SECOND BALLOT REPEAL.

Dominion, Volume 7, Issue 1918, 28 November 1913, Page 4

SECOND BALLOT REPEAL.

COMPLAINT ABOUT PROCEDURE. i . OPPOSITION DISARMED, The Honj/H'. ,'D'JBELL moved:.'' That' Jlr. ..'Speaker v'do; now icayo tho chair pursuant to tho following resolution of this Council, passed November 28, viz.: 'That this Councildo. to-morrow resolve, itself into....a Committee of tho whole Council'for the purpose of taking into consideration tho amendments made in the Bill ..by Aho.Mouse pf Representatives. Ml.lib n-.ndo,no remark in submitting his "motion.; , ~.;,, .

Tho Hon.. W. C. P. CARNCROSS said'Jie'tiisapprpved'/of the■ manner in which-the Bill had/been dealt with before reaching its present stage. A Bill embodying such an 'important constitutional change shcnild have gone through all stages in .the' Council, and the fact that it was not to igo through the Council in>this way deprived tho Chamber of spmo of its opportunities of considering;' dlid possibly amending, the Bill. Ho. admitted' that'as tho Bill affected'' the .House of Representatives the measure ought (to have been introduced thece. It could not properly have originated in tho (Souncil. There was tho other question to bo-answered: Why,.was piot the. Sfecoud Ballot repeal introduced hi'a soparato Bill? Facts would foijco jhpnourablo metnbers to the conclusion that' the course).'.chosen by the Government was the only course .by which-the Bill could have- reached the Council. As to why this was so ho would not go, into details, but it was as well to faco facts plainly 'instead of setting up straw men to knock, tliem down again. Now, however, the Council would have the privilege- of a Conunittee discussion, and this,should disarm most of the opposition likely to be offered on tho score of procedure. Speaking of the matter of tho Bill, ho said" ho waa not sure whether the Bill proposed a chang£ for better or for worse. The old system had been fairly generally condemned in its day, and ho did not like tho prospect of a reversion to a system by which members could bo returned by minorities. Ho did not urgb that the Second ' Ballot was without faults. He ' was of opinion that tho Bill should have been withhold until' next session, when tho Government proposed to introduce a Bill dealing more generally 'with electoral i'e-. form. .'Ho would like to sec a system of preferential voting introduced in New Zealand; and he. woukl J vote against tho present measure. . ,

Mr. Rigg's Amendment. The Hon. J. RIGG saidho was satisfied with the conclusion tho honourable gentleman; had _ come to, but he was quite sure the reasons he had advanced were all against that conclusion. He (Mr. Kigg) had listened in vain for some reasons lor agreeing to the motion that tho Council should go into Committee, and as there seemed to bo no reasons, he suggested that tho Council should not waste,time in considering the Bill in Committee, but rathcMtgree to/tho amendmenfr-.wliiclv4ie ? propo-sed.to move. His amendmeht,''.\vhich he moved, iii'due' course, flits': "That this Council 'disagrees to tho amendments made, by the House of Representatives in the Legislature Act Amendment Bill, and appoint a Committce.to drajw- up reasons, for so This, %• said, would allow thc.-,Coiincil to vofcs? in tho usual way, and he preferred ;'it to the 'proposed method'of g'iing into Committee on the Bill!" "The procedure adopted by the Government in regard to this Biil was unusual, ho claimed, but ho- admitted that it was-constitutional. - At the same time thc'-,j)rt!peJlon't{ was a dangerous one. Jf the Council went into Committee, ' :.']io.V.'.\v'6'ulil "'move an amendment to make it necessary for tho Government to provide a substitute fof the secbn/l ballot.

Undo the Mischief. The Hon. O.'gAMUlirj said he agreed with all that Mr. Carncross had said about the impropriety of the Council being .deprived r of-the opportunity.of discussing the Bill on all its stages, and lie agreed also that that objection was removed if,the Council went into Committee'on'the" Hill.'-" This would give tliem virtually* a second-reading discussion, and a Committee discussion on tho various clauses ouo,b,y,oue. The courseadopted,ji.n, ■jnp i tliei;,;place was fortunately an unusiiai olio. Ho admitted, even, that it _ was an objectionable course, but objectionable courses wcro necessary in "sonW circumstances. It was unite right, to say that any Government in power would have- followed, as this Government had been compelled to follow, the courso to'which exception was now being taken. Hut ho entirely disagreed with the proposition of Mr. ltigg and Mr. Carncross,, that the system to which it wf-i proposed to revert was ait unsatisfactory, system. Ho was ono of those who believed that there nover was sufficient reason for the introduction of tho second ballot, and he would bo quite w '.ing to agree to the putting of a substitute into the Bill if lie were not convinced that it would be' unwise to do so. Tho second ballot had been tried, and found to be mischievous, and Parliament would be doing enough if.-it undid tho msieliief it had already 'done. He would vote a"ainst Mr. Itigg's Amendment, and he would vote for .tho Bill. What right had tho Council to say to members of the other place that they should stand- tvo elections, when tlioso honourable, gentlemen had said that one was sufficient?.

The Hon. G. JONES indicated that ho would oppose the Bill. Good Reasons. The Hon. C. H. MILLS did not think tlio second ballot had worked satisfactorily, and it had been roundly condemned by members of both sides, any case, the Bill had been passed by a sensible majority of the other House, and as the measure affected only that House, he did not think tho Council would be right in,opposing it for party reasons. "■ Tho Hon. J.' B. CALLAN said ho woUld vote lor the measure mainly for tie reason that it Jiad come -up 'from tho liouso with a good majority in its' favour and, Jio thought the 'Council would bo taking upon itself a very serious responsibility if it rejected a measure affecting only the House, whioli had been passed by a good majority of that Ghambjr. lie would support' the 1 ill also because ho knew as a fact that tho second ballot had -been condemned as a. failure from end to end of tho country. Personally he did not believe m preferential voting. Bather he would like to sco introduced in New Zealand a system of proportional representation. . Tho Hon. Silt G. MAURICE O'IIOHKE took strong exception to the action of tho House in putting into tho Bill a clause that was entirely foreign to the nil-important matter it originally contained.

'The Hon. W; BEEHAN said lie would opposo the Bill unless the Loader of the Council would say that next jear a substituto would be provided for it by the Government. ' ' . A Vicious System. The Hon. W. \V. M'CARDLE said lie had been a strong supporter of the second ballot when it was introduced, being sensible then of flic evils of the old system. ■ But ho said now that the second ballot had introduced evils which were infinitely worse. Consequently lie would voto to abolish it, although he admitted ho would have done so with more- satisfaction if n substitute were provided for the second ballot. Ho still hoped that something would bo put forward which would take the place of it. Tho' Hon. Silt WILLIAM HALLJONES said that if he had to fight another election ho would much prefer to do it under tho old system than unUcr the second ballot. Ho know that there was dissatijfaction with the second ballot immediately after it was tried, and tho dissatisfaction was greater today than ever. He would vote for tho Bill.

Tho Hon. C. 51. LUKE admitted that the second ballot was wholly vicious, but he was disappointed that no substitute was being provided for it. He would, however, take tho very first opportunity offering of voting out the sernnd ballot. Tho Hon.. J. E. JENKINSON said that tho Second Ballot had proved so obnoxious that lie could not understand anyone in his senses voting against tho repeal of it, and ho trusted that no more experiments in the way of voting methods would be. tried. MINISTER IN REPLY, REASONS FOR THE REPEAL.

!' Tiie Hon, H. D. BELL, in reply, argued that it was absurd for honourable members to say that while. the Second Ballot was bad they would not vote for the repeal of it unless a substitute were provided. Surely they need not. object to the getting rid of a system which was worse than the old one. Especially was this necessary when it was perfectly clear that whilea largo majority of members of both Houses were agreed upon abolishing tho Second Ballot, they were not agreed ad to what ought to replace it. For this reason it had been decided to get rid of it first and then a majority could decide what was tho proper thin;; to replace it. Some members urged that preferential voting bo the new scheme, Personally he thought that system was detestable becauso it led to bargaining and collusion before- tho ballot, "instead of tho bargaining and canvassing that now took place between the ballots. As far as his reading went it showed that preferential voting had led to nothing but corruption wherever it had been tried. He explained tho circumstances which had compelled the Government to introduce the Second Ballot repeal into another Bill in order to get it through the' Jiouse. \ Tho amendment was defeated by 22 votes to; 3. 'Those who supported : it were: Messrs. Itigg, Jcnkiuson, and Loughnau.

IN COMMITTEE. ;' Til! NEW CLAUSE AGREED TO. : Tho C'ounciT then went into Committee on tho now-clause introduced in tho House. •The Hon. J. Kigg moved an amend"iiTciit to repeal Section 143 of the Legislature, Act, which provided simply that the candidate securing the highest number of votes should bo elected, tho repeal to'take effect from October 1, 1!)14. The object of his amendment, ho pointed out, was to force the Government to provide a substituto for tho Second Ballot. The Hon. H. D. Bell, opposed tho amendment, urging as one reason that ought to appeal to honourable members tho fact that the same question had been brought up repeatedly in the other place, tho members of which were affected by tho Bill, and been defeated by largo majoriHc.i. The. amendment was defeated by 18 votes to G. Those who voted for it were: Messrs. Kigg, Beethan, Harris, Thompson, Gilmer, and .Toner*. Tho clause was agreed to on the voices., Tho Hon. J. E. Jcnkiuson ; moved an amendment to the effect that the clause should not come into operation until September 1, 1014. The, amendment was defeated bv 17 votes to (i. The Hon, Sir E. M. o'R.oike then moved that tho Chairman do leave the Chair. Tin's motion was defeated by 15 votes, to 8. Finally Passed. Tho Speaker resumed tho Chair. On the motion that the Council concur'in the report of the Committee, the lion. J. Rigg announced that he would call a division on tho motion. The division was taken accordingly, and tho motion was agreed to by l(i votes to (i. Tho Council adjourned at G p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Wednesday.