NATIVE LANDS.

Dominion, Volume 7, Issue 1878, 11 October 1913, Page 6

NATIVE LANDS.

GOVERNMENT PROPOSALS,

FACILITATING SETTLEMENT.

1 NO COMPULSORY ACQUISITION. ' The Nativo Land Bill was introduced 'By Governor's Message. I Mr. E. P. Lee (Uainaru) .was ap-j-pointed Chairman of . Committees ; for tho day. ' I The Hon.'. A.. T. NGATA (Eastern Maori) asked whether a. ti'anslation of j tho Bill had been prepared for tho beneifit of the Natives now in Wellington, iond also whether the Minister would 'undortako not to send the Bill to the jNativo Affairs' Committee until next iiweek at; the earliest, so- that those jdesiring to do so might have ah. opportunity of tendering, evidence. A conjforento of Maoris was then sitting in .[Wellington, and those attending it were \onxious to spend as much time upon tho lOßiil as tho'.Minister would let them. ,

The Han. W." H:"HERMES (Native said that he proposed to tako ;the second reading pro forma, but did jiiot to take the Bill in tho cNativo Affairs Committeo for about a 'fortnight. As far as lie knew one of the Bill had already been made. There had since been.. some minor alterations, but corrected' translation copies of the Bill "would' bo available on the morrow. The Bill was not a new one, but an amendment of tho ;iAct of 1909. One of the principal alterations related to the constitution of J'tho Maori Land Board. It was proposed [that in cach district there should bo a Jjudgo or and that these officials should constitute the Maori Land 'Board. Tlio present Maori Land Boards j,would be abolished."' He had found it (impossible to abolish theso bodies altogether, .although a largely expressed wish to that effect had come from Iho iiNativos when ho was travelling round, jfle thought honourable members would •gree with him that it was providing (a better constitution for the Maori ■Land Boards to make them consist of the Judge of the district and the regis■trar.

xrar. ~ Partitioning Lands. He went on to Btato that tho Act enabled a Judge, if he thought proper, to report to the Native Minister that a block should bo partitioned. Tho Native Minister, if ho.thought proper,! could instruct the Maori Land Board to partition the block. Tho Bame applied to succession orders. _ If thoirs did not apply foy succession orders within six months tho Judge himself could apply for them. Tho main object was to got tho titles of Nativo land cleaned. Tho first foundation "of a good Nativo policy was to have Nativo land titles clean and up to date. Or.e great alteration was with regard to tho purchase of Native land by the Crown. At present, if there wero.over ten ownr.rs, the Crown had to call a meeting of assembled owners, and they

found that it was qjmost impossible for the Crown to purchase in that way. The Bill proposed a reversion to the old system of purchasing individual interests, always under the same rules as were in the present Act, and with the proviso that tho Crown did-not thereby render tlfe Natives landless, and did not give any less for the land than the Government valuation.' Existing safeguards being retained, he proposed to allow the Crown to purchase individual interests instead of calling .meetings of assembled owners. Mr. N-niis: Von have the alternative. Mr.. Hcrrios: We can still call a meetir.;; ci assembled owners if wo liko, but v.-e take the still greater power of purchasing individual Native interests. Sir-J. Ward: The Crown will give the right of purchase? Mr. Herries: If a proclamation is put on, and that is the case at the present moment, as tho hon. gentloman knows. It was proposed, he continued, to empower the Crown to purchase (my vested land or individual interest ill vested land, in the hands of the, Public Trustee the Moari Land Board, theNativo Trubt Commissioner, or any other Trustee. Mr. Ngata: You will buy from the Trustee. ' Tho Freehold Option. Mr. Herries: No, from the owner. He continued that tenants would be given the right of purchasing from tho Crown the freehold of land that the Crown had acquired from tho-Natives. Such purchases would be subject always ito the limitation clauses of the Land Aot. In the event of a tenant holding too much land to enable him to make a declaration, he would only be allowed to take up so much land aB he could make a declaration in respcct of. These were the principal new items in the Bill, but there were a good many minor alterations, which had been suggested by various people connected with tho administration of the Native Land Act. Judges and lawyers had made a number of suggestions, from their experience of tho working of tho Act of 1909, which he believed would commend themselves to members of the House. The Rating System. Sir Joseph Ward: I 9 any alteration in tho system of rating Native lands proposed ? Mr. Herries: Not in this Bill j that is coming down in another -Bill which will be introduced probably next week. Mr. Glover (Auckland Central) askedwhether any provision was made for preventing Natives from whom land was purchased from becoming landless. Mr. Herries: Tho Act of 1909 makes provision for that, and the provision is not being repealed. Sir Joseph Ward: Do you intend to put the Bill through this session P Mr. Herries: Certainly I Sir Joseph Ward: You say it 1b not going to tho Native Affairs Committee for about a fortnight. How long will it bo there? Prospeots of tho Bill. Mr. Herries: It all depends upon how the committee receive it. It should not be there more than two or three days. It will then depend on tho House. Sir Joseph Ward: Do you propose to take evidence? Mr. Herries: I do not think that is necessary. Answering Mr. Ngata, Mr Herries said that an amendment of the West Coast Settlement Reserves Act was coming down independently of the present Bill. Proteotlng thjo Natives. The member for Eastern Maori next asked the Minister whether he had fullj; considered the question of retaining an adequacy of land for Natives on alienation. The provisions in tho 1909 Aot wore, said Mr,. Ngata, weak in the respect that the ( bodies responsible for the administration of the Act had not kept sufficiently'beforo t'hem the necessity of • seeing that provision was made for- Native owners before confirming alienation. Now, in view of the'honourable i gentloman's proposal to revert to "tha , old system of purchasing from individual owners, ho was very much afraid that tho nccessary inquiries would not | bj mado by the Land Purchase officers ■ beforo the administration issued a pro- , clamation malting such land Crown . land. He mentioned the matter because . he saw that they were coming now [ almost to the end of the available Na- , tivo land that was suitable-for settlej nient. Neither the Native Minister nor his colleagues were chasing the pumice j land in the Taupo district. It was the 5 best land that was wanted. This land 1 was in districts highly improved, where 5 the remaining Native lands were rapidly i disappearing—tho Hawke's Bay, Wai--3 rarapa, and Wanganui districts, and 1 others. The question for tho Goverhj ment was whether proper provision - could be made for Native owners be- . -fore they finally l parted with their lands.

A Modest Demand. Mr. H. G. ELL (Christchurch South) asked that "a list of all 'the Natives interested in the Bill" should bo laid upon tho table. He was not going to remain idle, h'e added, while an attempt was oeing mado to wheedle out of the Natives the little remaining land that thoy had. He would associate himself with Mr. Ngata in resisting tho Government proposals.

Against Landlordism. Mr. G. V. PEARCE (Patea) condemned tho system by which Native Land Boards put tenants on . Native lands. Tlieso settlers were in such a position that they improved the land for the Maoris and increased their own rentals at tho same time. This had led to the fostering of Native landlords, and he objected to landlords of all kinds. He believed in small freeholds, and ho believed in tho Maoris owning their land and working it in the same way as Europeans. The Bill would be thoroughly understood by North Island members, and would bo approved by | thom.

Mr. C. A. WILKINSON (Egmont) said ho did not wish to do any injustico to tho Natives, but tho settler was not being fairly treated under tho present leases. lio thought it would be possible to treat tho settlers fairly without detrimentally affecting the Natives. At present the settlers .were being charged high rentals and were not allowed sufficient for improvements at the oud of

their leaso to encourage them to farm "their lands to their full capacity.

Southern Viewpoints. Mr. G. WITTY (Riccarton) charged tho North Island members with a design to rob tho Natives of their land, careless of what tho future of tho Natives would be.

Mr. W. NOSWORTHY (Ashburton) said that as a South Island member he welcomed tho Bill, believing as ho did that the Bill would be au inestimable boon to tho country as a whole. lie would promise that before next election ho would visit some more electorates besides his own and explain tho Native land policy of the lato Government. Ho maintained that tho Native land question was fast becoming a livo question in tho south. He did not want to hurt tho Natives, but tho Maoris could not bo allowed to run tho country. Thoy were now having their land developed, and wero paying nothing in the way of rates and taxes, and members of the Reform party could not allow this to go on. If the Opposition thought they could dictate the Native land policy of tho .country they were making a grave mistake.

Assurance From the Minister. The Hon. W. H. HERRIES said he wanted to got the Bill through, and he would try to pour oil on the troubled waters. He wished to assure honourable gentlemen from the South Island that he, for one, would never allow any injustice to thn, Natives. Ho could assure honourable gentlemen that this Bill did no injustico to the Natives.Mr. Ngata: Not on;the face of it. Mr. Herries' urged that the Bill did not in fact inflict injustice on- Maoris. Ho would, however, bo prepared to accept an amendment from tho honourable gentleman to provide that Natives should not be mado landless. After-all this would be like shutting the door after tho horse was stolon. Now half tho Natives were landless, having been made so by confiscation in the war-time, and by purchase by tho Government. He could not, of course, give all f(ho Natives land, becauso all the Native land was allocated to certain individuals. But ho would never bo a party to compulsory acquisition of Native land ; He would rather go out of office as Native Minister. This Bill was intended' to enablo the Crown to come to an agreement with the Natives, if they wero willing to sell, and tho Bill extended the power of tho Crown to purchase becauso it was found that under the present system the Crown was frequently circumvented by interested pakehas and pakeha lawyers, who came to meetings of owners with their pockets stuffed with proxies. By these men the Crown was defeated in the interests of speculators. He only wanted to put tho Crown on as' good a footing or on a better footing than tho speculator. Itis did not moan that the Crown would compulsorily acquire land. To this he would never agree.

\ Tho point mentioned by Mr. Ngata relating to mortgages ho would consider, and he would probably accept an amendment from Mr. Ngata in tho Native Affairs Committee. In roply to Mr. Ell he said the Bill did provide for making a list of Natives owning land, but the completion of this list would take fivo or Bis years. The work was especially difficult because many Natives owned shares in. various blocks undor different names. He hoped honoWable members would allow tbo Governor's Messago to go through, study tho Bill, and t'hea take a big debate on the motion to commit the Bill. Settlers arid Natives. SIB WALTER BUCHANAN (Wairarapa) dealt with tho chargo • lovelled by Mr. Witty against tho North Island, settlers. He denied that injustice had been done to the Natives, speaking generally, although it might be true that Europeans had been unjust to Natives iu individual instancos just as ono European was sometimes unjust to another. Ho looked upon the Natives in his district ns his friends, and would bo ashamed if ho did not do his best in tho House and out of it to secure them justice. Mr. Witty had also asserted that Mr. Wilkinson had complained that tho Natives in his district had 60,000 acres. Mr. Witty's statement was absolutely wide of the fact. Tho settlors in tho North Island were just as anxiouß as any in the South Island to do justice to tho Natives. Some members on the Opposition sido had scoffed, at tho idoa ot £2 per aero being paid for improvements effected on bush lands. As a fact, it had' cost £11 per acre to clear, sow, stump, and plough an area of bush land held «by himself. More Critics. Mr. H. ATMORE (Nelson) said that the history of Maori land transactions in New Zealand was not one of which tho Europeans could be proud. Mr. J. CRAIGIE (Timaru) said that a few weeks ago ho had declared that thero was a great deal of dummyism on the part of land sharks in connection with Native land dealings. Ho had since received several letters stating that what he had said was quite true. He urged that justice should be done to the Nativeß.

Mr. G. LATJKENSON (Lyttelton) said that however desirous the Minister of Native Affairs might be of doing justice to the Maoris, it was a fact that behind him and behind the Government was a gang of rapacious men who were desirous ot getting hold of tho remaining Native lands. 'Mr. L.< M. ISITT (Christchurch North) gave Mr. Herries credit for being sincerely sympathetic in regard to tho Natives and their interests, but it was no mere figure of speech to say that behind him wore men who were rapacious, greedy, and eager to get hold of tho lands of the Natives. Several Government members: Name them! Name them! (Uproar.) The Acting-Chairman of Committees (Mr. Lee): Order! Order! Mr. Isitt said that he did not eay that there were not some of these men in the House, but he was not referring to them. He was referring to certain supporters of tho Government.

Tha Unsophisticated Maori. M.r J. PAYNE (Grey Lynn) followod other Opposition members in accusing tho Government of robbing the Natives. Ho professed sorrow for tho poor unsophisticated Natives, ,and declared that the Europeans were "a mean skunking crowd." , , , Mr. T. BUXTON (Tomuka) protested against tho individualisation of titles to allow Maoris to sell their lands as they choso. The Maoris, h© said, were not skilled in business. A Maori had come into his office and in consideration of a loan of £50 offered to .give him an order to receivo a rent of £100 in six months. Did the Native know tho value of his land? Mr. Young: Ho knew the value or his order —no good at all. Mr. W. A. VEITCH (Wanganui) said that he was satistiod that in some leasos of which ho had knowledgo tho improvements put on land by tho tenants certainly ought to bo more adequately protected. Ho would suggest that tho Crown buy as much land as possible, and give tho occupants a reasonable lease.

Temptation or Compulsion? Tho Hon. A. T. NGATA (Eastern Maori) replied'to Mr. Pearco'B talk about Maori landlords. Tho agitation about tho West Coast leases oamo not from the original lesseos, who had now sublet and become landlords, but from the sub-leesees. Tho original; lessees had made a groat doal of money, and had in Eomo instances leased tho lands back to tho Nativos at very much increased ' rentals. Ho advised tho Minister that if ho wanted tho Bill to go through ho must muzzlo the Taranaki members, and especially Jfr. Pea roe, who was "like a rod rag to a bull." (Laughter.) It struck him that although the Native Minister- was

not putting compulsion upon the Natives, ho was offering tUio' strongest temptation on the biggest scale that had over been offered to the Maori race except at tho time of the sugar and flour policy. That was half a century ago. It was because he (Mr. Ngata) was conscious of the weakness of 'liis own people that he felt that possibly a policy of compulsion would be preferable to tho policy of insidious temptation such as the Bill proposed. He urged that Natives ought to be assisted to farm their, own lands by some sort of advances scheme. He suggested that tho Native Minister was finding, as other Nativo Ministers had found, that he could not go very far from tho beaten track in administering the Native Department..

Mr. W. D. S. MACDONALD (Bay of Plenty) defended the Natives, who, ho said, had never had a reaj opportunity in tne past of farming their own lands. Ho hoped that when the Bill passed it would contain some provisions to permit of the Natives being treated somewhat in tho same way &b whito settlers were treated.

Tho Improvident Native. Tho Hon. D. BUDDO (Kaiapoi) said his objection' to tho Bill waa that it would allow the Crown to " get round the Nativo" to .sell his land, and dispose of it to the occupier. Mr. C. PARATA (bouthern Maori) said ho. hoped the Minister would 6ee that justice was done to the Native people, for t'hey had not had a fair run in the past. Much of their land had been purchased at absurdly cheap prices. Further, the Maoris ought not to be allowed to sell : tlieir lands, because it was not in their nature to keep • money when they had it. Mr. H. J. H. OKEY (Taranaki) said that the North Island members were not in truth the set of robberß the Opposition represented them to be. The Bill was read a first time, read a second timo pro forma, and referred to the Native Affairs Committee. AUCKLAND HALF-HOLIDAY. Mr. H. ATMORE, for the Joint Committee on Bills, reported that the committee had held that the Auckland Weekly Half-Holiday Bill was a local Bill. Mr. J. H. BRADNEY (Auckland West) then asked loavo to move that the Bill be allowed to proceed as a local Bill, notwithstanding that it had been introduced as a publio Bill, and that all past proceedings in regard to tho Bill bo validated. Leave was granted, and the motion was agreed to on tie voices.