LAND BILL

Dominion, Volume 7, Issue 1875, 8 October 1913, Page 4

LAND BILL

THE DEBATE RESUMED. BRINCINC OUT THE FREEHOLDERS, ' Mr. H. J. H. OKEY (TaranaM) resumed the debate on the Land Laws Amendment Bill. He approved entirely of tHo freehold l policy embodied in the Bill. One thing this Bill had dono was to bring out the freeholders on tho othen side of the House. Tlio Leader of the Opposition had declared that lie was a'''freeholder. None of tho other tenures had proved to be satisfactory to tho man on tho land. The holder of the feo carried considerable responsibilities in that lie might bo callcd upon to pay whatever might be required of him in local and general taxation. Ho bolioveth that everything possible should bo dono to prevent reaggregation, but it was most important that in doing thi9 tho law should not injure the title of the land in such a, way) as to make it an unsafe security for a loan. It was important that the law should allow financial institutions to take over land in tho event of default being mado in the repayment of moneys lent against tho land. He hoped the provisions in the Bill relating to these matters would be fully discussed. It was true .that the country did not want aggregation, but it did not want to make the land Unsafe as a security. He approved also of the proposals in tho Bill to enable business men, men from the cities, who frequently , developed into the best class of farmers, to go on the land. There was any amount of land suitable for subdivision into small areas and closo settlement. Land was not suitable for this unless it was near to dairy factories and moans of communication, and in order to make such land availablo the Government should set asido a sum-each year. Ho held that tho Government had as much right to set aside a sum for this purpose as for workers' homes. 0

Twenty Years Ago. Mr. J. C. THOMSON (Wallace) noted with satisfaction the proposals in tho Bill permitting holders of certain leaseholds to convert their title into tho freehold. Tho country was ripo for a real live policy of closer settlement, and ho would support the Government in any proposal to accelerate closer settlement and so increaso tho productiveness of the country. Mr. M»ssoy, ho said, had not always been a believer in closer settlement, havingvQiico.declared against the Hon. JoluiM'Kenzie's Bill, becauso ho objected to the borrowing of largo sums, of money for tho purchase of laud iii this country and so mortaging our lands to th > English capitalist, and becauso he did not believe in tho compulsory acquisition of land. Ho asked tho Prime Minister to explain his volte face. He reminded tho Government also that they were 'not whole-hearted, freeholders, since they proposed to reservo from freehold occupation some nino million acres of national endowment land. Ho urged that as land settlement could not go ahead without roads, tho Government ought to institute a more vigorous public works policy. Proventing Aggregation. Mr. G. J. ANDERSON (Mataura) said he agreed with much that the last speaker had said, but ho questioned the wisdom or ( tho fairness of quoting against tho Prime Minister something ho had said twenty years ago. The thing that must bo done, ho contended, was to promoto the settlement of firstclass lands in every possible way. Ho agreed with tho opinion expressed that the Bill did not make enough provision for Bmall sottlement. Ho urged the Houso to put party asido in dealing with the land question, as was done in the case of Education and Defence. The Bill certainly embodied a better system of land legislation than existed at present: Tho Bill embodied the first real attempt that had been made in this country to prevent 'aggregation. His own view w.as that the way to make aggregation impossible would bo to insist that an owner should reside' upon his land. If tho Houso would not consent to that, at least it should be made impossible for anyone to aggregate holdings taken up under tho Land Act. ,

Good and Bad Mixed. Mr. R. M'CALLUM (Wairau) said that tho Bill before the House was a bad one, although there wero a few good things in it. In tho main it was so overwhelmingly bad tha,t ho would have no hesitation in voting against it on a division. He claimed that h6 was one of tho soundest freeholders in tho country. (Laughter.) Mr. Pearce: You are not sound' on anything. Mr. M'Callum complained that n,n attempt; was being made to put Stateassisted, settlers on a level with tho old pioneers (from whoso stock ho waß sprung), who had "subdued tho forest, drained tho swamp, and made their own freeholds." He denounced what he described'as tho corrupt policy of putting advantageous terms in' existing leases. So far as all futuro tenancies were concerned, the right to acquire tho freohold should bo given, but it should not extend to existing leases. He gave notice that in Committee ho would move an amendment, providing that no State money should bo lent to Crown tenants acquiring their holdings. A Leasehold Supporter. ' Mr. G. WITTY (Riccarton) said that tho Govornment party was not playing tho game. It should put up man for man with the Opposition in discussing tho Bill. He wont on to contend that tho leasehold was a better tenure than tho freehold, which was "tho tenancy of tho moneylender." The Primo Minister with his policy would do moro to unsettle tho land than to settle it. Mr. F. H. Smith: Ho has unsettled you. Mr. Witty said that former Governments had put thousands of people on tho land, where the present Government would put ten with the methods they had aclopted. Men in the past had been put upon tho land, and had become wealthy, although in ■ tho beginning they had not a shilling. In prosperity theso men had turned round and bitten the hand that fed thorn. Mr. Witty said that tho Prime Minister had laid it down that every man should own the land ho worked. Would he apply this to private leasehold lands and to education endowments? Tho name of the Prime Minister of to-d<\y would in futuro bo cursed as that of tho man who aold tho birthright of tho people.

Tho Change in Five Years. Mr. G. V. I'KAROE (I'atca) said that what had struck him in the debate was tho dilfercnco that had como about in the Houso since ho had como into it, a strong freeholder, a few years ago. Then tho moro mention of tho freehold raised a roar of protest from tho other side. Now they protested, when they protested at all, in whispers.' The Leader of tho Opposition had even declared that 110 was in favour of tlio freehold. His own advocacy of the freehold was' based 011 his belief that a man made better uso of his land when he held the freehold of it, and that for this reason a man could livo 011 smaller holdings. To show how this ■Bill was appreciated by tho small farmers he read a resolution adopted by tho executive of tho Taranaki Farmers' Union, to the offect that the executive offer thanks and gratitude to tlio Primo Minister for having introduced such a beneficial measure as tho Land Laws Amendment Bill. Ho approved strongly of Clauso 18 of tho Bill, which permitted a business man in a town to buy a section and improve it so that by and by 110 could, if 110 desired, set up his son as a fanner. This, lie thought, wa.3 tho best clauso that kaci over been put in the land laws of this country. What they should aim at was to attract the town population into the country, and so stop in a degreo tho drift of population to the towns. Ho was very pleased also to seo in tho Bill a clause prohibiting a man successful at one ballot from competing at another ballot for seven years. The large number of applicants at ballots, often quoted, was apt to bo misleading, caused as it was by the faulty valuing of sections. Men who knew tho value of land saw that a certain section, had been under-valued, and they competed for it. It became a Tatteraall's sweep. And at the same tnno somo of the other sections wero not applied for at all. Ho did not agree with tho member for Awarua that there was any danger of "dummyism" under tho clauso permitting town people to obtain sections, and to hold them without residing on them. He was convinced that tho National Endowments would havo to bo exchanged for other lands, because ho knew of endowments in liis district, rough bush country, which men would not tako up under tho present insecure tenure. If men were to be induced to take up these lands and make them productive, they must be given a freehold title to thom. In his opinion tho Bill was one of the best that had. ever been brought into the House ;, the people of tho country would approve of it, and it would increase the pioductivity of the land of New Zealand.

"The People's Birthright." Mr. •G. LAURENSON (Lyttelton) challenged the statement that tlio' country approved of tho Bill. He was of opinioujthafc in Wellington and in Auckland in,'any public meeting called a majority of that meeting would condemn the Bilf. Mr. lea rco: Come up to Patea. Mr. Laurenson: Well, take Patea. He went on to repeat his declaration that a public meeting in Patea would condemn the Bill. In six months or so, when tho people <!ame to understand tho Bill, the people would condemn tho Government for having botrayed the rights of all tho people to a section of tho people. As soon as the Crown leaseholders became so numerous —29,300 — as to bo a powor in tho land, tho Government had given them the freehold as a bribe. Ho would vote against the Bill if his woro tho only vote recorded against it. He was strongly opposed to the land, the people's birthright, bouig alienated. The Promise of tho Freehold. SIR WALTER BUCHANAN (Wairarapa) said that it made one sad to listen Ito doleful orations such as had been delivered by tho last honourablo gentleman, and to visualise the pic- ! turo that ho: must havo in his mind of tho future of land occupation in New Zealand. Incidentlly, Mr. Laurenson had taken it upon himself,to instruct practical farmers in regard to such matters as dealing with the' rabbit pest.' He had said that tlio best remedy was to use rabbit-netting, and had blamed tho Government for not making provision for it in tho Bill. (Laughter.) In providing for tho freehold, the Bill would tend to produce a condition of things in which tlio capital suuk in the land ■instead of being owned by a foreign money-londer would ba owned by the occupier. , An Opposition member: By the mortgagee. . Sir Walter Buchanan said that too much was made of tho mortgagee. Would it be said that borrowing should cease becauso of tho mistakes of a few ? Another merit of tho Bill was that it made provision for tho cutting up of largo estates. Did honourablo gentlemen opposite object -to thatp Mr. MacDonalil: That was tho law for years..

Sir Walter Buchanan: Yes ( but it is extended and improved in this Bill. It was very necessary, he continued, that there should bo a reclassification of tlio lands of tho Dominion. Under tho law a3 it stood a settler might be deprived of his land until ho held only an area that would suffice to carry three hundred. sheep. Land valued at £40 an acre and more than that was at present placed in tho sauio category as land valued nt £4 an acre unimproved value. Ho Imped that something would be dono to remedy this state of affairs when the Bill was in Committee. The Government in taking over largo estates should discriminate between those that wero improved and those that wore neglected. Tho landowner who did his duty by the land Bhould bo the last to have his land taken away from him. Thero was great need of a board to hear appeals against over-valuation of land. He challenged a statement of tho member for Wairau that seven and a half per cent, was being charged for money. The ordinary rate was five and a half and six per cent. Ho knew of a caso in which a Canterbury borrower requiring £20,000 had to pay 8 per cent. Mr. Ti'itty: And one and a half per cent, procuration feo as well. Sir Walter Buchanan said that the circumstances -in this case wore quite exceptional. Ho could not well go into them. Finally ho remarked that tho Bill would do a great deal of good, and would satisfy tho country as a whole. The National Estate. Mr. G.. W. RUSSELL (Avon) said -that although New Zealand had been sottled only somo 50 years all tho national estate in laud had been dissipated, and as the Lands Report showed not moro than 100,000 acres of firstclass land remained for subdivision and settlement.. When lie thought of tho work done under the leasehold, and when he heard the contemptuous references made to the leasehold tenure by tho lion, mombor for I'atea and his friends lie wondered whether those honourable gentlemon understood what tho position was 20 years ago. Then our population was leaving us rapidly, and money was worth not 6 per cent., but 10 per cent. This very undesirable state of affairs had been remedied by the policy of the late Liberal Government. Sir. l'earce: By the separator and tho refrigerator. Mr. Russell said he was not so much opposed to the granting of tho freehold to the tenants under the 999 years' lease as was the member for Lyttelton, because in his opinion tlio Stato had virtually parted with that land absolutely. But tho other proposals for tho giving of tho freehold would materially reduce the national revenue, and this would have to he taken into consideration. The freehold was being lauded bv tho Government and their supporters, but this Bill did not touch much of the leasehold land in endowments of one sort and another throughout tho country. In actual fact, of the '10 millions of acres in occupation in New Zealand, thero wore only 16 millions of acres hold in freehold.

I Mr. Masse.v: That's wrong. Mr. Russell: I tell the lioiiourablo gentleman it is not wrong. Mr. Massey: I know exactly where you got your figures. Mr. Russell went on to quote his figures in detail with tho objeet of showing that his statement was correct, and also that there was no more land available on which men from tho cities or elsewhere could be settled. The Bill, he said, did nob provide any means whatever whereby land could be provided for tho landless. In certain areas, notably Hawke's Bay and Marlborough, the holdings were large and tho holders few. His opinion was that whereover it was possible tho sheep man would havo to give way to tho dairy farmer. Mr. Wilson: That doesn't apply to Nelson and 'Marlborough. Mr. E. Newman: Nor to Hawke's Bay. Mr. llussell said that lie was not prepared to particularise, but ho did believe that sheep would not be raised in tho future except 011 tho high country, and our dairy factories would be numbered not in hundreds, as at present, but in thousands. In his opinion tho problem of tho future was liow to obtain land for the landless people. One proposal put forward was that moro land should be purchased for settlement, and whilo tho Government accepted this policy, as a party, they had declared that borrowing for this purpose could not go 011 indefinitely. Another proposal was to increase the ' graduated land ta'x, but unless the graduated tax was made to apply to smaller holdings, it would not materially increase tho number of settlers on the land of this country. Of same of the machinery clahses in tho Bill 110 approved, but 110 did not think it would como near to settling tho land problem. A Small Farmers' Bill.

Mr. A. HARRIS (Waitemata) agreed with the member for Avon that tho problem to be solved was how to put landless peoplo on the land, but lie did not agree that tho Bill would not do anything to achiovo that object. The clause making it possible for town men to go on the land would certainly tend in this direction. Also tho provisions which oucouraged a private owner to cut up his land would tend to increase tho number of settlers on tho land. He was not alarmed by Mr. Laurenson's statement that tho peoplo in the cities would be opposed to tho Bill, for ho was suro that tho Bill would be approved by the peoplo right through the country. It was a small farmers' Bill, and nothing could put a contented population on tho land except the freehold tenure. He believed the measure would have tho hearty approval of every progressive man and woman in tho country. •

Hon. D. Buddo's Views. The Hon. D. BUDDO (Kaiapoi) said ho did not think any considerable liumbor of holders of 999 years' leases would tako up tho freehold, becauso the lease was a bettor tenure for them than tho freehold. The fault that he found with the Bill was that it did not provide for any moro close settlement, but only gave the present settlers certain privileges. Those who knew the heavy burdens imposed upon tho land in the Old Country must know that tho land ot this country would bear an increasingly heavy load in the future. It was, therefore, he argued, in the interests of the fanner that a largo area should bo held by the State. He did not think tho Prime Minister had been well advised to purchase for settlement tlio poor land lie had been buying lately. Much of this land would never bo really valuable. Some clauses in the Bill he approved, but ho did not approve of tho proposal that the bona-fide settler ready to settle at once on his holding should bo required I ibTiidhipete for it with a man from tlio city, who was exempted from residence. He was very strongly of-opinion that the security of tonuro which this Bill proposed to give to holders of pastoral licenses had been too long dolayed, and the lands had been allowed to deteriorate,Ho ventured to say that tho clauses intended to prevent aggregation would not bo successful., In any case, ho was not very strongly opposed to aggrega-. tion on very light lands, nor was ho in favour of cutting-up areas of poor land. But in rich areas there should be a ponalising tax against the adding of ono farm to another.

The Assistance to City Men. / Mr. F. H. SMITH (Waitalci) said ho did not think a man who had been once successful at a ballot should ever bo ngain admitted to a land ballot. He was at a loss to understand • how tho Leader of tho Opposition had-changed his opinion about the freehold, becauso all' tho previous Land Bills had been leasehold Bills. He thought Clause 18, permitting city men to acquire land in the country, had possibilities for good, but it was also a most dangerous clause, in that it might lead to wealthy peoplo acquiring land, . putting shepherds on it, and living themselves in tho towns. 1 '

Mr. A. E. GLOVER (Auckland Central) declared that if any • Government tampered with the National Endowments ~ their barque would inevitably bo shipwrecked. . Wliilo supporting the optional tenure, he stated, he was opposed to the aggregation of large estates. Causes of Land Hunger. Mr. 11. SCOTT (Otago Central) said that the Bill must meet with approbation from the man on the land. Ho recognised that it was impossible ■. to draft a perfect Land Bill, which would remain perfect for all time, for the perfect Bill of to-day would not meet tlio changcd conditions of a few years hence. Ho was of opinion that conditions in the present did not warrant any more facilities being offered for men to go on the land than were at present offering. Every man in- the country could not be .put on the land. The unemployed could not be taken out of the cities and put on the land. Who would finance^them? The fact was that now men with capital could get on tho ,nuen nnrket all the land of whatever class they wanted. Much was made of tho wealth some of tho pioneer settlers had acquired, but they had had to struggle through many lean years, and they had . finallv obtained for themselves a competency, not through tho policy of the Liberal Government, but through tl>o increased prices of our produce. In the same way very little had been said about "our wool kings" in tho years when wool was cheap. An late as 1895 lie had himself bought sheep, good sheen, at twopence a head. In his "opinion thero was no shortage of land now for men with a little capital, and the opportunities offering to voung men were as good as they were 20 rears ago. He believed in the freehold as opposed to the leasehold. The freehold .bound a man to the land, and the leasehold tempted him to wfsrk out the land and go nway. Mr. Russell: You don't do that with your leasehold? Mr. 'Scott said that he did not. hut he lived on a niece of freehold, and this tied him to the land. Mr. Fisher (to Mr. Russell): What do you do with vour tenants? Mr. Russell: Well, if I had you for one. I would watch Ton verv closely. Mr. Scott declared that the land hunger frequently spoken of wn.s due entirely to the hirrh prices of the products of the. soil- He approved of the proposals in the Bill relating to pastoral runs. Tho debate was in clanger of breaking down, it appeared, and as Air. Mnswy was not in tho Chamber. Mr. TTorrips rose to speak when the question had been put. Policy of tho Future, Tlie Hon. W. H. HERRIES said the Bill was favoured by all the men on

tlio land, and it seemed to him that all tho criticism of tho Bill 'was levelled against the policy of tho Bill. Times had changed with the Opposition party. Tho member for Lyttelton remained an implacable leaseholder, but most of tho others patted the Bill gently 011 tho back, and they would let it go through. As tho Leader of tho Opposition had said, tho policy of this country for the future must bo a limited freehold. Tho Bill would commend itself to tho people engaged in tilling "tlio land, and, tliis being so, it should commend itself to tho House. The member for Wairau lia.d taunted certain members of tho Government party with having changed their views, but what must be said of some members of tho Opposition sido who now supported a Bill which, when they wero in powor, they would havo condemned roundly? Ho did not think tlio member for Lyttelton, oven, would press for a division, and tho Bill would bo allowed to go through unopposed. Tho policy of iSow Zealand for the future must bo to settlo tho land with small freeholders, who would till tho land bettor, and make it moro prosperous than it had been before.

Mr. Buxton: As you have in Hawko'a Bay now. Mr. Hcrries said a good deal was said about Hawko's Bay, but tho land there was not suitable for closo settlement for dairying. Taranaki was par excellence -a dairying district, but a great deal of what was said about Hawko's Bay was nonsense. An honourable member: .What about Nativo land ?

Mr. Hcrries said 110 was prepared to buy every aero of Nativo land that wi available for purchaso, but at present he had to buy under the settled owners' clause/ and 110 was baulked by pakeha lawyers who camo along with their pockets stuffed full of proxies. Ho hoped to remedy this when 110 brought down his Land Bill next year. Ho congratulated' tho Prime Minister .011 having introduced tho Bill, and said ho would havo much pleasure in supporting it. Still a Leaseholder. Mr. G. FORBES (Hurunui) said that tho Government, having now applied tlio freehold principle to most of tho Crown leases, might bo expccted to go on and make the principfo applicable to endowment land, ana to private leases. He maintained, however, that a great deal of good had befen dono by the leasehold, and. moro good would yet be done. Ho was totally opposed to selling tho lands of tho peoplo, and he would vote against the Bill, as he would vote against every Bill which proposed to alienate the public estate in land. But now that tho freehold was tho policy of tho Government, steps must bo taken to «eo that there should bo 110 aggregation, and to seo that tho settlement should bo on small areas and not on big holdings. The debate was adjourned on thq motion of Mr. G. R. Sykos, and tho House roso at 0.50 a.m.