have been shWri r that' ; th'e total votes recorded for National Prohibition were short of a three-fifthsTliifajority of the total elec<irs of the Dominion by no fewer than 1)4,082, ah'd'Hhat.cven a 60 per cent, majority of the.total votcs_ polled would not evon bo a bare majority of the total voters, on the rolls. It was, therefore 'only problematical that a 60 por cent v majority at tho polls would ■ be equai'to a bare majority of the total ~ voting, strength of the Dominion. At 'the"last.'election the National Prohibition vote was short of a ba'ro majority of the on the rolls by no fewer than,' 35,078 votes.' Thoy submitted, then,- that Parliament should not bo asked to reduce- the majority required 'to carry National Prohibition when even a GO per cent, majority would ;not'represent an actual baro' majority of the electors in the Dominion. In ■ conpluding, Mr. Bankart submitted that'the'-fact that a .majority was cast for- National. Prohibition at tho last election-was due in great measure , to the ambiguity of the ballot-paper. On the new ballot-paper the issue should bo expressed in the plainest possiblo terms. '-(Applause:) ' . ,!n the "Dry" Districts. Mr. :J. f : QliThonisoii, of Invercargill, representing the "dry" areas, said that ■ public opinion in these areas had undergone a change. The ..Prohibitionists had stated tliat .in 1902 there was, a majority.for- No-Licenso of 3000 votes, bilt hp would point out after nine years': trial pi No-License tlierq wa« ■ a majority in faymir\ of.' cpntimiahco and restoration, of. 2400 ,'.v6tes'...; -Not only had tliis change, in ''opinion with regard to No-' ]/icenso Wion iftariifested'throughout'tho D.omjniqii, a ret regression of- c>4oo; votes,but in .the.'Norliicense. areas the decline of the Prohibition party's- strength Mil been more 'strongly marked/ Leaving out Grey-Xynn and- Eden, so contiguous to Auckland t that little incpnveriienco was ..'experienced . in 'obtaining liquor, none of, the No-Licorisc areas was able at the last- election : to maintain the 'majority necessary to carry No-License in _ the first instance. Som« of these Nfl-Liconso areas werp- actually more favourable to licensing than some electorates .'that now enjoyed the-ad-vantages: of , the licensing system. Re also .pointed out that .sinco the' f.r« area carried No-License, t'u- Snnk bill had materially increased. It wae'uttei-. Iy untrue, .he said, to assert ,that the quantities of liquor going through tho Courts were tho total quantities con.' sumed in N.b-Lieense areas. He • was able, to state from official documents that the .consumption of locallj-madQ. Deer in No-License Invercargill alone was greater.to-day than it wae undor licensing., They, knew from the Customr returns 'that .there were-; distributed'Vo' fewer than an average of 3300 two-" gallon kegs of beer.'per month to tho homes and other places in the gill electorate; and that the "keg party system," which was the direct outcomeof No-License, was fraught witl; greater qvils than wore ever conceivable under .licensing. Indeed the- tendency of No-Licenso had been towards an 'increased' consumption of alcoholic liquor, and'the' effect had been shown in a larger dumber of "first offenders" in Invercargill than was the average of any licensing district in the Dominion. AH tliis -.vent to show that Prohibition is not a. temperance- movement, buf merely a political agitation! Mr. Thom6on also- contended that injustice was done'where'hotels lost their licenses through'the- alteration of electoral boundaries. -Ho submitted that these hotels should'retain their licenses until i .such timev.as/a three-fifths majority, of tho electors iti'fhe : new district.had determined tho licensing issue at tho next ensuing. election. Similar- conditions should apply when boundary alterations transferred.'Hotel properties from NoLicense .to. License districts. .(Applause.) . ThO'.Mdyor of Invercargill. •:■ Mr;. 1 ' Duncan MlFavlane, Mayor of Invercargiiy said tliat ho did not havo the- slightest intention of speaking when he ehtered"ifHe building. A few minutes before ho,hflfl been asked to tak« part. "He did-so great pleasure, for ho believed statements of Mr. Thomson had,' under-estimated the conditions in Invercargill -under No-License., (irj He was an old resident prlnyeTcargill, having spent over half 'his;lifo:.th'eT ; 6j and he could assuro the I Primo Minister that the state of things in Invercargill was not as it should be. Nothing going on there at the present tinio was as should be. He : was sure Prohibition had-' not been in the best interests of. the. town. Ho supported and believed the statements made by Mr- ThonrsSn, with regard to Invercargm. ■ ; More About Majority. • .Mr.-.J'.-VB'evcridge, of Christchurch representiiig/tho" Now Zealand' licensed -Victuallers' Association,' said there was another matter which ',. ought : to be Jjrou'ght under the i'nme Minister's notice, it bore upon the attitude.'of tho L'roliibitipnists thombelves towards a -bare, majority in the conduct of their -«wn-business. They would recall tho fact that lour years ago a certain famous compact was arranged betweeh the Government and the Prohibition]?ts,;- i Tlie:New Zealand Alliance had to decide whether this agreement should be carried out, and a resolution supporting the compact was carried at tho No-License Convention by a majority of 76 votes to CO, but, according tea report of tho proceedings contained in a local newspaper of Juno 25, 1910, it was then agreed to proceed no further ; in tho'matter, "owing to the closeness of the division." > Now, what did tins mean? Simply that, the Prohibitionists, having adopted a certain 'measure by a majority of 56 per cent., refused to carry it into effect becauso the parties were so evenly balanced. Hero thoy had tho Prohibitionists themselves affirming most deliberately and emphatically the necessity for demanding a .very'large majority to justify an important" change in their policy, and these are the very people who now declared that the baro majority was the only just and equitable and democratic standard, and that they would not be satisfied until they get it. After this, how was it possible'for. the Prohibitionists to maintain that they had the right to demand a bare majority on s'.ich a question aa the total abolition o ( . liquor, involving, as had been shown, so much capital nnd the livings and employment of thousands of people, in the Dominion ? The only other point lie would like to mention was that while the Prohibitionists laid a great deal of stress on the largo number of votes recorded in favour of National Prohibition at the last Licensing poll, the deputation bad a return showing the percentage of valid votes recorded for Continuance and NoLicense in the years VJOS and 1911 respectively. This made very interesting reading.- It showed that in the 5G licensed areas the vote for No-Licenso declined from 52 per cent, in 1908 to 48} per cent, in 1011—a decrease of ..three and .a half per cent,; while the

vote for Continuance increased from 46J por cent, to 51 J percent., an increase of 4i per cent. Jn Hie twelve No-LuTchs6 areas the No-License vofe fell from 00J per cent, in 1S)O8 to 56 por cent, in 1011 —;i decrease of 4 J per cent. On the other hand, the vote for restoration, which in ISOB was 38j per cent., rose in 1011 to 43J per cent. —an increase of o} per cent, l'his certainly did not bear out the contention of tho Prohibitionists that public feeling in the country was moving steadily in favour of the total abolition of liquor. In view of the trend of public opinion, they contended that Parliament had no mandate from the country to abate one iota of tho majority required under existing legislation. (Hear, hear, applause, and cheers. , ) \> PRIME MINISTER'S REPLY NOT A PARTY ISSUE. The Right Hon. W. F.'Massey was greeted with applause and ihrcc cheers when he climbed on a chair to speak in reply. Ho wished, he said, to congratulate tho deputation in the first instance on the very concise and businesslike manner in which their viewe had been put forward by the various speakers. As they were all aware, Ministers and meaibcrs had had an opportunity of hearing the other side of the question about a week ago, and he would like to say that lie believed it was. right that.the supporters of both sides of the question should havo an opportunity of expressing their views not only to Ministers but to members of Parliamcnt- r (applauso)—with tho object of having those views considered b.v tho Legislature. They were mostly .interested in tho Bill before the House. This Bill, as had been indicated, would be laid before Parliament in a few days. Notico had been given of ibthe previous day. Bequests had come from both sides for legislation this session, In fact, these representations had como last session also, but owing to pressure of business it had not been possiblo for Parliament to deal with tho question. This year the Bill would como beforo Parliament.' in a few days, certainly in a few weeks, and he would like. W express a hope that it would be considered without heat or any strong feeling. The Bill would_ be the same, lino for line, as that introduced last session. Ho had no doubt that in the committeestages amendments would bo movedi and, speaking for himself, he could say that those amendments would receive, the consideration to which they might be entitled.. The Bill, was not a party measure.' Ho noted with some satisfaction . the .statement made that tho representative!;'of ;the Trade did.not.take up .with,any .party in politics. There were members of • the Government party —some of them his colleagues—who would vote against some of the proposals in the.Bill, and there wore men on tho Opposition side who would support every clause in the Bill, and would evon be ready to go further than the Bill proposed. The same might 'bo said of men of- his own side. No pressure would be brought to bear on any;member to vote in any particular way, i.r to break tho pledges lie had given to his people. To sum up, what the Government proposed.to do, in accordance, with tho promise given last year, ■ was to give tho people through their representatives in Parliament, an opportunity of ,, expressing their opinions or making any: amendments in the licensing law during the present session. Tho Government proposed to do this, but at the same time they .were going to take care to see that fair play was dono to the representatives of both sides, and that no injustice would be done to either party. (Applause.)., And he believed the representation's '.ma'db ,woulcl' help to that end. This was all ho wished to say, an dif he talko dfor a month ho could not say more. Hβ was clad to have heard the deputation, and to acknowledge that their views had been expressed, most 'reasonably.- (Applause.) .■ . ■