PARLIAMENT IN SESSION.

Dominion, Volume 7, Issue 1910, 19 November 1913, Page 10

PARLIAMENT IN SESSION.

PUBLIC SERVICE AFFAIRS. GRIEVANCE MINISTER'S STRONG REPLY. SESSIONS PROGRAMME OUTLINED. ELECTORAL REFORM. OPPOSITION AGAIN OBSTRUCTING.

/'. Tlie Legislative Council sat at 2.30 "jp.m.. ;'■■''■.'■''■..' The Bank of New Zealand 'Amendment Bill, and the Post and Telegraph .'Amendment Bill, the Board,of Agriculture Bill, and the Footwear Regulation 'Bill were received from tho House .of Representatives, and read a first time. The Railways Authorisation Bill (the iHon. H. D. Bell) was put through all stages and passed. /. ' ' The Local Bodies' Loans Bill (the Hon. H. D. Bell) was further considered in Committee. Progress was reportJed after 'a. new clause of a machinery .character had been a'dded.

STATE ADVANCES. .The State Advances Bill (tho Hon. H. .*). Bell) was further considered, in (Committee. The clause setting forth ,'itho constitution of tho Board had been \.postponed on a previous occasion when 'an amendment was moved by the Hon. '•\J. E. Jenkinson to include 'as a member of the Board the Minister of Finance. The argument in favour of the amendment was on lines made familiar by debates on similar questions in the iLbwer House. i The Hon. J. Duthic '. said the "call upon Ministers to undertake so many speoial duties under new Acts ,was now so general that tho Minister could not attend to .them all. The tendency was to pile up duties upon. Ministers, and they had no leisure in which to attend to the other multifarious du- . ities devolving upon them. Tho duties imposed under these Acts were so numerous that they simply could not bo .performed by Ministers unless the number of Ministers were doubled. Of course this was impossible, and.theso duties must therefore bo left to such responsible people as wero tho members of this Board. Such' gentlemen would never dream of dealing with the country's money except upon the evidenco heforo them. The Boards of Insurance Companies had no difficulty in getting payable investments for their funds, and these wero always procured by officers of the companies. Surely these high officers of Stato could bo trusted to administer tho. moneys of the country in thftsamo way. Tho presence of tho Minister on the Board might bring in political influence, especially when a Minister attended at tho Board meeting only when some special application ' was to come forward, or when some pressure was brought te bear upon him. That the Minister should do this opened tho way to political corruption. He hoped the Minister would not be compelled te be a member of the Board, for the work would be much better done by the officers after they knew they were clothed with full responsibility for their'actions.' '■'. , '. Tho amendment was defeated by 20 votes to four. The four who voted for the amendment were: The Hons. J. E. Jenkinson, G. Jones, J. Anstey, and B. Harris ■ ' ( The Bill was reported with amendments, .'and.read a third.timo. PUBLIC WORKS. The Public Works Amendment Bill (the Hon. .H. D. Bell) was committed and reported with' minor amendments, imd'read a third time. '

SHIPPING AND SEAMEN. The Shipping and Seamen Amendment Bill (the Hon. H. D. Bell) was also reported with amendments, and read a third time. The two new. clauses added in the lower House, after a strenuous agitation by Mr. A. H. Hindmarsh, were deleted on/the motion of'.the Minister. These clauses provided' that shipowners should' not' contract themselves out of their liability in. respect, of damage through errors in navigation and the like. Mr.. Bell said the clauses were wrong and inequitable, and the Government had, after consideration, decided to withdraw them.

TRAMWAYS BILL. ■ / AMENDMENT- .RELATING TO STRIKES. The Tramways Bill (the Hon. 11. D. Bell) was committed and reported with those amendments recommended by the Special Committee to which the Bill was referred. Thoro were other amendments ulso. G'he Eoxton-Sandon Tramway was excepted from .the- provisions of tho Kii- -V! ■':..• ■'~ ' Another new amendment of great importance was introduced as a new clause by the' Minister.; He said the object of tho clause was to provide that 'in the event of a strike the-trams-would not of necessity cease running. Such were tho requirements of tho law as to certificates for drivers that in the event of a strike they could;not.bo replaced. ,It waa proposed by this clause to prevent tho laying up .of the result of a striko of drivers by-giving the Government power to suspend'the clause in tho principal Act defining the qualifications of drivers. The object of the' Government was not, as,might be contended, to encourage the establishment of "scab" unions. But tramway employees had no right to go out on .striko without full notice, such notice as would ei? able the corporation to make arrangements. They might use the undoubted right of all workers to refuse to continue at work unless they chose, but the servants of tho public engaged in providing services of great use and advantage must expect that tho public would take power to protect themselves in tho event of a strike, and to protect the men whom the strikers' action compelled them to employ. During the time of suspension certificates would bo granted'to the now drivers, and these certificates might become permanent. Tho Hon. J. T. Paul said ho would not oppose the clauso, but he would have taken exception to it but for the fact that the owners of tramways, the municipalities, are constituted upon a popular franchise. ■ Ho hoped the clause was not panic legislation. Ho admitted, of course, the of the community to protect itself. .' .. ' Tho Hon. J. E. Jonkmson said he would not oppose tho clause. He had. however, srotesiad.whnn^i h B ..twooosal

was originally made that certificates should be issued to tramway drivers. The Bill was reported with amendments. ; 'The Council rose at 5.6 p.m. THE HOUSE. PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSIONERS. AN OPPOSITION GRIEVANCE. POST & TELEGRAPH AFFAIRS. THE GOVERNMENT'S ATTITUDE. ATTORNEY-CENERAL DEFENDS NEW SYSTEM. Tko Housii of Representatives met at 2.30 p.m. SIR JOSEPH "WARD moved for leavo to introduce the Public Service Amendment Bill. In doing so he said that tho' present Attorney-General had on more than one occasion taken the course that he was taking now. Tho Prime Minister: His Bill was printed, and yours is not. Sir Joseph Ward said that ho had been unablo to ascertain the contents of Bills brought in by Mr. Herd man until long after thoy were introduced. The Prime Minister said that Mr. Herdman's Bill had been introduced at a proper period of the session. .Sir Joseph Ward said that it was rory hard to say what a proper period of the session was.

The Prime Minister: You know that •private days liave gone. Sir Joseph. Ward said that tho example of the present Attorney-General reconcilcd him to a course of action against which, on tho'-.whole',' there iWbb a good deal to bo said. He went oh 1 to remark that his object in introducing the Bill was to secure an opportunity of ventilating the grievances of the delegates to the Post and Telegraph Offi-, cors' Conference against the Public Service Commissioner. None of the Post and Telegraph officers _ had approached him personally. In his opinion, extraordinary disabilities had been imposed upon the members .of the Public Service by the adoption of Commissioner control. Tho section of the Public Service so controlled was tho only section of tho community that could not go to a member of Parliament with its troubles. The delegates to the Post andTclegraph Officers' Conference, ho went on to remark, had been refused an interview with tho Public Service Commissioners, in order to set forth their alleged grievances. The condition of that portion of tho Service represented by these delegates was comparable to that of a waterlogged ship. He appealed to the Post-master-General to sa.v what he thought of tho position in which the great Department under 1113 control was placed. The Postmaster-General was helpless to take any action in the. matter. If he interfered he would bo fined £50. He was in the position of a mcro cipher, and that was a very extraordinary and anomalous state of affairs. Ho went on to put on record the grievances of tho delegates to the Post and Telegraph Conference as set forth in the statement published in the local newspapers some days ago. While he could not vouch for the validity of these complaints, ho remarked, lie knew that the men who had made them were men to be trusted. . It was clear that an impasse had arisen between the officers and the Commissioner. \ This was the first occasion on, which public servants had been prevented from making representations in a becoming manner to the responsible heads of. the Service. Many 'difficulties had been smoothed away in the past by. friendly conferences between members of the Service '• aiid Ministers or :head-s of' Departments. If the. attitude of the Public Service Commissioner was to be affirmed, a serious disability was going to be imposed on the officers of the Post -and' Telegraph Department. The rank and file of the Service were represented at tho recent conference, and tho rank and file of the Service found themselves. denied an opportunity of laying their -grievances before the Commissioner in' order that they might bo considered. This was a .very unhappy and undesirable state of affairs. . A BENEFICENT ACT. 1 HON. A. L. HER OMAN STATES THE FACTS. : The Hon. A/ L. HERDMAN said ho considered ft well ' that the right honourable gentleman should liavo ventilated this matter in tho Houso, because it'would mako it possible to bring the real facts beforo tho public. He had not road the published statement read ljy the honourable gentleman, but he knew the facts of the caso. In his opinion the public hail come to realise, and members of the Public Service had come to realise, that the Public Service Act placed upon the Statute Book last session was one of the most beneficent measures that Parliament had ever passed. It was realised now that persons who entered the Public Service now could do it with- some expectation of rising because of their own ability and energy, and not- because of any political influence they could exercise.; Honour-, able gentlemen on the other side of the House resented the Public Service Act and resented its popularity because of the fact that they could no longer oxerciso the political influenco that they exercised in days gone by. If any justification of the Public Service Act were required, it was to bo found in the able report from the Public Service Commissioner laid upon tho tablo earlier ill tho session.

Advantages oi the Act. Ono paragraph in tho report read as follows :— "A short oxperienco of tho woikinp.

of the Public Scrvico Act Ims shown that the present system has advantages over the former oue. "(a) It enables a concrete view of the Service to betaken and secures the benefit of co-operation, between Departments. "(b) It enables means to be devised to ensure economy and efficiency which can be applied to the Service as a whole or to sections thereof. "(c) It places tho recruiting of the Service on a, basis which will result in a higher standard of efficiency. ''(d) It widens tho avenues of promotion by enabling- interchange between officers of the different Departments. "(e) It enables rapid discover} - to be made of points of inefficiency or of wasteful methods of working. "(f) It gives an equal opportunity to ali to enter the Public Service and to proceed therein by merit and ability. "(g) It oreates a healthy rivalry between officers throughout tho Service." Mr. Herdman said that in spite of what hon. gentlemen on the other side of the House said and despite criticism published in Opposition newspapers, he was satisfied from what ho had heard from Public Servants themselves —men competent to speak —that tho alteration which had taken place by reason of tho existence of the Public Service Act was of incalculable benefit to tho Public Service of the country and was likely to prove- of immenso value to tho public themselves. Mr. Ell: I have heard differently. Mr. Hcrdmau said that the hon. gentleman might have heard differently. It had to bo recollected that perhaps forty per cent, of the members of tlie Public Service voted for gentlemen on the other side of the House. It had to be remembered too that when tho Public Service Act was passed ' there were many Public Servants who owed their positions to political influence exercised by hon. gentlemen on the othor side of the House.

Mr. Ell: Very unfair! - Mr. Glover: I have done it I The Deputation's Complaint. Going on to speak about the Post and Telegraph deputation Mr. Hcrdmau said that these.delegates had passed a resolution which was not based on tact, and which they admitted was not based on fact. Tho resolution was as under: "That this conference of Post and Telegraph officers, after comparing the classification list for post and telegraph officers with that foi- other Civil Servants, is of opinion that different standards of valuation have been adopted when drawing up the respective lists, with detriment to. Post and Telegraph officers. It is of opinion that responsibility (speaking in general terms) is as high in the Post and Telegraph service, that the duties are as arduous, and that they are equally as important as those of other Civil Servants. It, therefore, places upon record a strong protest against this differentiation, and urges upon tho Commissioner tho necessity for rectifying the anomaly."

"Not Based on Fact." Mr. Hordman said that it was admitted by tho delegates, when they wero questioned by tho Public Sorvico Commissioner, that their resolution was not based on fact. It was passed wildly, without thought and without proper consideration, and, let him repeat, it was not based in fact. These gentlemen wero politely asked by the Commissioner and his colleagues if thoy had any facts in support of tho resolution, and they admitted thoy had not. The resolution was an attack upon the methods of the Public Service Commissioner. It was asserted that in valuing offices in the Post and Telegraph Department, ho had not preceded upon tho same principle as when valuing offices in other Departments. Tho Public Service Commissioner, in effect, said: "If you gentlemen will be good enough to withdraw that resolution, or alter it, then we will proceed to consider anything you submit to us. But when you como before us to make a statement of that description, a resolution involving an attack and an impeachment, then we say that you ought to withdraw what you havo said, and como along in .1 polite and respectful way, and submit your grievances.'' The delegates declined to withdraw their resolution.

The Official Report. Mr. Herdman wont on to give oxtracts, as follows, from the report of tho proceedings when tho deputation interviewed the Commissioners:— "Mr. Thomson: I would like tho deleKates as a whole to realise the position that this assumes as regards ourselves: It is practically, in plain words, an impeachmont of the action of the Commissioner and his assistants in what they have done in regard to classification. We aro not prepared to accept any motion or protest of any such nature from any officer of the Public Service. I do not think it is a proposition or a suggestion that should havo been put in any document to be brought before the-Commissioners for discussion. It is assuming the position of faultfinder with the work of the Commissioners, and I think we are quite justified, before allowing anything of that sort to be discussed, to have the full facts and information upon which tho delegates came to their conclusion." In answer to Mr. Ngata, Mr. Herdman said that ho had no objection to laying the paper' from which ho.had quoted on the table. He went on;to contend that the delegates should have withdrawn tho resolution which they .admitted was based on hearsay or supposition. Tho Commissionere treated the delegates, not only with courtesy, but with every possible consideration. ■ Mr; Herdman went on to read further extracts from the official report, as under :—•■'.■■ ' "Mr. Thomson: That is all'.right, but you should be prepared with facts re: garding this reference. I am objecting to your commenting upon what we have done without' knowing 'what we have done. - : ■ _ . '. . "A delegate: It is practically impossible for us to obtain that information." Another extract was.: — "Mr. Tri«gs: ; I cannot understand why 29 gentlemen in the Public Service, of this Dominion, with tlheir wits about them, entering a Strong protest of this kind withont having,something in their minds to guido them. If you will only enlighten us: givo us facts. "A delegate: Tho facts that we give you aro contained .in tho noxt motion. ... "Mv. Triggs: Yon have mado a statement yon cannot prove. Not one of you can discover what the officers of the Public Service are doing. . . It is no use dealing in generalities. "A delegate: We have no way of finding out. To continue our argument wo must bo allowed to bring in comparisons. . . . When wo attempt comparisons with the rest of tho Service we are at. sea, because we do not know what tho position is."

Ah Imputation Denied. Mr. Herdman said that there was a suggestion throughout this controversy that there was dissatisfaction in the Post and Telegraph Department because of the reclassification of the Service. He denied this, and declared that, notwithstanding the attitude taken up by the delegates, generally speaking there was satisfaction throughout the Post and Telegraph Department with the reclassification of tho Service. There was moro satisfaction with tho rccont reclassification than there was with the classification (of the Post and Telegraph Department) in 1891.'. In that year tho number of officers classified was 1288, and the number of appeals was 222. Under the classification made the other day tho total number of officers was u36'2 and appeals numbered 461. -The percentage of anneals was 3.6 against the recent classification', whereas, tho peicentage of anneals ifl 1391 was 17.24.,

Sir J. Ward: Thai is a very unfair 'Statement to make. The classification has .been reviewed every year, and officers have had the right of appeal. Mr. Herdman: Does tho right lion, gentleman say that tho whole Department has been reclassified every year? Sir Joseph Ward said that the position had gradually altered from year to year.

Mr. Herdnian repeated that tho reclassification this year had given more satisfaction than that of 1891, The total number of officers not belonging to tho Post and Telegraph Department, who were affected by the classification, was 4950, and appeals from this section numbered 1452. .Many 0 f these had reference only to minor matters. Jho percentage, of appeals was 2905 per cent. Under the classification scheme propounded two or three vear« ago (when the right bon. gentleman was Prime Minister), which proved abortive, 4040 officers were classified, and appeals numbered 1750, a percentage of 33.3 : Under the elassSon scheme carried out by the Public Service Commissioner, the percentage of appeals was 29.93, almost isino" pnr cent, less than in the case of the abortive classification of two or three wars ago. Salaries Compared, ■ Mr. Herdman went on to compare salaries m the Commonwealth's Postal Department and that of the Dominion. In the Commonwealth an assistant supervisor was paid £210—£300 The occupant of a simitar position in the Dominion (head of staff) received £275 to £310. In the Commonwealth mail officers received £192 to £228. In the Dominion senior mail clerks received £200 to £260. Senior sorters in the Commonwealth received £180 to £195 nooJ. cler H 3 'I 1 the dominion got £120 to £230, and then up to £245. In the Commonwealth; sorters got £160 to ?J 7 i' *" ille Dominion mail clerks got £120 to £230, and up to £215. Lettercarriers in the Commonwealth got £72 4 " £15G, and in New Zealand'£so to £170. As to the Telegraph Department, supervisors in the Commonwealth got £310 to £360. Officers with similar duties in the Dominion got £330 to £370. Senior telegraphists in Australia got £285, and supervisors in New Zealand got £275 to £315. Telegraphists in the Commonwealth got £110 to £210, and in New Zealand £130 to £230 and up to £245. As compared with the Commonwealth, Mr. Herdman remarked, some at least of the officers of tho Post and Tehygrajih Department occupied a very favourable position, and got better salaries,

Classifications and Appeals, He supplied the following summarised particulars of successive classifications: 1891 (Post and Telegraph): 1288 officers, -222 appeals; 17.24 per cent. . 1913 (Post and Telegraph): 5362 officers, 461 appeals j 5.6 per cent. _ 1912 (other Departments, classification not goue on with): 4540 officers. 1750' appeals; 38.3 per cent. 1913 (other Departments): 4050 officers; 1452 appeals; 29.95 per cent. Under tho Commonwealth classification schemo tho percentage of anneals was 30.29. Mr. Herdman, in concluding, remarked that the new system had been ably inaugurated by the Public Service Commissioner and his assistants, and very successfully. It was' not to he expected that the Public Service Act would at once become popular everywhere. It was intended to regulate irregularities that had existed for some years. Another point to ho made clear in connection with tho difference between the Post and Telegraph delegates and tho Commissioner was that these gentlemen wero given an opportunity to withdraw tho resolution which they had apparently passed without proper consideration. The resolution was a distinct reflection upon the Public Service Commissioner and his colleagues. It was not based on facts, and it was admitted that it was not based on facts. In .courtesy these young men should have withdrawn and remodelled their resolution. They had no right- to take up the attitudo they did —it was wrong, and there was no justification for it. Had thoy acted with courtesy and decency thoy would have withdrawn and remodelled the resolution.

Mr. J. HANAN (Inverc-argtll) urged that the present satisfactory state of salaries in tho Post and Telegraph Department was' due to the able- and energetic Ministerial control of Sir Joseph Ward, of whom Sir Hermiker Heaton had said that lie was fit to fill the position of Postmaster-General in Great Britain. Ho wont on to contend that tho Commissioners in meeting tho Post and Telegraph Department delegates had taken up an arrogant and highhanded attitude, and had endeavoured to "bounce" the delegates. An attempt had been made to humiliate and "sit upon" tho delegates. He quoted from a speech made by Mr. AYebsfer in tho Commonwealth Parliament frith a view to showing that political and social influence stdl operated in the Australian Public Service under Commissioner control. It was unfortunate that tho Post and Telegraph officers should have been insulted and degraded.by tho Commissioners. Mr. Hanan twitted the Post-master-General with allowing | another Minister to defend his Department.

THE HON. R. H. RHODES. UPHOLDS THE COMMISSIONERS. Tho Hon. R. H. RHODES (Post-master-General) said that no attack had been made on tho Post and Telegraph Department. Tho men attacked were the Public Service Commissioners, and it was right that tho Minister of Justice (who introduced tho Public Service. Bjll) should defend them. The Comniis.sioners had been courteousness itself to the delegates. These men were not insulted by the Commissioners. ' Rather ,the insult was the other way. Tho delegates reflected on the Commissioners, and admitted that they had no grounds for making the reflection. The Commissioners had declared themselves quite ready to hear grievances, but they declined to receive generalisations. They had asked for facts, and these fact's wero not forthcoming. Had tho delegates withdrawn their impeachment of tho Commissioners, tho latter would have considered all the other matters brought before them. Ho did not believe for ono moment that the Post and Telegraph Department was in a state of discontent and unrest. He knew thatsome members wished to stir up discontent. An attempt to stir up dissatis. faction in the Department was made by one of the Wellington, newspapers during the recess, and he was happy to say that the attempt faited.. Under tho new classification salary increases of between £7000 and £8000 were given to the Post and Telegraph Department employees. As to the Australian, opinion quoted by Mr. Hanan, it w T as possible to get any opinion you liked from "Hansard." "Fancy," said Mr. Rhodes, "a Minister in Australia quoting tho member for Invercargill if ho wanted to get a local opinion of our Public Sarvico Commissioners." (Laughter.) The Labour Government had not attempted to do away with Commissioner control of the Public Service in Australia.

Mr. Hunan; They would: , Mr. Rhodes: No, The honourable 'gentleman is entirely wrong. No Minister would have tolerated tlio attitude on the part of tlio delegates which had been resented by the Commissioners. Mr. Hannn: Would you have; turned' them down? Mr. Rhodes: I would have turned them down if tliev had reflected upon my conduct and administration, 'Mr. Malum : On the sanm resolution? Mr. Rhodes: I would roitainly. In reply to the Leader of the Opposition, .he wished to say, that -ho felt yuito

happy. (Laughter.) He recognised that officers were entitled to go to the' Commissioners. He had told them that a'jy matters with which wished him to deal should first ho submitted to the Commissioners. Sir J. Ward: You ought to be fined £50. Mr. Rhodes: For giving advice? 1 think that is what every lion, member ought to do when ho is asked to find a billet—ho should refer tho applicant to the Commissioners. Other Critics. Mr. G. WITH" (Biccarton) said that tho Prime Minister and Postmaster-Gen-eral had been as activo as other members in forwarding applications for positions in the Public Service. Ho asserted that the system of Commissioner control had been brought in to shelter weak Ministers who were incapable of managing their own Departments. The Public Service Act was spoken of as "a beastly Act." Mr. Statliam called the Speaker's attention to a ruling that a. member must not speak disrespectfully of any previous Act of the Legislature unless he was prepared to move, for its repeal. The Speaker said that Mr. Witty was out of order.

Mr. Witty said that ho was only repeating what had been said outside. Mr. W. A. VBH'CH. (Wanganui) said that the Lontmissioncrs had been too thin-skinned in this matter. The essence of the resolution to which exception had been taken was that a new standard of valuation had been adopted with detriment-to the Post and Telegraph Department. There was no attempt to reflect upon the conference. Tho Commissioners had asked a delegation, consisting of one-half tho delegates to a conference, to alter a resolution which they had no power to alter. The Commissioners should either have asked the conference to reassemble, or should have asked file delegates to adopt a more respectful tone in future. He considered that the Commissioners shoald have adopted a more friendly attitude. A deadlock 'would not tfien have arisen.

Mr. Gf. M. Thomson: They ' can go hack any time. Mr. Veiteh: They ran go back any time on their hands and knees! He went on to state that if a secret ballot- 1 were taken of the- Service on the juration of upholding or withdrawing the resolution the'result would be unpalatable to the Commissioners. The Minister should defend tlio members of his staff against the Commissioners, or at least should take up a neutral attitude. In this ease the Commissioners had been hopelessly tactless. In reference to appeals against tha resent classification, Mr. Veitch said that they had been dealt with at such a rate that it seemed to him impossible that thoy should have been proDcrly considered. Mr. 3~. COLVIN (Duller) denounced the "attitndo taken up by the Commissioners, and condemned their appointment. He expressed a hope, that before long the Public Service ' Act would be repealed. Mr. T. M. WILFOED (Hutt) said that_ he had voted against the Public Serriqe Act on every possible occasion, and only regretted that there had not been more opportunities of voting against it. He considered that the Post and i Telegraph delegates had been "hunted off the mat" iiii a way that did not enhance the dignity of the Public Service Commissioners. Hightly or wrongly, public servants would believe that thoy were not going to get the opportunity of ventilating their grievances which was promised when the Public Service Act was passed. He hoped that the Commissioners, now that the A*t was passed, would make a success of it.

"A Fair Hearing." Dr. A! ;£. NEWMAN'S '(fclliivgton East) said that the Civil Service was left in such an unsatisfactory state by the previous Government that, though with misgivings, he had voted for tho Public Service Act. Ho was unable to under* stand why tho Commissioners had turned down the Post and Telegraph Department delegates as they had done. In his opinion, the delegates should har-e been given a fair hearing. _ The repori of the Public Service Commissioner was one of the ablest -documents ever laid before the House, but instances brought tinder his notice suggested that the Commissioners should exorcise a little move humanity. In one case thero were employees of a humble class for.whom the House had been aocus£oincd_ to vote increases of £10 a year. This the Commissioners had cut down to £8. He was quite sure that Parliament would never tavo voted for the reduction. In the case of the- Post and Telegraph gates, tho Commissioners should .have exercised more tact. Mr. Herdman: Bo you say that no tact was shown in this case? Then you don't know anything about it.

THE HON. F. M. B, FISHER. AN END OF POLITICAL CORRUPTION. , The Hon. F. M.-B. FISHER asked whether members would say that Mr. Bobertson (Public Service Commissioner) was'a man who was unfair. Mr. Glover; He is a, gentleman. Mr. Fisher: Very well, then. -Wo will take it that he treated tho deputation as a gentleman. He went on to suggest that a. report of the proceedings, when the deputation interviewed the Commissioners, should be printed as- a Parliamentary paper. Tho members of the deputation when they were asked to'submit facts "boggled about" and were unable to sustain anything, 'I'll* ratio of appeals against the recent Post and classification (8.4 per cent.) was a very modest one. Tho Commissioners had handled a very difficult problem. They had been in tho position of having to deal with Public Servants who baa been appointed only because they wore political touts, In the past the Public. Service had been a hotch-potch of corruption of tho worst type.

Mr. Mac Donald: What about Mr. Robertson whom you are eulogising? Mx. Fisher said that ho was not referring to any Civil Servant. It wns Ministers and members of Parliament who had been responsible for corruption. Some members of Parliament had made, a boast in the past that they did.more for the unemployed than the labour agencies, and he had heard of ono member "who had advertised in a newspaper in his electorate, advising that there wero vacancies in the Public Service, and that apli-Kcations could bo made through him. Something had been said about abuses of the Commissioner scheme in Australia, but it was a remarkable fact that although there had been a Labour Government in office for some time the Government had not thought of abolishing the Commissioner control. He hoped that the change in New Zealand would give the Civil Servants much moro political and civil rights. It would be possible, ho hoped, for Civil Servants to become member's of local bodies with tho utmost freedom. Mr. Isitt: Will yon give them full civil rights?

Mr. Fisher: I didn't say wo Would give them full civil rights, but they will Slave a better chance of 'freedom than they over had before. What Gort of a chalice would a Civil Servant have had under tho -old system if ho had stood against a member of tho party in poww? What sort nf a chance would Jin have bad in the Service? I venture to say ho would have been kept very busy indeed. Mr. Fisher wont on to refer to tho reports of the- interview between the Post and Telegraph delegation and the Commissioners. Tiro published i'opnrt had, he said, been mis* IrmliiiE, in that tho 'report mode it, apHew tSat the delegation had been .treat- [

cd in a cavalier manner. In actual fact they had been received in a very businesslike and firmly courteous manner. It was also a fact that the grievances tlie delegation set out were based "on a few casual observations, the .particulars of which were not supplied i", Tho motion was talked out- at 5.30 p.m.