PRIME MINISTER REPLIES.

Dominion, Volume 7, Issue 1880, 14 October 1913, Page 4

PRIME MINISTER REPLIES.

WILL NOT BE IMPOSED UPON.

"LIBERALS" AND "LABOURITES."

The Hon. W. F. Massey said the Leader of the Opposition had just stated that there had been no obstruction to the Land Bill, and,that ho personally did' not intend to obstruct the Bill: He (Mr. Massey) was very glad to liavo that assurance, but it would bo very difficult to convince members on his sido of the House and the people of the country that on Saturday there had not been deliberate obstruction to the Land Bill. Ho had heard members of the other sido of tho House say that obstruction would -go on until tho Land Bill ' was" dropped, or until a dissolution took place. ■ Mr. Payne: That camo from tho Labour party. ' Sir Joseph Ward: It didn't come from , the Liberal party. Mr. Massey: It is very hard to say what comes from the Labour party and what comes from the Liberal party. It seems to me tlie t v are both together obstructing this Bill. There had, lie continued, been a legitimate difference of opinion on Saturday morning on Clause 25. After the clauso moved by tho member for Thames had been disposed of, honourable members asked what lie (Mr. Massey) proposed to do. He said that he proposed to recommit the Bill "and have a. clauso drafted which : would satisfy both sides of tho House.. The Leader of the Opposition accepted that, and advised his friends to Jet the clause go. But when that advice had been given another difficulty cro'pped up, as to how much_ further the Committee should go with tho Claiiso' 25 had been the whole of tho business for tho night, and tihe Loader of tho Opposition liad said that he should be satisfied with tho progress made—only two clauses. ■ . Sir Joseph Ward: Wo had dono good work before. . ' . Mr. Massey said in all the Committeo had passed 11 unimportant clauses. The Committee had. been, sitting from 7.30 p.m. until 5 a.m., and had got through nothing but machinery clauses. Was that a fair day's work? Would tho • honourable gentleman have been satisfied with it if he had been Leader of tho House? The proposal to accept it as a sufficient day's work was unreasonable. That Troublesomo "Tail." If tho honourable gentlemen had accepted his proposal to go down to Clause 32—and there was nothing contentious in the other _ clauses —the House could then have adjourned. Tho difficulty was that there wero certain members on tho other side _ of the House, who had made up their minds that they wero going to rum' the Honse. Ho did not include tho Leader of tho Opposition among these, becauso.he had never been unreasonable. Ho (Mr. Massey) could tell' those honourable gentlemen that ho was going to run the business of the Houso so long as he had a majority bohind him. He was not unreasonable, but ho would not bo imposed upon. Ho had certain duties to perform, and lie was prepared to do his duty and take the consequences, whatever they might bo. He was not threatening, but merely stating clearly by what lie proposed to stand. Ho was willing to moot the Leader of tho Opposition in regard to the proposal ho had made. Ho was glad to hear from that honourable gentleman that the Opposition wero not obstructing tho Land Bill. He himself had como to a different conclusion. Let the Committee go on until 5.30 p.m., and at,7.30 p.m. he would tell tho honourable gentlemen what he proposed to do. Sir Joseph Ward denied that tho Opposition had been obstructing th« Land Bill. The on Clauso 25 had been perfectly legitimate. Tho whole trouble had arisen over a parti' cular proposal contained in Clauso 25, and a good deal of feeling had been exhibited in connection with it. Upon this clauso distinct obstruction had taken place, but that was not obstruction to tho Land Bill. No Understanding. There had been no understanding with members of tho Labour Party so far'as tho Land Bill was concerned, lie certainly had not discussed it with any of them, and no other member of his party had had any authority to discuss it with them. Tho suggestion that thero was an arrangement between tho Labour Party and the Liberal Party was incorrect. Mr. Guthrie: Was any member of tho

Labour Party at your caucus this morning? Sir Joseph Ward: Thero was no caucus this morning. Mr. Guthrie: Well, at your meeting this morning? Sir Joseph Ward: There was no member of the Labour Party at the'meeting of tile Liberal Party this'morning. No member of the Labour Party was present, and no member of tho Labour Party was asked to be present. lie added that lift would accept the compromise suggested by tho Prime Minister, and lie hoped that at 7.30 p.m. the Primo Minister would bo able to tell the House that he would not require members to sit after midnight. And then tho Prime Minister ought to be able to get tho Bill through at another sitting. He hoped that at 7.30 p.m , the Primo Minister would not let tho question of tho duration of tho sitting stand open, and, as far as he (Sir Joseph Ward) could, ho would allow tho Government to do reasonable work. Another "Leader." Mr. J. ltobertson rose, and said something about the Labour Party, which was drowned in cries of "Sit down," and "This is the Leader of tho Labour Party." Mr. A. S. Malcolm (Chairman of Committees) said it was the universal practice in Parliament to allow the leaders of tho opposing parties to claim certain indulgences in the way of speaking, but ho could not oxteud the privilege to everybody. Mr. Payne: There are three parties in the House now? Mr. ltobertson did not continue to speak. Mr. Massey: I am glad the honourable gentleman has accepted my proposal, and if reasonable progress is made, I shall not be unreasonable at 7.30 p.m. The Obstruction Maintained. The Committee went on ' to discuss Clause 25. Mr. J. Robertson said the obstruction on tho part of tho Labour Party to tho clauso was all based on an objection to the principle of tho clause. He added that thero was no arrangement between the Labour Party and the Liberal Party to obstruct the Bill. He referred to tho fact that the member for Ohinemuri had a section of tho Hauraki lands, and, notwithstanding tho fact that he was a freeholder, this honourable member had not joined in the agitation for the freehold, but had applied for a sixty-six years' lease. This, ho (Mr. Robertson) accepted as evidence that the sixty-six years' lease was a satisfactory tenure. Aftor a number of Oppositionists had spoken, Tho Primo Minister said that ho had understood that some reasonable attempt was to be mado to make progress on tho Bill. So far ho had not seen any indication of it. The last speech, in particular, had heen simply a repetition fifty times during the progress of tho debate. ' To Defino "Minerals." The Hon. J. A. Millar said that ho wanted to ask the Primo Ministor what, the term "minerals" included. He intended to ask tho Minister to accept a new clauso defining minerals. He did not want to seo another Brighton case. If they were going to ■ resorvo the minerals to tho Crown, let them bo reserved absolutely. If they were going to givo them away, let them be given away. Another thing ho wanted to know was, did not this clauso give tho land at the original value? Mr. Mnssey: No. Mr. Millar said that it seemed to him to go pretty close to it. The Prime Minister said that tho clauso gave tho right to acquire tho freehold not at tho original value, but at the present value, ascertained by an actuarial calculation,, in the same way as was enacted last year in regard to areas hold under renewable lease. He was inclined to think that tho present definition of minerals was defective. Ho did not understand why coal was loft out. It might not, be a mineral, inasmuch as it was a vegetable product, but it should be includod in tho list of minerals reserved. He was prepared to consider any clauso that tho lion, gentleman might bring along. As a fact, ho had, given instructions to tho law draftsman to draft a clauso which would make it absolutely clear that all the minerals would bo reserved to tho> State, and that all miners' rights would bo reserved to miners. At the same time, ho would be glad to consider any clause submitted by the hon. 'gentleman. Speaking a littlo later, the Prime Minister said that lie had already expressed tho opinion that an ungenerous attack had been made upon Mr. T. AV. Rhodes. His attention had now been called to the fact that Mr. Rhodes had stated in the House, and ft had been recorded in Hansard, that ho was the occupier of one of these Hauraki occupation leases. It could not bo said that ho had hidden the fact. : Not only had Mr. Rhodes mentioned the fact at a deputation, but he-had mentioned it in tho Houso, and it was actually recorded, in Hansard. Other Mining Districts. In reply to Mr. Colvin, the, Primo Minister said ho had -not • sufficient knowledge of mining areas in tho Buller district to say whether tho mining industry and the pastoral industries could go hand in hand in that district. Ho'knew the Hauraki lands, and he was sure that in that district the two industries could go on together. But ho would be visiting tho West Coast on January 10 or thereabouts if tho session was ovor by that time—(laughter)—and'ho would then perhaps be able to seo for himself whether it would be possible to allow settlers on mining lands on tho West Coast to have tho freehold tenure. If this could be done without hampering tho mining industry ho would consider the possibility of giving thoni tho samo kind of tenure as it was proposed to apply to tho Hauraki lands. In reply to other questions, ho quoted a paragraph in tho report of tlie Commissioner of Crown Lands at Auckland to tho effect that it appeared to be impossible to settle tho land on tho present tenure, and that unless it were settled shortly on some satisfactory tenure it would be overrun with noxious weeds. Clause IS 1 * Passed. The discussion went on very much as it had for the previous 20 hours of sitting. It was suggested by ' several speakers that the rights of tho State in respect of such minerals as oil and coal were not being adequately protected by tho clause. This was dono by several speakers in spite of the fact "that tho Prime Minister had promised to givfe consideration to a clauso to be drafted by tho Hon. J. A. Millar to define minerals for tho purpososof tho clauso, with tho especial object of including coal as a mineral. Generally members of tho "Liberal" section of tho Opposition showed no disposition to keep silence and allow a vote to be taken, and finally Mr. P. C. Webb said ho and his Labour friends considered it their duty to obstruct tho Land Bill at every conceivablo point, and especially to- obstruct Clause 25. In tho end, however, the Committee went to a division on tho clause at 5.17 p.m. Tho clause was carried by 34 j votes to 25 7 The Division List. Following was the division list: — Ayes (34): Allen, Anderson, Bollard (2), Bradney, liuick, Campbell, Coates, Dickson, Escott, Fisher, Fraser, Guthrie, Harris, Herdman, Homos, Hine, Leo, Marnier, Massey. Nosworthy,' Okev, Pornare, Rhodes (2), Reed, Scott, F. H. Smith, Stathain, Sykos. G. M. Thomson, Wilkinson, Wilson, Young. Noes (25): Buddo, Clark, Colvin, Craigie, Dickie, Ell, Forbes, Glover, Plaiian, Hindmarsh, Laurenson, MacDonald, Millar, A. K. Nowman, Ngata,

Parata, Payne, Poland, Robertson, Seddon, Sidey, Ward, Webb, Wilford, Witty. Pairs. Ayes: Pearco, Hunter, 8011, Buchanan. Noes: To Rangihiroa, Brown, M'Callum, Myers. What Mr. Witty Proposed, Sir Joseph Ward asked for ail explanation of Clauso 2G, permitting the lessees of soiuo perpct/ual leaso lands and tho holders of tho leases of certain small grazing runs to acquire tho freehold. The Hon. W. F. Massey said that'the perpetual leaso part of tho clause referred to, settlers on a class of small sections who had found it difficult to keep on their lands. Tho part of it affecting small grazing runs did not aiieet any lessees or endowment land, and ho.thought tho lessees of tho small grazing runs referred to, who had had a fairly hard time, were entitled to the freehold as much as were other Crown tenants. Mr. G. Witty moved an amendment to allow all lessees of privately-owned land to acquiro tho freehold. (Tho proposal was received with derisive laughter.) M.r. Massey (laughing): Why, that would include the honourable gentleman's farm. Ho went oil to raiso a point of order. It was that tho amendment was not relevant to tlio Bill, in that the Bill had nothing to do with privately-owned land, but only with Crown land. ( Mr. Malcolm said he had no hosita : tion in ruling that the amendment was not germano to the clause, and was therefore out of order. Whereupon Mr. Witty moved that progress bo reported in order that Mr. Speaker's ruling bo taken on the point. This motion was not opposed by tho Government, and progress was reported accordingly. Mr. Speaker upheld the Chairman of Committee's ruling that the amendment could not bo inserted in Clause 2G, which dealt wholly with Crown lands. If tlio amendment could bo moved anywhere in the Bill it would havo to be moved at the end as a now clause, and it would require a lot of machinery clauses to make it workable. Scopo of the Clause. In Committee again, Tho Prime Minister explained in reply to tho Leader of tho Opposition that tho total area affected by the clause, exclusivo of the small grazing runs, was'6o9s acres. With regard to tlio grazing runs he could not say exactly how many lessees or what area would bo affected by the clauso. He did not believe the area was considerable. He oniDhasised tho fact that the clauso did not apply to endowment lands. The Hon. D. Buddo objected to that portion of .tlio clauso referring to small grazing runs on-the ground that theso lands would, if the tenure of them wero alt<rcd, be added to the national endowment. To tho first part of tlio clauso, referring to tho perpetual-leaso settlors, lie did not object, and ho asked that tho clauso ho put in two sections. j No objection was offered to this, and the first portion was put at once. Tho loaseholdors called a division, but tho portion of tho clauso was carried by 40 votes to 18. Mr. Malcolm then put the second section of tho clause. Limitation of Aroa. Mr. H. G. Ell asked whether any of the grazing-runs affected by the clauso wcro largo enough for subdivision. Tho Hon. W. F. Massey said that tho grazing-runs wcro the smallest of tho small grazing-runs, and tho clauso did not apply to any of an area larger than that allowed by tho limitation clauses of the Act. Tho tenants of theso runs really hud a grievance, for tho intention of tho Act under which they were given their leases was to give tho tenants a perpetual right of renewal, but a'decision of tho Supremo Court had upset this. Tho areas were not sufficient for subdivision, .and ho thought the should havo the freehold. Mr. Forbes and Mr. Witty were not sure that the limitation of area clauses of the principal Act would, apply to prevent tho lessees acquiring holdings in excess of tho area and tne value prescribed by tlioso clauses. The Prime Minister thought that this was adequately guarded against, but if it should prove to be necessary ho would have another safeguarding proviso inserted in'the clauso. Mr. J. Robertson suggested that there was no adequate provision again<t reaggregation of village settlements. Mr. Massey: I don't intend to alio.w that. > ' Mr. G. Witty urged that it should bo made obligatory upon a man who desired to increase his holding to apply for permission to tho Land Board. The Hon. W. F. Massey said lie thought this was rather too drasth a proposal to begin with. Presently, it the provision in this Bill did not work out satisfactorily, although ho beiiaved it would, ho would make further provision against aggregation. It nunht yet bo necessary to provide that before any man could add to his holding ho would havo to satisfy some competent, tribunal —and he was not sure that any Land Board in this country was a competent tribunal —that the aggregation was not against tho public interest. Landlord and Tenant. Mr. G. Laurenson protested against tho clauso on the general ground iliat ho was opposed to the alienation of State lands, and protested that ; n New Zealand, with tlie lesson of tlio damnable land system of .England as an rxamplo, it was stili proposed to pcrpetuato it here. The Hon. W. F. Massey said he believed tlio honourable gentleman was sincere in his beliefs, and ho agreed with him that the land system of Engiaud was damnable. It was because he (Mr. Massey) recognised tho system of England was damnable that ho was auxxus to put his Bill on tho Statute Pook. He wanted to seo New Zealand establish, not the present land system of England, but tlio system which exii-ted in England 200 or 300 years ago. Ho was just as strongly opposed to the system of landlord and tenant as tho member for Lyttolton was, and ono reason for his opposition was that liis ov n people had come to New Zealand in' 1562 becauso they could not obtain a freehold section in tho land of their birth. Ho wanted to see every man who went on to the land in this country have aii opportunity of acquiring the fee-simple. Tho Government might make mistakes, but tho Bill was introduced with a genuine desiro to prevent anything in the nature of a system of landlord and tenant coming into operation here. Mr. J. A. Hanan aisked the Primo Minister to put a clauso in the Bill to movent tenants acquiring tlio freehold from sub-letting under certain conditions. More Negotiations. Tlio discussion went on until shortly beforo the supper adjournment, when Sir Joseph Ward asked the Prime Minister to malto a statement as to how far ho proposed to go. . The Hon. W. F. Massoy said that when ho had- made a promise to declare his intent-ions as to how far ho would proceed with tho Bill he had been given to understand by implication that somo progress would bn made. ■ Ho could not say now tljat an.v progress had been imule. They had passed one clause before 5.30 p.m., and half a clauoo in the two hours sinco 7.30. He did not object tn honourable members voting against the clauso or discussing it. What ho di-.l object to was obstruction. Mr. Forbes: There are 000,000 acres going. Mr. Massey: That is not so, Tlio honourable momber has rppoatod that

statement, and it is not correct. Ho ventured to say, he continued, that they wcro not taking more than 10 per cent, of tho total amount. Ho had been unable to get all the information ho wanted at short notico, but ho was quite prepared to supply tlio House with any information of which he was in possession. He was not inclined to be unreasonable; he wanted to soo members of tho House get a fair amount of sleep, but ho wanted to seo somo business done. Ho could not say he was going to adjourn at 12 o'clock, because ho know what would happen if he did so. Mr. Witty: You will get a fair run. Mr. Massey: Very well ; I will give members a fair run, a fair run homd. He was not prepared to say how many clauses ho would take, but lie would make a statement after tho adjournment. Ho would tell tho llouso that he would not take any other business until tho Land Bill hail passed through Committee. Mr. Witty: Then you are going to stay in Committee? Mr. Massoy: I don't say that. Tho "Early Hours." Sir Joseph Ward said ho objected on principle to going on with important work in tho early hours of tho morning. Ho had no objection to going on with tho Bill, but if there was any attempt to loreo vue Bill upon the House in the early hours of tho morning he did not propose to help the honourable gentleman. "Wo are not trying to stop your Bill," lie concluded. Mr. Herrios: Yes, you are. Sir Joseph Ward: 1 am very much obliged td tho honourable gentleman. Mr. Herries: I don't say you, but some of your party are. ■ Mr. Massey said ho objected l to working in tho early hours of the morning as much as anybody, but if members would not work in tlio early hours of tho night, what was to bo done? If in the early afternoon and night members would do nothing but ■talk, talk, talk, instead of considering clauses or taking divisions on them, what was to be done?, ■Mr. Payno: Withdraw tho Bill. A Proposal Made, - At 10 o'clock Mr. Massey said ho liad been looking through the Bill, and there was practically nothing contentious until after Clauso 40. Thoro wero no policy proposals in those clauses. If Clause 40 was passed lie would bo inclined to admit that they had dono enough for one night. That would make it possible to finish the Bill in ono day. , Sir Joseph _ Ward suggested) that the Primo Minister's proposal meant sitting until about 5 or G o'clock tomorrow morning. Mr. Massey: Nothing'of tho kind. I havo seen a dozen clauses as important as those go through in an hour. Sir Joseph Ward said that if the honourable gentleman got his Bill through he (Sir Joseph Ward) would congratulate him. Mr. Massey said the honourable gentleman would find that as soon as they disposed of Clause ; 26, and ho submitted they wero ready for a division, there would be no difficulty. Sir Joseph Ward 6aid ho did not think tho Minister would get to clauso 40. Ho might just as well think of closing down tho session at the end of the week. Mr. Massoy said that ovory member of tho House had made up his mind how to voto on every clauso of the Bill, and all tlio talk that was likely to bo indulged in would not influence a single vote. Why the necessity for all the talk? Ho was not opposed to discussion, and ho would not stand out against any reasonable amendment. Tho Obstruction Goes on. The proposal did l not servo to expedite matters, for tho dreary obstruction went on. It did- not appear to bo so well sustained as on Saturday, howover, and it was 'confined to the Labour members, and to tho leaseholders. Two Clausos In Two Days. At 10.20 p.m. a division was taken on the second section of tlio clause, and it was carrietl by 36 votes to 24. On tho question that clauso 26 be a clause of tho Bill, Mr. J. Robertson moved an amendment to add to tho clauso a proviso that in village settlement lands no person should bo permitted to acquire more than tho maximum area of this land permitted under tho Land Act of 1903. The Hon. W. F. Massey accepted the amendment, which was carried on tho voices. In reply to Mr. Hanan's insistence upon tho desirability of prohibiting a privato holder from sub-letting or leasing his holding, Mr. Massey said it was impossible to make a hard and fast rulo. Ho was not in favour of privato landlords, but there wore occasions when men might need to lease their land, as, for instance, when tlioy 'wera aged and wished to retire, or wiien.they deSired to visit tlio land of their birth. To introduce such a clause as Mr. Hanan suggested might do mofo harm than good at present. ■ Some timo in tho future, it abuses developed in the system of leasing land privately, something might havo to be dono to'regulate it. At 11 p.m. a division was taken on the clause, and it was retained by 36 votes to 21. \ Town Planning. Clause 27 related to town planning. Ono amendment the Prime Minister accepted. It wa-s to increaso the limit of frontage (except in special cases) in all now sub-divisions for residential purposes from 33ft. to 40ft. The clauso provided also that the roads should bo laid off as nearly as possible at'right angles. Dr. Newman suggested that provision should bo mado that tho corners should be rounded to lessen tho dangers of fast motor traffic. The Prime Minister said that if ho could arrango for this under tho Bill lie would do so. Tho clauso was agreed to on the voices. Clauses 28, 29, 30, 31, and 32 went on tho voices after very littlo discussion, six clauses in half an hour. In fivo miuutes more Clauso 38 had been passed. All the intervening clauses had been merely machinery amendments in the law. Clauso 39 took rather a longer time, however. It provided for the sale of settlement land, the principal new point in. the clause being that the sales aro to be by auction under certain circumstances. Tho Primo Minister explained that the proposal was not to offer a|l settlement lands at auction, but only such settlement lands as wero not selected at the ballot. The section empowered the Minister to authorise. tho salo at auction of only tlioso sections not applied for at tho ballot. A Concession to Buyers. Tlio Primo Minister readily agreed to a suggestion that in the caso of lands sold by auction under the authority of tho clause purchasers should bo permitted to pay by instalments. Mr. Buddo contended that people who wero going to tako up land that nobody olso wanted should bo granted liberal terms. It should be enough, ho said, if they paid ten per cent, of tho purchase money per annum. Tho Prims Minister said that ho was going to bo even more liberal, and would only require tenants to pay five per cent, of tho purchase price per annum. He moved to insert a new subclause providing that land bought under the clause should be paid for in twenty payments extending over nineteen years. This , was agreed to. ■ Clause 40, dealing with the disposal of timber on Crown lands, was struck out oil tho motion of the Prime Minis- ■ tor. Ho stated that ho proposed to move to insert a now clauso. Progress was then reported, and tho 1 House roso at midnight.