THE TRAMWAYS BILL.

Dominion, Volume 7, Issue 1886, 22 October 1913, Page 4

THE TRAMWAYS BILL.

, , SECOND READING DEBATE. MORE ABOUT THE SIDE-STEP. CITY COUNCIL ACCUSED. Tho Hon. AY. FRASER (Minister cf 1 üblic Works) moved the second reading of tho Tramways Amendment Bill. lie did not make any speech in doing so. Mr. T. 11. DAVEY (Christchurch East) said that-lie wished to refer to t-lio words put into Mr. Wiii'ord's mouth two years ago when a Tramways Bill was before t'ho House. Mr. Wilf'ord then stated, on the authority of Mr. Richardson, that it would cost £400 to convort each car, and that this would amount to £25,000. Now tho City Engineer (M;\ Morton) said that it would cost £131 to convort each of 09 cars, a total of over £9000. Honourable members of the House had heen accused of developing hysteria, and trying to pass panic-stricken- legislation. Ho wanted to ask if any hysteria on the part of tho members equalled tho hysteria displayed by the two engineers. - Tho House was told two years ago that conversion of the palaco cars of which there wero 43 in Wellington, would entail rebuilding tho body, and would cost £500 per car. To-day they wero told that it would cost £131 to convert a palace car. Ho would like to ask the Minister of Public Works whether ho was told anything about tho probable cost of conversion when tlio Wellington City authorities mado an agreement with •him to convert so many cars per month. Mr. Frasor: Oh, yes, but they did not stato anything like that amount. Sir. Davey said that two years ago it was said by tho Wellington City ■authorities that to give eifcct to his scheme would cost £61,000. To-day itwas said that the cost would be £90j000. Ho wondered how much mare hysteria would be displayed. Tho City authorities must think that members_ wero a lot of school children to believe a statement of that character. Three years ago Mr. Richardson said that it cost £1200 to build a car. Tho present engineer said that a now car cost £1500. More hysteria, he w'ould suggest. • Conflicting stories. In Christchurch two years ago they were told that it would cost £60 to convort each car. To-day they were told that conversion would cost £25 per car. The contention of tho authorities in this City and in Christehuroh that they would require so many liew cars to make up for seats lost in existing cars when they were converted was.so much " piffle." Everyone knew that to-day strap-hangers . were allowed to an inordinate extent. Tho cars wero crowded during the rush hours and until thero was some regulation of strap-hanging it would be impossible to say how many people the cars carried. Two years ago, Mr. Davey continued, ho stood at the Royal Oak corner, and observed tho cars, and found that, except in rush hours, not ono car in four was full. Statements had been mado not only in this city, but in Christchurch, that very few accidents had occurred. It had been said that in Wellington no very serious accidents had occurred except in three' cases where tho men wore killed. - Ho was informed by tho Wellington Tramways Union, however, that eighty per cent, of tho conductors had been pulled off, knocked off, or had fallen off the footboards of cars in Wellington. List of Accidents. Yet they were told that the danger -was something inherent in a conductor's life. 'Mr. Davey put on record tho 1 following list of conductors ■ who liavo suffered' accidents in Wellington -since tho system of electric tramways was inaugurated. List of accidents reported to head office: —Aitken (killed), J. R. Welsh (died through effects), A. Hydo- (broken arm), Dodgskuh (damaged ribs), Newstead (concussion of brain), R. Parker (permanently injured), J. Boylo (broken ribs), A. M'Kay (killed), L.. Broedon- (killed), R. Brown ( ), J. Timms (rupture), Lawrey, Christeson, A. Cooper, Tricker, H. Ormnor, Lantiick, W. E. Corley, H. A. .M'DonalcJ, J. H. Dunn (all "fell off"), linowsley (kneo-cap injured), M'Dougall (scratched), N. Boylo (kneo skinned), Jephson, E. Evans, Mayall, T. Parker, P. Yates, L. Diamond, Storemant (all "reported slight"), Petherick (injured head), R- Wills, Bo.wio, Smethurst, Broughton, J. Crawford, Callaghan, A. Cooper, Walker, 11. Dunn, W. R. Dixon (all "shock"), Grant (pulled off by cart), J. Roberts (severe shock, off duty seven days), T. Whyto (pulled off stop), J. Moriaritv (sovero shock), Kempton (severe shock), J. Roberts,' J. Rudd, Harris, Mills (all "severe shock"), J. Crawford (injured head), Macguiro ( ), W. Turner (not been conducting since). Note.—Within tho last eighteen months ninety men have left tho service. ' Total accidents, 33. List of conductors falling off sideboard and not reported to head office: — M. Wallace, H. . Anderson, Hobbs, Neal, Toohill, Woodham, P. Connolly, G. Innis, R. Reid, A. Clark,' Gibbons, Crosse, Muir, Sutherland, Tilysird, E. Douglas, li. Fox, Murch, D. Smith, Holland. "Long, Miserable List." Mr. Davey continued that he wanted to know liow many more accidents they wero going to go on adding to this long, miserable list. It was said ill quite an easv way that only threo men had been killed in Wellington. If his clause had been carried two years ago tho cometery would not have been quite so full. Tho authorities considered' only money and recked little of human life. They had deliberately falsified the words they put into tho mouth of the Mayor —tiiat it would cost tlio people of Wellington £90,000 if the Bill, introduced by tho Minister of Public Works, became law. Mr. Davoy contradicted a statement that only 11 accidents had occurred in Christchurch during the last few years. Tho secretary of the union at Christchurch advised him that ho know positively of 30 accidents, ono fatal, - three serious, and many others serious. The union officials were confident that at least 60 accidents in Christchurch wero due to tho use of tho footboard. Statements had been made in a letter to Wellington members and to the Minister that in tho recent accident in Wellington the conductor injured did not fall from the foot-board. A passenger on tho car at tho time had forwarded him a letter showing that tho conductor had ono foot upon the bed of tho car and one on the sidestep just before ho fell. At the time ho was taking fares from a compartment in which thero were 17 people. In face of these facts the Mayor of Wellington had stated that tho conductor did not fall from the foot-board. Mr. Davey next alluded to a reported resolution of the Wellington Tramways Union, that its, members wero quite prepared to lose 'wages rather than continue working on tlio foot-board. "Broken Faith." He said that he was prepared to coneedo tho local bodies a reasonable time in which to alter the cars, but objected to tho Bill being sent to a Select Committee. li' tho Wellington City Council were given twelve months in which to do the work would they do it then? They had broken their word before and ther would do it again. Mr. Bell: llad they broken their word ? Mr. Davey: Yes, the Minister (Mr. Fraser) said the other day that they had. Mr. Hcrdman: They said they had not- i , Mr. Davoy : I profor to tako the Min-

ister's statement. It had also been stated by tlio Mayor of Wellington, ho added, that no accidents had occurred on tho Wadestown or Brooklyn lines. Ho had tlio authority of tho union for saying that the statement was false. Tho union could prove that accidents had occurred on Brooklyn and Wadestown. Tho union also denied that, as had heen stated, injured conductors had received their wages. Some of them had received half wages. A bogy had been sot up by all the tramway.authorities in New Zealand, especially in Wellington and Christchurch, to prevent tho ears being altered. Mr. Dickson: Not Auckland. Mr. Davoy admitted that Auckland was an exception. Ho hoped the Minister would put the Bill through as soon as possible. Hoar the Other Side. Tlio Hon. A. L. HERDMAN said thero was probably somo necessity for somo alteration being made ill tho law so as to prevent side stops being used t in cars, but the speech made by the member for Christchurch East was sufficient to convince him that somo inquiry should bo mado before legislation went through. At the samo timo, it must be understood that legislation must go through, and should go through this year. The honourablo member had said that tho statements mado by tho Mayor and tho City Engineer wore false. He (Mr. Herdman) happened to , know the City Engineer pretty well, and if there was ono man in Wellington whoso statements could not bo assailed as to their truth, they were those of the City Engineer. He did not propose to sit in his seat and hear aspersions cast upon a gentleman for whom everybody in tho city l entertained tha most profound respect. Ho urged again 'that there ought to bo an inquiry. Tho mere' assertion by tho honourablo member for Christchurch East, whom ho knew to bo a fair man, that tho statements by the Mayor and City Engineer wero false, was not sufficient to dispose of those statements. There was a difference of opinion, and therefore need for an inquiry. He read the letter (already published) from -the .Mayor and the City Engineer, setting forth the effects that tho putting of the centre aislo in tho Wellington cars would have in loss of seating accommodation. Mr. Davey suggested that tho removal of seats would provide standing space, and there would bo no loss of carrying capacity. Mr. Herdman went on to argue that if tho capacity of existing cars was reduced m-oro cars, would have to bo provided. There would bo then greater eost,_ in running tho system owing to tho increased number of cars. It would therefore bo a serious matter for Wellington City. No doubt tlio cars must be altered, but tho City Council must bo given timo in which to do tho work. If the city was to bo forced to do tho work in threo or four' months, places like- Miramar and Karori, which wero now paying interest and sinking fund ou the cost of laying their lines, would have no cars at all in that timo. A fair course to take would be to permit some ovidenco to bo taken. Lot- tlio matter bo dealt with in a fair and calm way without any hysteria at all. They must have regard to tho safety of the men and to the running of tho trams, but trams could not bo allowed to run in the city which' would endanger the lives of the- men employed on tliem as conductors. All ho asked was that reasonable time be given to tho city to bring about tho alteration in their system, and that somo opening bo allowed tho council to call .evidence as to what was a reasonable time. Need for Inquiry. Mr. W. H. D. BELL (Wellington Suburbs) said that, as tho representative of somo of the pooplo who would suffer most by tho stoppage of tlio cars, he wished to say something. He could not quite understand the opposition of the member for Christchurch East to any sort of an inquiry. Possibly Mr. Davey objected to an extension of timo. Personally, - ho would not support an -extension of ,timo to twelve months. Ho was jub*t as anxious as the member for Christchurch East to . have all the trams in the- Wellington streets absolutely safe, but there was a- point at which public convenience outweighed tho immediate demand for tho safety of . the cars. The risk run by the conductors must be weighed against the public convenience, and ho did think the House would require to know —certainly ho wanted to know—what was a reasonable time within which to require tho council to convert their cars. It might- be. that if tho committee sat, the men might be able to show in evidence that tho cars were so dangerous that considerations of safety would have to outweigh all considerations of public convenience. Mr. Fisher: They have had two years already. Mr. Boll: "That is so." The -member for Christehnreh East had, lio continued. objected to delay, but under tho Bill, as it- was at present, the council w;ere allowed until March 1, 1914, in which to convert t-hoir cars, and lie. (Mr. Boll) could not see that it was unreasonable for members to ask for two or throe days in which evidenco could bo taken before a. committee. Ho was very much against delay. He wanted to see the trams mado safe, and he was not prepared to give tlio City Council any timo longer than was necessary to convert the cars. If the tramway men would show that tho trams wero so dangerous that no time should bo allowed, then he would support the men in the demand that no timo should bo allowed. Ho would vote for tho second reading of tho Bill, but/he did not think it was fair to ask any member-of tho House to support tlio clause of tho Bill, fixing the date, in Committeo without, the information necessary to enable him to vote intelligently. For and Against. Mr. C. E. STATHAM (Duncdin Central) commended Mr. Davey for his zeal in tho interests of tho tramway conductors. He said that ho did not doubt that all members of the House would put human life liefore all other considerations. The Bill was mainly directed against tho Wellington City Council, but it was general in its application, and it might work injustice in other centres. He would support tlio second . reading of the Bill, but ho hoped that before it came to its second reading tho House would agree to let the Bill go to a committee. Mr. J. S. DICKSON (Parnell) said that in his opinion thero would bo no need to set up a committee to tako evidence. If tho Minister of Public Works would produce his file that he had from, the last Tramway Conference in 1911, it would provide all the c-xpprt knowledge that could possibly be obtained. Mr. J. H. BRADNEY (Auckland West) said that in view of tho list read by tho member for Christchurch East, tho duty of tho House was plain—to put tho Bill through and to act upon it. The conduct of the Wellington tramway service was such as to- show that tlio people did not always get the best results from owning thoir own conveyances. If the cars belonged to a private concern the regrettable state of affairs obtaining in Wellington would not exist. Mr. C. A. WILKINSON (Egmont) said that while all recognised that human life was tho paramount consideration, yet he did not think it would bo wiso to pass this hasty rush legislation without some inquiry. If they did rush the Bill through, a great deal ol l inconvenience would be put upon tlio citizens of Wellington, and the House might do something for which it would bo sorry. Mr, G. WITTY (Riccarton) did not agree that it would be hasty to put the Hill through. Two years ago tho Wellington City Council bad had thoir warning when the Davey clause was carried on the voices. Ho was in favour of doing away, with gida-stops alto-,

gsthcr, and ho hoped tho Bill would not be sent to a committee. If four months ivas not a long enough period, then a longer time could be allowed. Some cities might need a longer time than others. Mr. H. G. ELL (Christclmrch North) opposed the sending of the Bill to a committee, because, as ho said, it would lead to tho granting of extensions of timo and further delay. The Public Works Department had already in its possession all tho information which the committee could possibly collect. He asked the Minister whether ho concurred in the proposal to send tho Bill to a committee. PrtOmbors and Side-Steps. Mr, W. A. VEITCH (Wonganui) said that ho strongly supported tho Bill, but ho opposed the proposal to refer tho Bill to a committee, but would concur in granting six months instead of four months in which to ; con vert tho cars. Sir J. Ward Explains. SIR J. "\\ ARD (Leader of tho Opposition) said that if tho resolution which lie had proposed a few days ago had been carried tho Government would not have been in "such a mess." Mr. Eraser: What was it? A selfglorification resolution ? Sir Joseph Ward went on to remark that tho Minister had brought down a Bill which was impracticable and would 'nob work. ' Mr. Eraser: Yes, it will. Sir Joseph Ward said that if tho Bill were carried a serious injustice would bo done to local bodies in other parts of tho Dominion than Wellington. • Mr. Herdman: Your resolution would have stopped tho cars at once. Sir Joseph Ward: Ifc would have done nothing of tho kind. Mr. Herdman; Read it. Sir Joseph_ Ward': "That in tho opinion of this House human life is of greater importance than tho convonionco of the Wellington City Corporation, and that immediate steps shall bo taken to stop the use of tram-cars that arc dangerous to human life." Mr. Herdman: Immediate stops I Sir Joseph Ward: Isn't that an instruction from the House? ■ Mr. Herdman: Yes. , Sir Joseph Ward: Would it not mean legislation i 1 Does tho Attornoy-Gene-ral, with his knowledge of law, say I am wrong? Mr. Herdman: Yes; to carry out that resolution: wo should' have- had to introduce legislation to stop tho cars at once. Sir Joseph Ward dissented from this viow. He proposed that there should be added to the operative clause in the Bill a provision that, it should be left to the Minister of Public Works to issue a. certificate when tho'cars had been altered to his Satisfaction. ■ Mr. Herries: Will the honourable member for Christclmrch East agree to that? Mr. Davey: I won't agree to anything of the kind. Sir Joseph Ward said that ho .did not wish to deprive the honourable gen* tleman of the credit to which, he was entitled, but lie (Sir Joseph Ward) had as .much right as a.ny member to a say in'this matter. Mr. Davey: I don't understand whatyou aro talking about.' I would not agroo to the Minister having solo power to deal with the matter. Sir Joseph Ward: I do iiot suggest that. It was most distressful, he added, that a man could not get up in tho House to srfeak about anything without this wrcjtched party coming into it. | ' ■ Mr. Fraser (looking across tho House): Yes, I should think, so, 'a wretched party! ....'. Sir Joseph Ward explained as ho went on that his proposal to .empower tho Minister to- issuer certificates - was:;intended to protect cars of peculiar, bpt not dangerous, type, that woro used in some parts of the Dominion. He said that he had only spoken- from- a desire to make a helpful suggestion to the Minister of Public Works. Mr. Eraser: What is it? Sir Joseph Ward- replied that ho had explained his proposal several l times. Mr. Davey said that he had not attempted tp take all .the credit in connection with the proposal in the Bill, and was sorry t'hat Sir Joseph Ward had accused him of doing so. In Favour, or Not? -. The Hon. W. H. HERRIES said lie must confess —it might bo because ho was rather dense —that- ho could not understand the Leader of t-he Opposition. Ono proposal ho had understood that honourable gentleman to mako was that these cars should bo converted to tho satisfaction of the Minister of Publio Works. Ho (Mr. Herries) asked the member for Christclmrch East whether lie would accept that, and the member for Christclmrch East said he would not accept it. The Leader of the Opposition sec-mcd to have been boxing tho compass right round. Sir Joseph Ward had said that if his motion had been carried the Bill would not have been necessary. ' Sir Joseph Ward: It; would not havo been framed on the lilies it- is. \ou can't put it into operation as it is. Mr. Herries said all the honourable gentleman's arguments had been in favour of tho Bill, and yet he had condemned it by boll, book, and candle.If tho honourable gentleman's motion had been carried, tho Minister could havo gone to the City Council the next morning and stopped all tho cars un* converted, and then could havo got a. Validation Bill through the House. The honourable gentleman said his motion would have required legislation, and what tho Minister liad done was to bring in a Bill. Still the Leader of tho Opposition was-not satisfied. What the Leader of the Opposition did not say was whether he was in favour of tho Bill or not. Ho had suggested that the Opposition might stonewall the Bill. When the Leader of tho Opposition snoko it was.fair to expect a declaration of 'what tho Opposition proposed to do about the Bill. That declaration had not been given. Reduced Speeds. Mr. A. 11. HINDMARSH (Wellington South) said that he did not see that the question of wiint the alteration of the cars would cost did not ' reallv affect the main question.- Ho admitted qiiite readily that ono human life was worth all tho cars in Wellington. But lie saw 110 reason why the Bilt should not bo . sufficiently inquired into by a committee seeing that it was not to come into operation before Starch next. -He did not see why the Houso should not fix some rule as to speed for these dangerous cars in tho more crowded streeti of the cit-v. This could bo investigated by'the committee. He hoped tho Bill would pass, and lie recognised that there would be no danger in referring it to a committee. It had been said that the cars could all be converted in a shorter time if the work wore done by private firms instead of in tho department's own shops, but lie believed thero were insuperable difficulties in the way of letting out tho work. AVhilo the dangerous ears were running lie would be ill favour of the House insisting upon tho dangerous cars being run at slower speeds. If tho committee sat it could take,evidence as to the speeds :il which the cars ought to be run. Alro the committee could take evidence as to the timo in which it would take in reconstruct the ears, and the committee could then better decide what lime should be allowed. Mr \ E GLOVER (Auckland COll- - ral),'and Mr. J. PAYNE (Grey Lynn) carried oil the debate. THE MINISTER IN REPLY. MATTER. FOR THE HOUSE. Tho Hon. W> FRASER, in replying,

said that reference had been made during tho debate to an assumption that lie was going to refer tho Bill to a committee, I|o was not going to do anything of the kind. Nevertheless, he was of tin* same opinion noiv as he had been 011 Wednesday last that a committoo should liavo been set up, not to consider tho question of whether tho cars should ho altered or not, but to consider what was tho best way to give practical effect to tho wish of members of the House. If tho committee had been. set up Inst Wednesday, as he, had suggested, it could have reported by this time. He had been approached and asked if ho would move to refer the Bill to a committee, but he had said that he would not do so, in view of tho action that the House had taken. Tho House had come to n conclusion last Wednesday that tho work of altering the cars should prooced without further delay. Still, as ho had said, .his opinion was that a committee would liavd facilitated the progress of tho Bill, instead of delaying it. The matter was 0110 for tho House. He was not going to move to refer tho Bill to a committee, No agreoment had ever been made between tho Wellington Corporation and himself. Messrs. Richardson and Cablo bad told him twelve mouths ago that they could alter one car a, month. When he said that this was not enough, they said that they would push on the Work as rapidly as possible. Tho Breach of Faith. His answer to tho member lor Christchurch East. tlie other day, when Mr. Davey.asked him if tho city authorities had Kept faith, and he said that they had not, was given for the reason tliat they had admitted to him since that they could alter three palace cars a month, although they were twice as difficult .to convort as other cars. Another thing was that tits city tramway authorities had told him the other day, as they had told him twelvo,. months ago, that they lind not formulated a satisfactory scheme for the conversion ol palace cars. Ho wa3 glad that the House was in a more reasonable mood' than on Wednesday last. On tlio occasion all the cry was "alter the cars at once." That was a hysterical way of dealing with the matter, ' Sir J. Ward's Resolution. The effect of the resolution moved by tho momber for Awarua, the Minister continued, was that the cars wef-s to be immediately altered or immediately stopped. Of course, they could trot have been immediately altered, and it would have meant that they must be immediately stopped. Yet that member had the assurance to get up and say that lie (the Minister) was responsible for tho present position. It was the member tor Awarua who was responsible for tho position. If the Bill was impracticable, Sir Joseph Ward was responsible. Had lie allowed his (the Minister's) motion .to bo carried, s committee could have considered tho question of tho best means of altering the cars and tho question of tho time to bo allowed for doing it. Howveer, that' had not been done. Tho House on Wednesday would talk of nothing but immediate alteration of these cars.' Tho Time-limit. The Minister said that ho had fixed four months as tho limit under the Bill because some members seemed to think tliat four months would suffice for Jke work. In his opinion it was not practicable to alter theso cars .within four months, but 'he did; Hot want the House to go upon his information. Ho wanted members to get information at firsthand from practical meii before a committee. If it wero proposed, in Committee of the House, that tho time for altering the cars should bo, extended to soino reasonable date, ho would not oppose that because he thought it was absolutely "necessary. Ho. said, most emphatically, that the wisest thing the Ho'uso could do would bo to let the Bill go before a committee if only for a coujilo of days. Tramway people from Christclnircli and Dunedin wero hero, and tho Wellington people could bo got any time to supply the information the, committee wanted. The Building Difficulty* It had been said that tho city could go on building new cars, but. lie was assured that in the. sheds available it was impossible to go on building new cars while old ears were being reconstructed. Mr. Witty: Can't they get tho work done outside P Mr. Eraser: I don't know. .That is tho sort of thing you could have found out from a committee. If his motion had bee:U adopted last Wednesday tho committee would probably have reported by ,t : liis time. Sir Joseph Ward: Wlia't do you pro-> pose to do? / Mr. Fraser: I a.ui going to-move tho second reading of tho Bill. That is what I proisoso to do. ' Sir Joseph Ward had madp a mistake last Wednesday when ho said in effect that tho eats should be put right immediately. On Friday he modified liis opinion, and said "a reasonable time." If Sir Joseph Ward's motion had been carried on Wednesday he would have brought down a Bill to provide that from the date of ■ its passing no ear without a passage right through could be run. under lus present Bill he had allowed four months. He knew this was too little, but the committee could alter it. Then the Leader of the Opposition had calmly thrown the responsibility upon him becanso lie had brought down a Bill which was alleged to be impracticable. ■Of course, he (Mr. Eraser) did not admit it was impracticable. Sir Joseph Ward: I should imagine tho responsibility was yours. Mr. Fraser: I am carrying out tho instructions of tho House. Sir Joseph Ward's Petulance. Sir Josfph Ward: The Bouso carried no resolution. Mr. Fraser: The honourable gentleman's vanity was injured, and he showed it so obviously on Wednesday. The Leader of the Opposition liad, lie continued, had to put up his men to obstruct tho 1 motion a± the last moment to prevent its being carried. The ruse was too ! palpable. The honourable gentleman had manifested an amount <if petular.ee against the member for Christclnircli East which was quite ridiculous.! Now tho honourable gentleman sa]d calmly tliat he (Mr. Fraser) was to blame for the whole thing. Tjio honourable ■ gentleman might beli?vc this, but ho was not going to convince the House and the country tliat it was so. The Leader of the' Opposition had accused him of trying to import party into the business. but ihe jierson who. had brought ' party into! it was the Leader of the Opposition.'; Ho hoped that no vuch : question as that, of party would arise : when the Tiiuso was finally dealing ivith the Bill. (Whether the Bill went before a cominittee' or iiofc, he hoped members wmlrl come wepnred with amendments which would help to make it a nractkhl measure. Ho wanted to see the dargerous cars stopped,'but he did not want to see such restrictions imposed as would make it impossible for this to| he done. He was soing right on \vi:b the Bills and he relocated flint he wnild not move' to refer the Bill to a canmittep in view of the reception given by the House to his proposal last feek. The Bill (vas read a second timo on the voices.